Energy Company Charges

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

The right hon. Lady suggests that the competition test, which is new, will be a distant solution and that action is needed in the meantime. The competition test is alive now and we expect the first results shortly. This is not something we are kicking into the long grass; this is live. She raises a legitimate point on prepayment meters, as other Members have from across the House. Do not misconstrue me: this is a serious point and she is right to raise it. The Government take it very seriously.

We also take seriously the crux of today’s debate: are customers who elect to pay by cash or cheque, by standard payment through the post or at the post office, being unfairly penalised for doing so? That is not the same as saying that everybody should pay the same. I am afraid that there may be a genuine difference of opinion on that point. It is not our view that all customers should pay the same. There should be healthy competition, but—and it is a very important but—the differential between paying by direct debit and paying by cash or cheque should be cost-reflective and cost-reflective only. That is a key element of the licence condition under which energy suppliers operate. It is vital that Ofgem looks at that forensically and in detail, and answers to Ministers who have asked whether that is really happening.

[Albert Owen]

Will the Minister give way?

[Gregory Barker]

In just a moment. I want to make some progress and I have to give my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford time to wrap up.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow drilled to the centre of the issue when he raised the fact that Spark Energy is charging a premium of £300-plus. That is staggering. Scottish Power, one of the big six created by the Labour party, is offering a premium—or a discount, depending on which way we look at it—of £99. The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) asked why we were not doing anything. We are doing something: there is already a specific ongoing investigation into Scottish Power. This is not just about Scottish Power, however: for npower, that figure is £95. As part of the competition test, we have asked Ofgem to look at all the energy suppliers to ensure genuine cost reflection. We want to know why these costs are so much more than those charged by other utilities providers, such as water and telephone companies.

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[Gregory Barker]

Ofgem will be reporting in the near future as part of the competition test. It has the necessary powers, and we have made it clear that we expect a forensic analysis of the cost differentials and criteria.

This is not a new phenomenon, however. The Labour party had 13 years to crack it, but it took no action. Moreover, the Leader of the Opposition spent two years as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, so the question is not “Why has it taken since 2011?”, but “Why did Labour do nothing, between 1997 and 2010, when it had the time, the power, the majority and the authority?” What did Labour do? Zero, zip, nothing. So before they ask, in high dudgeon, why we are not acting faster, would they please explain why they did nothing to help consumers for 13 years? When we get a credible answer, we will give their criticisms more credit.

I do not want to go off on a completely partisan rant, however, because some good questions have been raised, and I do not want to diminish their seriousness. We take the issue of prepayment meters and standard payments seriously, but we are also looking at direct debits. Some 55% of people pay by direct debit and 45% pay by standard payment.

[Albert Owen]

Did I understand the Minister correctly? On cost reflection, he said that Ofgem still had the power to intervene over the licence. I understood that in 2012 it gave up that power and introduced the retail market review. Is he now saying that Ofgem can still exercise that power? If so, why does he not tell it to do so? Then this debate would be null and void.

[Gregory Barker]

We have done it already. The hon. Gentleman was not listening. We have spoken to Ofgem, and it has confirmed publicly what we have discussed privately—that this will form a key part of the competition assessment. That is a new development, and a sign that the Government take this seriously and are on the side of consumers. We will not wait 13 years to do something about it.

We are not just acting for people on prepayment meters or trying to get a better deal for people who pay by a standard payment method; we are taking action to get a better deal for people on direct debits as well, because they do not always get a fantastic deal. We know that many people do not realise they are inadvertently building up stores of credit with the energy companies, as has been highlighted by Members on both sides of the House, including the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), I believe. We will soon be announcing proposals that will give consumers a much better deal. That is just one of the measures we are taking to get a better deal for British consumers, particularly the most vulnerable, and comes on top of the £135 warm home discount, guaranteed winter fuel payments for pensioners and energy efficiency support for the most vulnerable through the ECO.

This has been a good debate. I am pleased that we were able to benefit from expertise from across the House and that the concerns shared across the House on this issue were properly aired. I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Harlow and for Chatham and Aylesford for bringing it to the Floor of the House and allowing us to demonstrate that this coalition is taking action for British consumers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Thursday 28th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

My hon. Friend will not have long to wait before we publish the community energy strategy. This Government are gripping the potential of community strategy. No previous Government have recognised the potential of communities to take control of energy. Thanks to innovation and new technologies, and the financial support we are putting in place, community energy has an exciting future, solar included.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Distribution and grid transmission costs account for between 20% and 25% of energy bills. Areas such as mine, which produce an awful lot of electricity, pay even more for their electricity. When will the Government review the transmission system so that we can have a level playing field across the country and National Grid can act in the national interest?

Energy Price Freeze

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Albert Owen]

I am not going to give way, as the hon. Gentleman has had a good number of interventions on that. VAT is one reason for the situation he describes.

For other things the hon. Gentleman has to look not to Europe but to his own Front-Bench team, because the ECO—energy company obligation—was introduced this January by the Government. The Prime Minister boasted that it was one of his flagships of the greenest Government ever and about how the green levies were going up, yet only last week he said he was going to change all that. The Prime Minister is making policy on the hoof—I will never accuse him of being consistent on anything and he is certainly not consistent on energy policy.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Albert Owen]

Yes, I will. I hope that the Minister will give way when he is winding up, too.

[Gregory Barker]

Of course I will. Can the hon. Gentleman give me one example of when any Government Member boasted about levies going up? We may have boasted about policies, but when did we boast about levies going up?

[Albert Owen]

The Prime Minister has said numerous times on the record—I will find this and send it to the Minister—that his Government are the greenest ever and are putting on extra green levies; when he compares our schemes with the Government’s schemes he boasts that these levies are actually increasing to help on that. That is exactly what the Prime Minister has done, and I am sorry that the Minister does not understand his own Prime Minister—it is complicated at times.

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[Albert Owen]

There we are. I am sure that the Minister agrees with the Prime Minister on that, and I thank my hon. Friend. Another levy that this Government have introduced unilaterally and which has pushed prices up is the carbon floor price. It is an Osborne levy if ever there was one. Again, the Government boasted in the Budget about how they were using these levies to control companies and push up costs on business. Those who blame Europe should remember that this is in addition to the European emissions trading scheme, and that companies in Britain are paying more because of what this Government have done this year—the levy came into being in April. It is no use their blaming Europe, or previous Governments. They must take responsibility, because all our constituents are paying the price of this Government's energy policy. That is why we are having the debate today.

I want to mention small businesses, because they are suffering more than the domestic customer. Average rises for small businesses, which do not have the luxury of comparison sites on which they can switch easily, have been up to 20%. I hope that the Government—and, indeed, my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint)—will consider helping those businesses. They cannot absorb the cost, so they pass it on to the customers. That means that we pay for those rises.

I am a member of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change and we had a robust discussion with the energy companies last week. Let us be honest. We hear the Government talking about Labour’s big six, and the Prime Minister leads on that. They forget that in 1993, Sir John Major—that Marxist, who has been accused of being a red by many people for wanting to intervene in the market—set up the integrated system we have now and allowed the then big three to dominate the energy market. Let us not take any lessons about how the big six were set up. Flawed privatisation policies and the former Prime Minister’s interventions allowed the companies to be both generators and retailers. That is the situation. I know that it does not sit comfortably with the Conservative party, but it is a fact and I challenge the Minister to say otherwise.

We have talked about green levies and wholesale prices.

[Gregory Barker]

I promise the House that I will not make a habit of jumping up and down to intervene before I get the chance to wind up. Will the hon. Gentleman give a little of his speech to the 13 years in which the Labour party had the opportunity to shape energy policy? Will he defend what went on in those 13 years?

[Albert Owen]

I am certainly happy to do that. I sat on the Committee that considered the Energy Bill in 2008, which helped many places. It even helped to set up the Hinkley Point agreement that we just reached. The Liberal Democrats voted against the Bill. The Energy Act 2010 gave more powers and responsibilities to the regulator to deal with prices. I remind the Minister that we did not get into office in 2010 and I wish that he would use those powers, which he and his party supported at the time. I am happy. We enacted the Climate Change Act 2008 and we set up the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority to deal with legacy waste in our country. We have a record of which we can be very proud.

We are in the Chamber today after three years of a Government under whom we have seen rocketing prices, and all they want to do is blame somebody else. It is time the Government stood up and were accountable for their actions. The Liberal Democrats are helping them—I am not just having a go at the Tories. We need to get consumer rights, which is why I was happy to hear my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State say in response to an intervention I made earlier that under a Labour Government, a new regulator would look after customers who were not on the gas mains. Switching and the reduction for those on dual fuel do not apply to lots of constituents in this country, and we need to extend the reach. I am very pleased by that commitment, because I have been asking this Government to introduce such a provision—I have asked each Minister, and there have been quite a few—and they have refused to do so.

In this country, we need a party and a Parliament that stand up for the customer—for small businesses and individuals who, year after year, not as a spike but as a trend, are being ripped off by the energy companies. It is time for Parliament to act and today is an opportunity for us to do so. I am proud to support the motion tabled in the name of my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. When we are in government, we will make the changes that the people of this country deserve.

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[Gregory Barker]

No, I will not.

For 13 years, Labour Members presided over the energy sector. For 13 years, they dithered and delayed over crucial investment. In the previous Parliament, fuel poverty rose every single year—something we did not hear from the Opposition Benches. For 13 years, they presided over unprecedented corporate consolidation, creating the real lasting Labour legacy—the big six. It is a cheek for Labour Members to say that we are the friends of the big six when in fact they picked their ministerial team from the big six. Is it not a fact that the leader of the Labour Front-Bench team in the House of Lords is the former head of government affairs at SSE—its top lobbyist? Labour Members are not just friends of the big six and they did not just create the big six—they recruited their team from the big six, so we will hear no more from them on that.

For 13 years, Labour Members let real competition wither while consumers were bombarded with a blizzard of tariffs that, under their watch, grew to over 400. For 13 years, they failed to simplify bills and increase transparency. For 13 years, they failed to build the foundations of a safe, clean energy future. For 13 years, they failed to build a single nuclear power station or get an agreement to do so. For 13 years, they saw Britain languish at the bottom of the European league table for deployed renewable energy. Labour Members stood by and watched British energy go bust. Now they want another go, but we have not finished undoing the damage they did last time.

[Albert Owen]

The Minister mentioned tariffs. The Prime Minister has promised this House and the country that people will be put on the lowest tariff. Will the Minister now tell the House, at this late stage, how much less they will pay for their bills under that policy—or will they go up? Which one will it be?

[Gregory Barker]

It will be different for different people, but from December people will get a much better deal out of this Government, putting them on to the cheapest tariff—something the Labour party did not do in its 13 years in government.

We continue to undo the damage that Labour did to consumers’ bills. We have taken Labour’s renewable heat incentive off energy bills, saving consumers £179. The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) said in our last debate or at questions that £100 was not very much. I have to tell her that Government Members know that, for a lot of families, £100 is a great deal: that £179 on people’s bills was not welcome.

Feed-in Tariffs

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Thursday 9th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Those two things are right at the heart of this new scheme: better value for money and greater predictability, with a regular, predictable degression, particularly for solar PV, allowing us to anticipate, and take advantage of, the falling costs of this exciting technology. I think he will see that industry broadly welcomes these measures.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I agree with the Chair of the Energy and Climate Change Committee that the previous FITs debacle has tarnished the industry, but we have not had an opportunity to discuss this new scheme; had it not been for today’s urgent question, we would not have known about it. Will the Minister print two schedules—one on the FITs that are currently available and another on those that are likely to be introduced in the future—so that business, individuals and community groups can have certainty about what they are entering into?

[Gregory Barker]

Earlier this morning, I placed a written statement in the Library, and I encourage the hon. Gentleman to download the full consultation document. If he does so, he will find all the proposed tariffs, with the various options, set out very clearly. We would welcome his, and all other, contributions to this discussion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Thursday 26th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

My hon. Friend has considerable experience and understanding of consumer behaviour, and she will be pleased to know that we have a specific consumer behavioural insight team in DECC, but the greatest value comes from liaising with retail companies with real track records, such as Kingfisher, B&Q, John Lewis, Sainsbury’s and Tesco. Ultimately, it is the private sector that will guide our thinking and be responsible for the success of the green deal.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

T6. The Secretary of State seemed to misunderstand my question on oil refinery capacity earlier. Oil and petroleum trade bodies tell me that there is a shortage of oil refinery capacity in this country, and that crude oil is exported to India and brought back in. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of that, and how is he responding to that serious question?

Feed-in Tariffs

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Monday 31st October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I have been campaigning for those off the gas grid. Many people who do not have mains gas pay the highest winter fuel costs; is there a possibility that those who have moved over to PV will be looked at specially? Is there a special discount for people who do not have mains gas?

[Gregory Barker]

There is no special discount for those off mains gas, but obviously the counter-factual makes the offer even more attractive for them. I would encourage those such as the hon. Gentleman’s constituents who are off-gas not only to look at solar PV, but to look at the renewable heat incentive and the renewable heat premium payments, which are already out there, and to see whether they can apply for some of the vouchers for the range of technologies that will help them with their heating, which will form a much larger proportion of their annual energy bills than electricity.

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Gregory Barker]

Absolutely. The rural fuel poor are the hardest hit of all. In the last years of the previous Labour Government, they saw, in real terms, the cost of heating their homes increase by 130%—absolutely iniquitous.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that fuel poverty has been rising in the past 18 months as well. We had one of the coldest winters, and external factors contributed to that. With regard to off-grid, the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) conceded that he would meet with myself and other hon. Members. Is the Minister saying that he will look at the possibility of Ofgem, the regulator, giving the same protection to people who are off-grid as it does to those who are on the gas mains? They need that protection against fuel suppliers, not competition and regulation.

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. Protection in this area is overseen by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, who has that portfolio responsibility. I am sure that he will be pleased to meet with the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to discuss this matter, because we are concerned about fairness and practices that have been going on among the heating oil distributors. I know that my hon. Friend takes this issue very seriously.

The independent report being prepared by Professor Hills focuses on whether fuel poverty is distinct from poverty and why measurement is important. It provides an assessment of the current definition of fuel poverty, and identifies and analyses possible modifications and alternatives to the existing definition. I do not wish to be frivolous, but it has been pointed out that under the current definition of fuel poverty Her Majesty the Queen would be in danger of being tipped into those defined as fuel poor, because it takes more than 8.9% of the royal grant to heat the historic royal palaces. We have to ensure that the definition captures those who are in genuine poverty, rather than the more well-off who are making lifestyle choices in spending their income on such things. We have to ensure that we focus our precious resources on those who are genuinely the most vulnerable.

Tackling fuel poverty will be a huge challenge and a key part of the solution is undoubtedly to address the thermal efficiency of the UK housing stock. Britain has some of the oldest, leakiest and most expensive homes to heat in Europe. We urgently need to address this issue. We do not have the highest energy costs; we have among the highest energy bills, because we have to waste so much heating to actually keep warm. Both the carbon emissions reduction target and Warm Front, measures started under the previous Government are continuing, with work being done in the homes of some of those most at risk. However, we recognise that if we were to just continue with these measures, specifically with Warm Front, it would never get us close to meeting our statutory target of eliminating fuel poverty. In fact, Warm Front would take approximately 80 years to get close to dealing with fuel poverty.

We need a game changer and that game changer is the green deal. The coalition flagship Energy Bill, which contains the green deal, has now received Royal Assent. That is a significant milestone on the journey to launching the most ambitious home-improvement programme since the second world war. We expect to commence a public consultation shortly on secondary legislation to develop the precise design and scope of the scheme. We are working closely with the devolved Administrations to ensure that the green deal can be rolled out at scale, really ambitiously, right across Great Britain.

The green deal is necessary to deliver our objectives, but on a dramatically more ambitious scale than anything that has gone before. We aim to retrofit 14 million households by the early 2020s. Assistance for the fuel poor and targeting the most vulnerable will be at the forefront of this action. The domestic green deal is an opportunity for all householders, whether in the private sector, social rented sector or private rented sector, to improve the energy efficiency of their homes at no up-front cost. It will help protect people against price rises in the future through greater energy saving now.

However, there are drawbacks and we appreciate the particular needs and constraints of the most fuel poor. Green deal installations are paid for through future savings, and we realise that they may not be the full answer for all households. As the hon. Member for Islwyn pointed out, it is no good projecting savings on heating a whole house if the widow living there is only able to heat one room. We recognise fully the need for a substantial element of subsidy for the most vulnerable and fuel poor. That is why we will also introduce a new energy company obligation. Integrating the green deal and the ECO will provide further support for those homes that need it most.

We want to ensure that everyone who wants to can access high quality energy efficiency measures, so that they can cut their emissions and heat their homes more affordably, as well as creating a warmer, more comfortable and liveable home environment. The ECO will assist the poorest and most vulnerable households to an affordable warmth target, providing up-front support for thermal performance measures to help households to heat their homes more affordably. In developing the green deal and the ECO, we are removing the barriers to take-up, raising awareness and showcasing benefits to make energy efficiency a no-brainer for everyone.

We are aware that the long-term solution to the iniquity of fuel poverty is to renovate the UK’s building stock. However, we also need solutions to keep people warm this winter, and the coalition is requiring suppliers to provide a rebate of £120 to some of the poorest pensioners through the new warm home discount. We are also providing winter fuel payments and, if we get the anticipated cold snaps, cold weather payments. We recognise that energy prices are hitting many households hard at a difficult time, and understand consumers’ concerns about rising energy bills. That is why we have obtained a voluntary agreement with the suppliers, who will be writing to 8 million customers to advise on how to save money by changing to a cheaper tariff and will place a cheaper tariff signpost on the front page of most bills. Bills are far too complicated, and they need to be simplified and send much clearer messages to vulnerable and general consumers about how to save money.

[Albert Owen]

I support energy efficiency measures and Ofgem’s recommendations for simplifying bills, but does the Minister agree that it is perverse how many energy companies currently charge low users more money? Low users are often the vulnerable people mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn. Was that issue raised at the Downing street summit so that the companies got a clear message that they should not be punishing those low users?

[Gregory Barker]

The Secretary of State was at the summit, but unfortunately I was overseas. I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman to summarise the key issues discussed, but I can assure him that such issues are at the forefront of our minds when we are making policy.

This is the first year of the warm home discount, and we will assist around 2 million vulnerable households. Many will be low-income pensioner households—exactly the sort of constituent discussed by the hon. Member for Islwyn—who are in receipt only of pension credit guarantee credit. We expect to find more than 600,000 of them and to provide them with a £120 rebate off their bill. Most will receive a rebate without even having to claim, a major benefit to such vulnerable people who might struggle with forms or not realise that they can make a claim. The data-matching process to identify automatically the recipient low-income pensioners for this winter is currently under way, and the call centre is now open to take general enquiries regarding the scheme. Over the four years of the scheme, it will be worth up to £1.1 billion which, at a time of widespread budgetary pressures, is a significant increase in funding on the previous voluntary agreement that also assisted many households under the previous Government.

Fuel bills in the winter months can account for around 60% of the year’s total fuel bill. By working with other Departments, we can ensure that we are reaching the most vulnerable with the assistance that they need. The Department for Work and Pensions provides winter fuel payments of £300 to those over the age of 80 and £200 to those over 60. Those payments provide assurance to older people that they can keep warm during the colder winter months, knowing that they will receive significant help with their fuel bills. In addition, the Government have permanently increased the cold weather payment from £8.50 a week to £25 a week, providing real help to those most vulnerable to the cold. Last winter, we made 17 million cold weather payments, worth an estimated £430 million of direct help to low-income vulnerable households when they need it most—

Energy Bill [Lords]

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Albert Owen]

Absolutely. To be fair to the national grid, as part of our inquiry into the market, we went to see the National Grid Company which, for the first time, is offering choices and options in transmission, such as underground, overground and subsea. I agree that these hikes are ripping people off. They want choices and if they choose underground and it costs more in certain areas, we might have to consider paying more for it, but at the moment we are getting a poor deal when we have the minimum upgrade to the transmission lines and the infrastructure, and are paying the maximum amount through our bills. That balance needs to be addressed.

I realise that time is of the essence, but in closing I want to highlight the point about off-grid so that all households in the UK are treated equally. We need to ensure that we have a level playing field for people in peripheral areas as well as in large towns and cities when it comes to the green deal and paying for electricity and gas. I am sure that there is consensus on this and we need to move forward.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay on raising this important point about simplicity, the changing of the tariffs and how we can get a better deal for all those whom we represent, because at the moment they are being ripped off.

[Gregory Barker]

I shall speak to all the amendments tabled by the Opposition and Back-Bench Members in this group. The first important cluster of amendments covers the green deal. I thank hon. Members for all the amendments and the opportunity, even where we have not agreed, to debate a set of issues that are of particular significance to all our constituents. As we look towards the winter, people will be looking to us for leadership on the important issues of our energy bills and energy efficiency.

I start with amendment 1, tabled by the hon. Members for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), and new clauses 1 and 2, also tabled by the hon. Members and by the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex). The amendments might appear to duplicate existing legislation, but they raise important issues. On our aims for meeting carbon budgets and tackling fuel poverty, legislation already exists to compel this, as the amendments highlight. There is no doubt about the coalition Government’s commitment to both those issues, and we have already met our first and second carbon budgets and published our strategy for the third. We will be publishing our strategy for meeting the fourth carbon budget in the 2020s this autumn.

As I have said, the green deal and the ECO must be seen in the context of our overarching carbon budgets. The amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) emphasise the importance of taking a broad view to maximise cost-effectiveness. Our strategy will set out the role played by the green deal and the ECO in support of the green deal. We have already committed to report to Parliament specifically on this.

The Climate Change Act 2008 already obliges us to justify any shortfall and to take action to address it. Likewise, the Act also enables the Committee on Climate Change to provide advice, which I will come to later. This aim commits the Government to ensure household energy efficiency makes a fair and appropriate contribution to delivering our existing legally binding carbon budgets. We will report each year on what our energy efficiency policies are delivering and to what extent they contribute to the carbon budgets. It will be clear to all who wish to challenge us if our policies are underperforming. That is already in the Climate Change Act or in the Bill.

Only English households are covered because energy efficiency is a devolved matter. It is not for the UK Government to dictate the ambitions of the Government of Scotland and the Welsh Assembly, but we are working in tandem with devolved Administrations, and I have been pleased with the way in which, particularly at official level, but also at a political level, there has been real agreement. We are definitely heading together in the right direction.

Amendments 9 to 12, tabled by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, relate to energy efficiency in a broader sense. I certainly support the principle behind them. He is right to say that successive Governments have ignored at their own expense—or rather, at ours—the compelling argument in favour of energy efficiency improvements before leaping to build new generation capacity, and they have failed to pick up the money available from energy efficiency action on the ground. Energy efficiency within that spectrum of measures must always focus on the most cost-effective savings. Cost-effectiveness is enshrined in policy making within the coalition, and all existing energy efficiency policies come with impact assessments for that purpose. The costs and benefits for UK plc are always in the foreground, not stuffed into the small print. It is for this reason that we propose the green deal as a market mechanism. We will publish an updated impact assessment of the green deal and the ECO, along with a consultation and full details of the secondary regulation, next month.

I assure the hon. Gentleman, who has a substantial record of campaigning and contributing to serious debate on energy efficiency, that it is something my Department now takes far more seriously. We are not just using words to show this, and it goes beyond the green deal. The green deal is clearly a radical, ambitious and key part of our efforts and a flagship policy of which we are extremely proud, but it is certainly not the end of the story. We will establish by the end of the year a new energy efficiency deployment office to deliver energy efficiency; it will sit within the Department alongside the office for renewable energy deployment and the office for nuclear energy deployment, and with equal weight. For too long, and for some extraordinary reason, while successive Governments have exalted the building of new energy generation capacity, energy efficiency, when not ignored altogether, has been dispersed around the Department. It will now have its rightful place in the Department’s hierarchy of actions and priorities.

I am happy to meet hon. Members privately to explain in detail our plans for bringing together the energy efficiency deployment office. It will not only be a first for the UK, but set a precedent around the world. In the international forums I attend, I have found real interest in what we are doing. We are looking at new market models that have not been tried anywhere else. We will certainly look abroad for best practice to build on, but I really think that we will come up with something that has a leading edge.

The energy efficiency deployment office will be tasked with identifying ways of driving further carbon abatement across the economy, which the hon. Gentleman seeks in his amendment, and learning from best practice in other countries. At the heart of its mission, as expressed in the amendment, will be analysing the cost-effectiveness of energy efficiency and energy generation, and it will have the resources to do that. We are recruiting the senior staff with appropriate experience to drive that effort. I hope that that satisfies him and that he is content not to press his amendment to a vote.

The amendments also raise the important matter of the role of non-domestic buildings in the green deal. I assure the House that, as I have said on many occasions, the green deal is an opportunity not only for homes and households, but for businesses and communities. There will be more detail in the consultation document, which we intend to publish next month, about how the green deal will be tailored for non-domestic—invariably business—customers. The UK’s building stock is a key sector of our annual carbon reporting, so the green deal’s contribution to both domestic and non-domestic buildings will be covered. I take the green deal’s contribution to our carbon budgets very seriously, which is why I tabled an amendment in Committee to include in the Bill that reporting commitment, as many stakeholders and other members of the Committee suggested.

National Policy Statements (Energy)

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

I am not going to give way; the hon. Gentleman has not spoken in the debate, and in the time I have left I want to deal with the contributions that have been made.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) criticised the delays in bringing forward the national policy statements. He is absolutely right to say that there have been delays, but they occurred under the Labour Government because the original NPSs, which were signed off by the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband)—hon. Members might recognise his picture in the document here—were riddled with inaccuracies and errors and had to be worked on again. I am glad, however, that we have now produced the NPSs, that broad consensus exists on them, and that we can now plough ahead. That sends an important signal for investment.

[Albert Owen]

Will the Minister give way?

[Gregory Barker]

I want to press on. If I can give way a little later, I will, but there have been a lot of contributions and I want to try to respond to them.

The hon. Members for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard) and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) were among those who raised their significant concerns about the potential for an expansion of incineration. I understand the gut instinct against energy from waste, but we must recognise that it has moved on significantly over the past decade and now involves a wide range of different technologies. The important thing to remember about any form of energy-from-waste technologies is that they sit at the very bottom of the waste hierarchy. Before we reach that point, we must first ensure that there is waste prevention and reduction, as well as reuse and recycling. We must prepare for recycling and recovery and, ultimately, if there is no other use for the waste, we can turn to the responsible creation of energy from waste.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough pointed out, however, we must take account of local opinion. This NPS is only a framework. Were there no framework for energy from waste in it, a free-for-all could be created. The NPS creates a framework in which these decisions can be made; it does not necessarily mean that there will be an automatic presumption in favour of energy from waste.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Thursday 10th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

We think that there is huge potential for growth in the sector, which now needs to be gripped and driven forward. There has been about a decade of talking about the issue, but no real growth. I was delighted to go to the south-west to convene the new marine energy programme board and to announce that the south-west would host the first marine energy park, consisting of a cluster of marine energy firms. I hope that that will be replicated all round the coast of Great Britain.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Much of the new low-carbon capacity plan will require either enhanced or new transmission lines. Will the Department encourage National Grid to consider installing underground and submarine cables as well as enhancing existing pylons?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Thursday 11th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

We are very keen to encourage businesses, communities and, of course, home owners to engage in the decentralised energy revolution, and to that end I am very pleased to tell my hon. Friend that we will shortly publish a new online initiative, giving a whole lot of detail to communities and businesses in order to allow them to access financial incentives and to cut through regulation.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Many peripheral areas such as my constituency cannot benefit from feed-in tariffs because they simply have the wrong transmission lines and infrastructure. Can the Minister assure me that, in the future, when there is a universal roll-out of feed-in tariffs, areas such as mine will not be hit by disproportionate costs because the infrastructure is lacking?

[Gregory Barker]

Absolutely. I am sorry to hear that the hon. Gentleman thinks that his constituency is behind, and I shall be very happy to look into the specific case in his area. If he would like to write to me with specific issues, I shall ensure that my officials look into them, because we are committed to a national roll-out of this exciting technology.

Fuel Poverty (Rural Britain)

Debate between Lord Barker of Battle and Albert Owen

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

I, too, am glad to be serving under your chairmanship for the first time as a Minister in Westminster Hall, Mr Betts. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) on her maiden Westminster Hall speech. She made a fine start in the main Chamber.

It has been a really terrific debate, and I have learnt a lot. It is the first time that I have listened to a fuel poverty debate as a Minister, and it is striking how much cumulative knowledge there is, not just in one party, but on both sides of the House. In the coming months and years of coalition, I hope that we can be inclusive, not only with our coalition partners, but with other parties, because it is clear that concerns about fuel poverty go beyond party boundaries. Although we come from different sides of the political argument, and may have different priorities or apply different principles to problems that lead to different solutions, there is much more common ground on this issue than is often the case. I hope to have an open-door policy and will be open to new ideas from all parties.

We have a radical programme on energy efficiency and we approach it with new vigour and ideas. I appreciate that the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) is new to her job as well and mustard keen to defend the record of the Labour Government, but we all have to wake up and smell the coffee. She asked whether the Government would keep the 2016 target. Keeping targets is not difficult at all, but meeting them is tough. Her Government, whom she defends, were reversing at speed on fuel poverty despite their best efforts. Over 4 million more people—more like 5 million more—are in fuel poverty than in 2004.

Despite good schemes—the hon. Lady rattled off a number of them—the best efforts of Ministers and a great deal of public spending, we are nowhere close to meeting the fuel poverty targets. We have to do some big thinking, ask ourselves some serious questions and redeploy our resources more effectively to deliver for the fuel-poor, particularly for the rural fuel-poor.

My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal addressed clearly what everyone in the Chamber feels: the rural fuel-poor get overlooked and are part of a forgotten population. Many of the schemes introduced under the previous Government have treated people’s homes in urban areas. However, the rural fuel-poor often get a worse deal, particularly those who are off the gas network, because there is a lack of social tariffs for those who are off the grid. That issue has been a reoccurring theme of the debate. My hon. Friend is right to be concerned that metropolitan-centric, top-down schemes that are not embedded in their local communities do not always deliver.

It is difficult to find many of the rural poor. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) spoke well and reminded us that it is often more difficult to find and treat fuel-poor homes that are in, or surrounded by, areas of relative prosperity than those that are concentrated in a metropolitan area. That is a challenge and it is why such homes have been harder to treat in the past. However, it does not mean they are any less deserving of support and concern.

I cannot commit the Chancellor to anything, because doing so is way above my pay grade. However, I heard what the hon. Gentleman said about the potential for a green investment bank—the Green Investment Bank Commission published its report last week—and I have taken on board his suggestions. I encourage him to have a dialogue with Ministers to discuss such a function for the GIB. I would welcome that opportunity.

The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) gave a very good speech. He focused on concerns about competition and ensuring that reforms of competition in the market drive right across and reach target groups that have, so far, not been helped sufficiently.

I was particularly interested in the ideas mentioned in an intervention about supporting and enhancing local group purchasing schemes. When I go back to the Department, I will ask my officials to consider what we can do in relation to that, because the measure does not necessarily involve a lot of spending. I will consider what we can do to try to support and encourage such schemes, because empowering communities is an aspiration that is shared right across the coalition. If one wants to refer to an ideology, it would not be any of those listed by the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury. We believe in localism, the need to empower our communities far more and the fact that the solutions to our nation’s problems are not locked in Departments in Whitehall.

I say to the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) that, of course, we are committed to consultation and best practice, not just with devolved Governments, but with local government and communities. Learning best practice is not a one-way street; there is a great deal more that we can learn from what is successful in communities. Although I am not familiar with the triggers for cold weather payments, I know how important they are. I will look into the problems he mentioned and write to him.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) spoke at length and with great expertise about the extra costs suffered by particularly far-flung areas—not just in his constituency, but in the whole of the British Isles. He focused on partnership-working with devolved Governments, local authorities and communities. I assure him that we are committed to doing that. He also wanted to know what the coalition had to say about off-grid support and protection. The coalition agreement is not a manifesto; it is a relatively tight document. However, he will see that it specifically mentions the need to support and protect off-grid customers. We want to do a lot more.

[Albert Owen]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will not regret offering an open-door policy to Members such as me. He is talking about the coalition and localism, with which I agree. However, there must be more than warm words. Although I agree with the devolution of powers, which I have fought for in referendums for many years, we do not simply need it to happen; we need resources. That is the important thing. Dealing with the issue is not just about passing powers from Whitehall to Cardiff, and to rural areas in Wales; it is about making sure that the resources follow those powers.

[Gregory Barker]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments, but he will also appreciate that we are in a resource-constrained environment for reasons that we do not need to rehearse here. As well as resources, another factor that empowers communities is knowledge. He made a good point about the need for greater transparency about wholesale and retail prices. I agree with him about that, but we also need greater transparency about billing, tariffs and the costs of switching to a different tariff or the best tariff, or paying by direct debit. Those are all important points.

My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) brought her medical expertise to bear when she talked about the excessive number of winter deaths. She reminded us of the shocking figures that were published last year and of the impact that poor housing has on not just health outcomes, but life expectancy. That helped to bring the debate into sharp focus.

The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) was right to point out that a minority of the population will always be off-grid and that price is important. He made a crucial point about up-front payments and minimum deliveries. I will consider his ideas on section 10 of the Energy Act 2010. I cannot promise that we will act on them, but we will look at the matter with fresh eyes, because we are interested in radical steps forward and new thinking. As I said, we cannot go on as we are.

We have a big plan of our own: the green deal. It does not involve grants, loans or mortgages and it certainly does not involve the very modest proposals—pilot schemes—that the previous Government introduced. The green deal is a bold, unprecedented scheme that will not involve personal debt, as the pay-as-you-save model of the previous Government did.