Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Wednesday 8th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in the beginning it was very simple: stay at home and save lives. However, as time has gone on, good behaviour fatigue has set in and that is where we are now. First, as has been pointed out by a number of speakers, the regulations are confusing because they vary between different countries, so my first point is that we need to keep it simple. If the three devolved Administrations and the UK Government cannot get an agreement, frankly, we are in a pretty poor situation.

Secondly, we also need to get some idea of whether or not this is the right policy. I suggest, as I always do, that we should talk to our European colleagues, who seem to have a mass of different ways of dealing with this, to see if there is a common position and even a common science for us to fall back on. If we can do that, we might get some obedience to these new regulations.

Civil Aviation (Insurance) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as president of BALPA, the airline pilots’ union. I endorse what has been said about attendance in the House, not only by Ministers. The Chamber is empty. We need the Whips to get together to find a way to get far more people into the Chamber. At the moment it is very difficult.

I turn to the points made so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and my noble friend Lord Blencathra. I serve on an international pensions committee. It had a disabled member on it for a few years. I became all too aware of the catalogue of errors that my noble friend outlined—the number of times things went wrong and airlines just looked the other way or their compensation was inadequate. Mention has been made of Lufthansa. I like to think that the Minister will introduce a disabled rights in aviation SI or law, or something. As noble Lords all know, I did not support leaving the European Union but, now that the British people have pronounced quite decisively that we are going to leave, for goodness’ sake let us get something useful out of it. This is certainly one thing.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, took part of my speech away, I am afraid. I will mention paragraph 7.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum on the article that confers powers on the Commission to adjust minimum levels. Is it intended that the UK will follow this? How will it monitor what is happening and what the EU intends to do? The EU will obviously have its own internal processes before making changes. How do we propose to be linked into them? What notification arrangements are we expecting to get? I note also that there will be powers for the Secretary of State to amend the minimum insurance requirements by regulation. Are there any plans to do this at the moment?

The next paragraph talks about how an article inserted by the regulations

“includes provision for the European Parliament or the Council to object to continuation of the delegated powers at five-year intervals … these provisions have no practical application in relation to the UK”.

That is because we have a deficient democratic system, frankly. We should also have some system, now that we are leaving the European Union, to look at the continuation of delegated powers and decide whether they should be revoked. I would like the Minister to agree to look into this.

I endorse the points made by my noble friend Lady McIntosh. I have now had three months struggling with BA to get a refund on a ticket. I have very little sympathy for it. It is very good at asking for money, but very bad at giving it back. I would like the Government to add some weight to those customers who are still waiting for refunds after months and a deliberate attempt by airlines, particularly BA, to avoid paying out. I could paper a wall with the number of times that I have been offered a voucher.

Finally, I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, made about the aviation industry having been informed of the department’s intention. Specifically, with what information and in which way were the trade unions informed of the department’s intention and what response did the Government receive from them?

Air Traffic Management (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I shall be brief and I start by declaring my interest as president of the British Airline Pilots Association: from that point of view I am pleased to tell the Minister that we have no great difficulties with this SI as a technical document. We recognise that, without it, the arrangements would no longer be interoperable with the rest of Europe, so it is a necessity.

None the less, I have one or two questions. First, to what extent will this be impacted if, as is widely expected in Brussels, we leave without an agreement? Most of the smart money in Brussels is now moving to a position of expecting us to leave without an agreement and then wanting to start again: will it affect this, impact it, and if so, how? Secondly, what extra costs are going to fall because of this way of doing things? In other words, how much more will it cost?

Thirdly, as has been mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Chidgey, Britain has had a good leadership role in aviation. We have been regarded as the sensible ones; we have not been regarded as the people forever defending our own territory—an accusation which has been laid a country not that very far away from us to the south. We are recognised as providing common-sense leadership. That is going to go and, as with many other things, there will be a gradual divergence as different European countries move their regulation, jointly, away from where we are. Does the Minister see any difficulties arising in this area, and does she believe that we will be able to play any role at all in giving leadership to European initiatives? In other words, as they develop, will we have any consultative role at all?

I repeat the thanks of others to the Minister. She has been an excellent Minister, very good at taking us into her confidence, and I wish her well with these regulations, which, as I said at the beginning, is more or less a housekeeping measure, contingent on what I still regard as the most unfortunate decision to leave the European Union. However, the British people endorsed that position and, in a democracy, we have to listen to the people as, on occasions, they say things we do not like.

Covid-19: Transport

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by declaring an interest in that my son owns a small chain of bicycle shops. I want to talk about Cambridge, where I live, and the problems that this directive will have there. If you work in London you cannot cycle or walk from Cambridge, but nevertheless it is a commuter town. It takes 50 minutes to travel to London by train, two hours by car, and if you do go by car, where on earth can you park? The problem will revolve around trains.

What thought has been given to the fact that if trains can take only 10% to 15% of their current load, and bearing in mind that during the rush hour trains from Cambridge are standing room only, how will the number of people on trains be controlled? Will there be rationing? How can it be done, because there will not be enough trains to take even a quarter of the people to work? Following the example of France and Belgium, I would particularly like to press the Minister to ask for the wearing of masks to be obligatory on public transport. Those countries have done it. Also, can the social distance be reduced from two metres to one metre?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his thoughts on this issue. He has clearly described the challenge that we face in matching demand with the supply of public transport, in this case the trains. Obviously, the Government are encouraging everyone who can work from home to do so, and certainly from the conversations I have had so far regarding London a large number of companies are still encouraging their people to work from home. The second thing we are asking companies in London, and indeed beyond, to do is to spread the load a bit and flatten the peak as much as they can. We are asking companies to put in place staggered start times to ensure that not everyone arrives on the nine o’clock train. Rail services are gradually being increased, but we want to ensure that the safety of their front-line staff remains absolutely critical. The operational plans for services and for the infrastructure around rail travel are being put in place, and the chairman of Network Rail, Sir Peter Hendy, has been tasked by the Secretary of State for Transport to review all those operational plans to make sure that rail services are as good as we can get them, given the capacity constraints.

Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Bill [HL]

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard)
Wednesday 12th February 2020 Lords Chamber

The amendment would sharpen up the definition of the offences and therefore the ability of the police to prosecute people and prevent those offences happening and deter others from engaging in such activity. They are relatively limited but they are important because they give a signal that operating drones is a potentially dangerous, malevolent and damaging form of transport. The fact that the operator and the machine are at a distance does not mean we can do without the restrictions that other controllers of machines in the air, at sea or on land already operate under. I beg to move.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I offer my apologies as I was not able to be here for Second Reading, which I know traditionally one is before one speaks. I draw noble Lords’ attention to my entry in the register, which lists me as the president of BALPA, an office that I am very pleased to fulfil.

I support the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. These are basically safety amendments. We are looking for a positive statement from the Government, which I am sure will be forthcoming. Amendment 33A, as the noble Lord has said, is about the safety features being inoperable. We are particularly concerned if they are disabled deliberately. Of course, sometimes they are inoperable because they just do not work but on other occasions they can be deliberately disabled, and clearly that should not be allowed.

Amendment 33B says a single person can operate only a single drone at any one time. That we see as a matter of basic safety, and we hope it will find favour. On Amendment 33C, as the noble Lord has said, regulations concerning drugs and alcohol are fairly common in industry and in all these situations. I hope the Minister will feel able to give a positive response to the amendments and read into the record the Government’s support for at least the intention of what we are seeking to do.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, I too support the thrust of these three amendments. On the first of them I would need to be quite clear, though, whether the requirements of particular safety features are a legal requirement. If they are not, I believe that they should be; but I assume that they are, which is why they are mentioned in this way. I also note in passing that the phrase

“in charge of a small unmanned aircraft”

is used. We have been talking about various ways in which those aircraft are managed. Is there somebody controlling them or are they being operated? For the sake of clarity, if we are going to use a word such as “controlling”—or any other word—it should be part of the legislation to define what is meant by the phrase or phrases that are used in it.

The amendment regarding one single unmanned aircraft could be restrictive but, to start with, that is perhaps the right way to go—not to immediately talk about allowing two or more, or even a swarm, of small unmanned aircraft to be flown. In passing, if such an arrangement were allowed would the collective weight of the swarm be taken into account, rather than just the weight of an item within that swarm? That could affect it, bearing in mind the weight limitations that are already in legislation.

On the point of the third amendment, alcohol, I know that the Minister talked about alcohol in the letter that she wrote. She said that if it were necessary, it would be a matter for an air navigation order because alcohol and drugs are of such significance in the safety of aviation. The Explanatory Notes refer to anybody fulfilling an aviation function, but surely the operator or controller—the man, woman or child in charge of a small, unmanned aircraft—is performing an aviation function. The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 seems a very appropriate place for alcohol and drugs to be covered, rather than leaving it to an air navigation order.

Thomas Cook

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, I fear that the noble Lord is making the wrong comparison there. On the £250 million, we made the assessment that, even had we been able to provide the guarantee of funds that was requested, the company did not have a viable future. It was severely in debt and losing a significant amount of money. We would have been in the same situation in the future but £250 million poorer. Also, it is not the Government’s usual position to prop up private companies that have got themselves into trouble.

When it comes to the total costs of the failure—there are many, and we understand that—some are clearer than others at this time. On repatriation, for example, I did not just double the Monarch cost—I said that this repatriation is twice the size of Monarch’s, but it is also more complicated. However, we are mitigating that by having conversations with a third party. We learned from the Monarch case that some people do not behave in the way you would expect: in that case, a significant portion of people chose not to be repatriated using the Government. They found other ways of getting home—we do not know how, but they did not arrive for their flights.

Estimating the costs is extremely difficult. It is up to us to keep the costs as low as possible, but ATOL customers who have future bookings can claim from ATOL—that fund is underwritten by the Government. Again, we cannot be absolutely clear about the cost because it will depend on how many people end up claiming, but every person who applies to ATOL to get a refund for their booking will receive it—and that is right.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I draw noble Lords’ attention to my entry in the register. The Times today has two very interesting headlines. The first one says that,

“the company had hung its staff ‘out to dry’”,

but the second one, on the same page, says:

“High flying Thomas Cook chiefs will enjoy a soft landing”.


Yet again, boards of directors appear to be completely above the lifestyle of the workers who are making the money that they benefit from. Of more worry to the day-to-day employees is a quote from the Insolvency Service. It said that those,

“who lost their jobs would not be paid by the failed company for their last three weeks of work”.

These are people who have mortgages to pay, food to put on the table for their children and are due their wages next Monday. Can I ask that the Government look seriously at a way of providing some short-term financial support so that this wages bill can be paid? It is absolutely outrageous that millions and millions of pounds are pocketed by directors at a time when people are not being given even the money to pay their mortgage and buy their children’s food.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend, who makes an extremely important point. I may be mistaken, but I did understand that BALPA wanted the Government to give Thomas Cook the £250 million, which, in my mind, would just be propping up a failing board, which, clearly, he does not have an awful lot of respect for.

It is top of mind to make sure that the employees are treated as well as possible. The Insolvency Service is preparing to pay statutory redundancy to employees. I will look further into exactly what payments will be made and when, and I will include payments that are due to pensions. I will provide as much information as I possibly can and I will put a copy of my letter in the Library to clarify what the Government and the Insolvency Service can do to support employees in the short term. In the longer term, as I have already said, the Jobcentre Plus rapid response service is there, waiting and able to help employees. I have been really heartened by so many companies, such as British Airways and Heathrow Airport, sharing their jobs’ pages on Twitter and saying, “Look, Thomas Cook staff, we respect you. You are good workers. We’ve got jobs, please apply to us”.

Air Services (Competition) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I also have some questions. One of them arises from the comment made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, which suggested that some of this is theoretical or even fanciful rather than real, since replacing “EU” with “UK” sounds like a very simple thing. But it is fundamental to the fact that over the years we have developed a UK aviation industry and an EU aviation industry with open skies and much more flexibility in the choice of airlines operating, which could all be about to come to an abrupt halt.

I have questions in relation to domestic issues as well as international ones if we pass this instrument. For example, on the issue of allocation of slots, clearly at the moment the EU can have some exercise, even on slots operating within the UK and between UK domestic airports. As someone who has flown regularly for over 30 years, using many of the UK’s airports internally and externally, and who has represented an airport, I have been very exercised by slots which come and go, which are offered and then not used and where actual sanctions against the airlines to maintain a service seem to be ineffective.

Let me slightly bore the House with two of my own experiences from the last two weeks. For the first time in the 30-odd years that I have been commuting from Aberdeen to London, I was unable to get a flight that would get me here on time for the sitting of the House, either this week or next week. This was because British Airways decided not to use its full slots, claiming there is not the demand, despite the fact that every flight is overbooked. Indeed, it is telling us two weeks ahead that there are flights which are no longer available, even for wait-listing, because they are overbooked two weeks in advance, yet it has reduced the slots with no sanctions. Does this regulation have any effect on whether or not that could be done? The Minister will tell me it is a matter for the Civil Aviation Authority. It may well be, but I hope the Government will recognise that it is a matter of public interest if people cannot get the flights they would reasonably expect.

On the issue of what will happen to UK airlines seeking to maintain flights to the EU after 29 March, we know that easyJet has already resolved that situation for itself by relocating its headquarters to Vienna. There is a serious possibility that British Airways may have to relocate its headquarters to Barcelona or Madrid, since the EU appears to be saying that it does not recognise the IAG as an EU company because its headquarters are within the UK. I see the Minister shaking her head. I would be interested to know whether she has any updated information as to whether BA can resolve this issue without having to relocate its headquarters out of the UK. It would be somewhat ironic if our flag carrier was headquartered in Madrid or Barcelona.

The other issue relates to when airlines merge. For example, at present we have limited competition between Aberdeen and London, operated by Flybe. Flybe has sold itself for £1 or £1 million—I cannot remember which, but it was a very small amount—although this is being disputed. The question we are left with is what guarantees there would be for those slots if Virgin and its partners took over Flybe. Would it come under UK law? Would there be any EU intervention—or would there have been—and how would it be enforced? So, although the Minister said that the competition regulation has never been applied within the EU, if the UK becomes a third country, could it not then be used by the EU as a discriminatory weapon against us if we are seeking reciprocal rights?

For example, the UK Government may well say that on 29 or 30 March all airlines will be free to continue operating into the UK on exactly the same terms as they do currently. We can do that, but is there any obligation on the EU to reciprocate? If there is not, does this mean that we will be offering free access to all our airports for continental airlines but UK-registered airlines will potentially be denied all access to theirs? Facing this kind of uncertainty is pretty catastrophic 45 days out from Brexit. So of course people are wondering whether they should book flights. I have rashly booked flights to the continent in May and August, mainly because if you do not book them in time they are not available—but they are subject to uncertainties that may or not be resolved.

The Minister needs to answer some basic questions. To what extent will we be in the same situation as we are now? To what extent will the ability to change the rules and regulations unilaterally be open to the UK? If we do it, what will be the implication for our relationship with the EU? Or are we simply saying that we are transferring the law by replacing “the EU” with “the UK” but have absolutely no comment to make on how the EU is going to operate, what sanctions or otherwise it may impose or what redress we may have. I may have read it wrongly, but this reads to me as an entirely unilateral operation by us, with no guarantees that the EU will reciprocate any of it.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, the Chamber is much emptier now than it was for the earlier SI. I am intrigued that we are replacing the air services competition regulations, which apparently have never been used, with an SI which we hope will never come into force. This is almost comedy stuff. The Explanatory Memorandum states that,

“this instrument makes the corrections needed for it to function as domestic UK law after Exit day”.

What is the position regarding the replacement? If negotiations on it are going on at the moment, presumably the Department for Transport is involved in them. I would be interested to hear where they have got to. Are they on the point of producing the replacement or is it some way down the line? If it is on the point of being replaced, do the Government envisage bringing forward another SI to reflect the new regulation? Or will this be the first instance when we are seriously at variance with Europe: in other words, when it adopts a new regulation but we are still working on an old one? This picks up the point I made earlier this afternoon when I asked about divergence between Community and UK law. It needs to be addressed.

One always learns things in these debates. I was fascinated to learn that my noble friend—and good friend—Lady McIntosh began her romantic life by talking about cabotage. I found something else to talk about when I first met my wife, but we do not need to go into that. Looking at the slot allocation regulations, the question that keeps coming to me is: why should any airline stay based in the United Kingdom at all? What advantages are we going to offer them? I can see the advantage in being in a union of 27 countries where there is a common base and common legislation, but what will be the advantage of being a UK airline? I can see none at all. Britain cannot do without airlines. We are not going to stop them flying here, but at the same time we have nothing to offer them that will be better, in any way, than what they will be getting from the EU. The Commission will no longer have a role in relation to airports.

According to the explanatory statement, article 9 says:

“Instead of any invitation to tender to operate a”,


public service obligation,

“route being open to Community air carriers only, this will be open to all air carriers with traffic rights to operate services within the UK”.

Is not the logical corollary that our rights to bid for public service obligation slots in the rest of Europe will be withdrawn? If we are going to open up and say that non-EU airlines can bid for these slots, surely the natural reaction would be to say that we are changing the whole basis of things. So this is not bringing EU law into UK law; it is bringing it in with one quite fundamental change, by opening it up to all air carriers with traffic rights to operate services within the UK. What is the thinking behind this? Why have we inserted this into a regulation that is supposed to bring EU law into line with our law, while making a big divergence by letting non EU-registered airlines bid for these slots? I would welcome the Minister’s observations on why this has been done.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the services SI is about unfair practices. It allows penalties to be imposed on air carriers guilty of unfair practices against the UK industry. Since these powers have apparently never been used at an EU level, it is probably right, just for once, to say that this is purely technical—although the Minister forbore to say so. However, the concept of an EU-wide approach, which is what we are abandoning here by replacing “EU” with “UK”, would be much more likely to be an effective deterrent against such practices than the UK operating on its own. The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, has just wondered out loud why an airline would base itself in the UK in future. This is another example of how we are opening ourselves up to being in a much more vulnerable position through our future isolation.

In her introduction, the Minister said that these EU regulations were being replaced. Will she clarify whether the Government intend, in due course, to replace this SI with an updated version when the EU has updated its regulation—or are we going to be stuck in a time warp with outdated legislation?

Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

That is an even better peroration. The whole campaign of the leavers was to take back control—if I remember—to the British Parliament, not the British Government. It is not the Government or even the Cabinet, but one person who seems to be ramming it through with some kind of stubbornness and determination. That was not what it was supposed to be about. It was supposed to bring the power back to this Parliament.

I say to my noble friend Lord Adonis, if they try to push it through by emergency legislation that will be a real test of the mettle of every Member of this House, particularly the Cross-Benchers. Are they going to stand up for Parliament, or be subservient to our autocratic Government? That will be the test.

I think I have gone a little bit wider than the statutory instrument and I am grateful for the fact that the Lord Speaker does not have the same powers as the Speaker in another place; otherwise, I might have been ruled out of order by now. I am sorry to be slightly flippant; it is a very serious matter. Coming back to relevance, this one statutory instrument is illustrative of the kind of thing we face in this Parliament at the moment, and it is quite frightening.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry that I am going to destroy even more the statement from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, by being the third speaker from this side of the House to raise questions. I saw in the paper this morning that apparently, on 1 September 1939, between 6 pm and midnight Parliament passed six pieces of emergency legislation—all three Readings —and rose before midnight, so it is possible to put through emergency legislation. But I wonder whether this is the sort of parallel we would like to draw.

I have heard many justifications for leaving the EU but I have never yet heard job creation as being one of them. However, it seems that virtually every time we come here we are creating more jobs—59 extra jobs, I am told. That must be at least a couple of million pounds on public expenditure. How much of the vast amount of money we were going to save is going to be spent? I suppose that since the Government’s priority is to create jobs, this is a partly a way of doing that.

[Lord Adonis]

The Minister talked about 59 jobs in the CAA, but about a third of the staff of the Department for Transport are currently working on Brexit-related issues and about a third are clearing up successive messes of the Secretary of State. That leaves very few members of staff actually doing the job of the Department for Transport at the moment.

[Lord Balfe]

The noble Lord makes a true point. One of the things that I find very unsatisfactory at the moment is the huge amount of public service energy going into this. Indeed, we are told that this SI will be unnecessary if there is no deal. We are told by the Government that they want a deal. I feel very sorry for the civil servants spending all their lives working on something that the Government do not want to happen. That is not a very good way of boosting morale.

What happens when the EU updates the regulations? We seem to think that we are looking at a picture that is static for all time. But anyone who knows how the European Commission and Parliament work will know that there is a constant process of review of legislation. Even if this SI is unnecessary, there will come a point, if we leave, where we will have to take over the legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I am sure the noble Lord has noted that the Government have conveniently—from their perspective—translated the euro rate of compensation into pounds using the current exchange rate. The noble Lord makes the good point that that could become distorted if, for example, we have the kind of significant change in exchange rates that the MP David Davies, for example, referred to last week.

[Lord Balfe]

I did not raise that point about the translation, but purely because my noble friend Lady McIntosh had already raised it. I was making the point about the change in regulation, which I am concerned about, not the change in internal things within it.

My second point is on the interpretation of regulation. When the European Court of Justice interprets a regulation, if we are following and providing the same rights, and the CJEU makes a judgment which interprets the regulation so that it is no longer in line, to what extent will we accept the judgment of the court? In other words, how real is this alignment when, not on day one but on, say, week six or month six down the line, things have started to diverge? Presumably we will not have an SI every week; what mechanism do the Government see being used to maintain the alignment between our regulation, which they say will follow the EU statute book—that is fine—and changes in the EU statute book? This question will come up, whether it is on this regulation, if we do not leave, but it will also come up if we leave. How dynamism plays its way through the legislative process will be quite a fundamental point for consumer rights, as it will be for trade union rights, which we will come on to in another debate.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, as this debate has unfolded I have watched the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, looking pensive. I suspect he has probably been thinking, “When I finish this job, I might go into travel consumer law”. When the Minister comes to read Hansard tomorrow, she will probably find that she can check off almost every known troublemaker in this House as having intervened. However, that is what this House is here to do: to make trouble when Ministers bring forward flawed or defective legislation.

Listening to the various queries and questions makes one think very hard about the process that we are going through. The Minister had a baptism of fire over drones a few weeks ago, but that will be as nothing compared to a situation in which this legislation proves defective when it comes to the test and we find that all the sweet and honeyed words about the smoothness of the transfer from EU to domestic legislation throw up faults and weaknesses. There is nothing that makes the British public angrier than being interrupted on their holidays. Woe betide the Minister who is left holding that particular baby if that comes to pass. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, is right: we are stronger within the EU, and the protection given to consumers is far stronger when we work and speak from within the EU rather than when the CAA is acting alone.

Has any impact assessment been made on the effect of Brexit on Heathrow as an international hub? We have already heard of the possible British Airways transfer to Spain, but Heathrow is one of our vital assets as a major hub airport of the world. If leaving the EU and operating under CAA rules leaves us open to competition from Schiphol or Paris or others that can give flight operators greater assurances, that is a real downside of what we are doing. The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, made the valid point that EU law is not static, but is developing. We must face the fact that in this case, as in so many others, we will not be at the table to speak up for British interests and consumers when that development takes place—so much for sovereignty.

Given the complexities that have been revealed by this, is there any plan for a public information campaign to explain to the public what has happened? They need to be informed about their guarantees and where there are dangers because—make no mistake—good as our travel industry is, we will find scams, additional charges, problems with transfers from the EU, tax put on holiday costs and so on. There will be a need for some concerted consumer protection during this process. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

Drones: Consultation

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Balfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consultations they are conducting on the operation of drones in United Kingdom airspace; and whether they will include the British Airline Pilots Association and the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers as members of draft Airspace Modernisation Strategy committees.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and draw attention to my interests as listed in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have a wide range of engagement with industry on the operation of drones in UK airspace, and the government response to the latest formal consultation was published on 7 January. The Department for Transport will continue to work with the British Airline Pilots Association and the Guild of Air Traffic Control Officers, airports, drone manufacturers and other key stakeholders on all issues relating to the operation of drones in UK airspace, including airspace modernisation.

[Lord Balfe]

I thank the Minister for her reply. I refer, in particular, to the airspace modernisation strategy committee and point out that a very good reason for including BALPA and GATCO on it is that they have first-hand practical experience of the complex operations of both flying through airspace and regulating it. They will have a lot to offer when this new strategy is developed.

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for the work he does in his role as president of BALPA and his highlighting of aviation issues both inside and outside the Chamber. It has not been possible to offer every stakeholder a seat on the airspace strategy board, but the DfT and CAA are working with GATCO and BALPA to ensure they have the appropriate representation in the governance structure. Given their expertise and, as my noble friend points out, their practical experience, we really value BALPA and GATCO’s ongoing input and we will continue to work with them to consider what sub-committees they should sit on as part of the new airspace modernisation programme.

Drones: Consultation Response

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord is quite right that in July we brought in a one-kilometre aerodrome restriction, but that was always meant as an initial measure. We did not have any protection beforehand, and that is the case with many countries. It was an interim measure and we said at the time that we would work very closely with the aviation industry, pilots’ unions, including BALPA, and NATS to question whether the restriction zone was large enough. We have come to the conclusion that it is not. Obviously hundreds of thousands of people live within a five-kilometre boundary of airports, so we need to make sure that we have the right exclusion zone. However, we have had conversations about this matter and have now seen evidence that, in order to ensure safety, we need to extend the restriction, and that is exactly what we are doing.

The noble Lord also rightly points out the issues around prisons, and the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office are working very closely on those. Last year they launched Operation Trenton to work together to intercept drones and track down the criminals behind them. To date, there have been 17 convictions related to drone activity and that work will continue, but it is the same challenge. The correct technology does not exist at the moment, although it is being developed very quickly. As a department and as a Government, we have invested in the extension of that technology and there are lots of interesting commercial opportunities too. As the technology develops, it will help airports and prisons, as well as this building and other important infrastructure.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register as president of BALPA, which welcomes the Minister’s Statement. The whole issue of drones is incredibly complex—it is not just a case of a drone in an airport. Drones have a legitimate part—and will have an increasing part—in integrated airspace policy. I believe that we are only just beginning to see the potential of drones, which will be developed. BALPA certainly welcomes the exclusion zone being extended, but we hope that the planned legislation will be brought forward fairly soon. One reason for that is that when legislation comes to this House it is thoroughly examined. People will look at the detail. The consultation is important, but I am sure that the examination in Committee, clause by clause, particularly in this House, which has a good base of knowledge and reputation for looking in detail at these questions, will help the Government and the country to bring this forward.

As I have said to the Minister, and I know that she agrees, this is a matter not of party politics but of civilian safety and of getting a regime which, once it is put in place, will command the support of all sections of this House. So I urge her to bring that forward as soon as she can, and to sponsor urgent research into drone protection technology. That is another area which is very important and with which, as I told the Minister earlier today, BALPA is willing to assist—including financially, if the Government are a bit strapped for cash.

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for that contribution. Obviously, safety is of paramount importance and continues to be our priority. I will take the opportunity to thank BALPA for its work on this; we are pleased to be able to deliver an extension to the restriction zone. My noble friend is quite right that this is not party political; there is a will on all sides to get this legislation through and to get it right. I look forward to taking it through the House. We will publish the draft Bill shortly and will absolutely welcome noble Lords’ scrutiny of it. I have mentioned that we are already investing in research around counter-drone technology. The Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure did significant pieces of work on this last year and will continue to do so this year. It will ensure that the advice it gives on counter-drones is available to airports and will give training courses and guidance documents.

However, I agree that we can do more. The noble Baroness is right to say that we are very thankful that no one was harmed in the Gatwick incident, but it has highlighted the importance of ensuring that we have the proper counter-drone technology in place. We are determined to do that and I thank my noble friend for his offer of a financial contribution. As I said, the Government have already invested in this, but I will take that back to the department.