Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Low of Dalston

Monday 23rd April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, I, too, have grave doubts as to whether a telephone helpline of the kind we are talking about can be regarded as fit for purpose if the purpose is to disentangle the client’s case with empathy and give appropriate advice on it. The matter is made worse if use of the telephone gateway is to be made mandatory. There may be a place for a telephone gateway—it can have a role in filtering cases, as the Minister said—but it is surely entirely inappropriate that it is made the sole route to discriminating and informed advice.

This is not a matter of speculation for we have been here before and we know what we are talking about. I am talking about the experience that we had with the student loans company when it took over the administration of the disabled students’ allowance. This was administered by a service staffed by the kind of people who will, presumably, be staffing the telephone gateway. They proved to have little understanding of or empathy with the kind of problems disabled students have and for which they were seeking the support provided by the disabled students’ allowance. In fact they were inclined to make light of them and even suggest that the students were somehow swinging the lead or making unmeritorious excuses for financial support from the state.

Those applying for disabled students’ allowance have much in common with the kind of vulnerable people we are talking about needing help with welfare benefits cases. I would not wish to place my confidence in a service of this kind as the mandatory gateway to legal advice and I do not think the House should either.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, it is rather disappointing to have to speak on this subject again. One hoped that the other place might take note of our amendment and carry it through. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has in her usual clear and well expressed way explained that our concern is not with telephone services per se. That is not the point at all. All of us here know the value of telephone services. I saw it at first hand as a Minister and I am delighted that the noble Baroness quoted me in her opening remarks. I hope that that excellent work continues and expands—of course I do.

However, the point is that in a limited range of cases, whether classified by the type of person, such as those with communication problems, or by the type of case, such as very complex cases or cases that require searching through reams of papers to identify the nature of the real issue—a point that was made very powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury—it is counterproductive to expect someone to go through a telephone gateway. In those cases there should be a provision for face-to-face advice from the outset. That is hardly an unreasonable request. Indeed, it is common sense.

I am not the first and I will not be the last to remind the House that today is St George’s day. Perhaps in rather a laboured way, I make the point that there is an English tradition of pragmatism, flexibility, seeing what actually works in the real world rather than what I fear is behind the Government’s stance: too much inflexibility, a kind of didacticism and, as I have described before using a French expression, a rather dirigiste approach towards this issue. It is an issue that cries out for flexibility and trying various ways to make sure that people who need this help can get it. The noble Baroness made her case very powerfully indeed and other speakers have supported her. I very much hope that we can ask the other House to think again on this.

I end by reminding the House of powerful words spoken by the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrat party in the other place just last Tuesday. He had listened carefully and he said this:

“I was grateful for the Minister’s reassurance, but I have to say that I am not persuaded. Like any MP with a constituency containing people from many different races and backgrounds, with many different first languages, and with all the disabilities that any mixed community has, I simply do not believe that a telephone route into deciding eligibility for legal aid is right for everybody. It may be right for many people, and I understand that it will be a good service, but if we ask constituents such as mine whether they have always been satisfied with the council response line—whether under Labour now, or with us running it, as previously—the answer is always no. That does not change, irrespective of who is running the show. I understand the Government’s position and I hear what they say about a review, although I add a request for the review to be regional as well as general, but I believe that the Lords who pressed for amendment 24 have a well-made case. I shall support the Lords in respect of amendment 24”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; cols. 206-07.]

I do not always, or even often, agree with the right honourable Gentleman who I have just quoted at some length, but on this I do agree and I very much hope that the House will too.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Low of Dalston

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 31ZA and shall speak briefly to Amendment 31ZB, which is also in this group.

Amendment 31ZA adds to the matters on which the chief counting officer may give directions to regional counting officers or counting officers, direction about the discharge of their functions in relation to voters with disabilities. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, gave very welcome reassurances, setting out the Government’s clear expectations around the accessibility of the referendum for disabled people. It was most welcome that the noble Lord stated on 31 January:

“The chief counting officer will issue guidance and directions to RCOs and COs that will cover their duties in relation to accessibility and disabled voters under relevant equality and electoral legislation. These include: ensuring that polling stations meet the accessibility requirements of the DDA; ensuring that information, forms and notices relating to the voting process are available in alternative, accessible formats; making available enlarged sample versions of the ballot paper in polling stations; and providing a tactile voting device in each polling station to enable voters with visual impairments to vote”.—[Official Report, 31/1/11; col. 1292.]

I know that disabled people’s organisations outside this House have very much welcomed those reassurances, but it would help to underline the priority that should be given to meeting the needs of disabled voters to have the power to give directions on these matters on the face of the Bill.

Amendment 31ZB gives the chief counting officer power to give directions regarding the handling of complaints from persons dissatisfied with the way in which regional counting officers and counting officers have discharged their functions. This would apply not only to disabled voters but to voters generally and would in effect establish a complaints procedure that could be used by voters dissatisfied with the conduct of any aspect of the referendum. I raise this matter because it is surely right that there should be an avenue other than the costly and legalistic process of judicial review for members of the public to register complaints about the conduct of the referendum—whether that be over a failure to make reasonable adjustments to inaccessible polling stations or to provide the tactile voting template to a sight-impaired person, or because they feel that the arrangements for access made by regional counting officers and counting officers have fallen short of the standards that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, set out in Committee.

The nature of the complaints procedure would be up to the chief counting officer to decide, no doubt in consultation with local authorities and other stakeholders. Following the serious access problems experienced at the last election, it is essential that we provide a lighter-touch, non-legalistic way of addressing complaints which enables the chief counting officer to investigate and leads to the complainant receiving a report of his findings, perhaps an apology, and a statement about the steps which will be taken to ensure that the problems do not recur. None of this is a million miles away from the powers given to the Electoral Commission by Section 67 of the Electoral Administration Act 2006 to determine and publish performance standards for electoral officers, to direct them to provide the commission with reports on their performance against those standards and to publish an assessment of that level of performance.

Noble Lords may say that my amendment will have no impact on future elections. I accept that. This amendment is designed purely to ensure that we can deal with complaints that arise during the referendum. That is all we can do in this Bill. However, if the Government could see their way to accepting the amendment, I think it would provide a good platform on which to build for the future. I hope very much that we might see provisions along the lines I am seeking by having this amendment enshrined in future electoral legislation as soon as there is a legislative opportunity. I beg to move.

[Lord Bach]

We on this side support very much the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Low. We hope that the Government will react favourably to them; he is quite right to say that the noble Lord the Leader of the House reacted sympathetically in Committee to the debate that the noble Lord introduced. We hope that the Government might be able to go a little further this evening and agree with the amendments as far as they are able to do so. We look forward to what the Minister has to say.