Justice: Civil Litigation Reform
Lord Bach Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Bach
I begin by thanking the Minister for repeating the Statement made by his right honourable friend and for giving us advance sight of it. We have a number of questions, mainly around the first part of the Statement. We look forward to the second part on the commencement of the consultation period, and broadly welcome the fact that there is to be a consultation period on those issues.
As regards the first part, we of course accept that costs in civil proceedings are very much worth investigating; indeed, we did so when in government. I am sure we all agree that those suffering injury through the negligence of public and private bodies and who cannot afford to fund actions privately must have recourse to the civil justice system. Our fear is that these plans go so far in trying to keep down costs that some claimants with good cases will find it difficult, if not impossible, to find a lawyer who will take on their case. Of course, the devil will be in the detail of today’s announcement, and I ask when it is intended that legislation will be introduced. Will it be part of a Bill that is rumoured to be coming from the Ministry of Justice within the next few months?
To justify his announcement, the Justice Secretary refers in his Statement to Lord Justice Jackson’s monumental report. However, have Her Majesty’s Government taken into account Lord Justice Jackson’s view that his proposals should be seen as a package and should not be subject to cherry-picking, although is that not exactly what the Government have done in this announcement? Will he also take into account Lord Justice Jackson’s strong desire to keep civil legal aid for clinical negligence and housing cases, which are currently very much under threat from the Government’s proposals? I quote from page 70 of his final report:
“I do, however, stress the vital necessity of making no further cutbacks in legal aid availability or eligibility”.
Is it fair to allow claimant solicitors to recover up to 25 per cent of their costs from the damages that a claimant recovers when the increase from defendants to claimants in compensation will be only 10 per cent and will apply only to general damages, which as the House will know, are sometimes only a fraction of the total damages? Why should someone who has suffered the trauma of an injury at work be told that some of the money they have justly received to compensate them is to go to their lawyer? Do we really want to go down the route of contingency fees? I know that they existed under our law for a short time but they no longer do. I think that at some stage the House will want to debate the whole issue of contingency fees and whether they are an appropriate course for the English and Welsh legal system.
Has the Justice Secretary had a chance to assess the road traffic accident portal scheme introduced by the previous Government to reduce costs? This uses fixed fees and efficient processing to limit costs, and it came into force in March 2010. Does the Minister accept that it has reduced by half the cost of 75 per cent of personal injury cases? Expanding the scheme to cover personal injury claims would, we believe, save costs. Do the Government agree?
The Government have said that an aim of the reforms is to reduce the costs that defendants have to pay. Of course, many defendants are insurance companies. In the light of the reforms, can the Minister say what reductions the Government expect in insurance premiums? Can he confirm whether there is an impact assessment of how the changes will affect access to justice, costs to defendants and reductions in insurance premiums?
Next, is the Minister concerned that, although there will be limitations on claimants’ ability to bring a case and on the costs incurred by their solicitors, there will be no such controls on a defendant in defending a case? Does that not raise the question of possible inequality between the two sides in a case?
In this House we all agree that a fundamental principle of our justice system should be proper access to justice. As a Government, we agreed with senior judges such as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge—the Lord Chief Justice—as well as Lord Justice Jackson and others, that the costs of civil litigation were sometimes excessive. We would all like reduced litigation costs and, very importantly, alternatives to litigation and particularly to the courts to be found wherever possible.
Our fear is that the proposals could restrict access to civil justice, particularly for those who do not have their own means of funding—rather like the Government’s proposals on cutting legal aid in social welfare law. It could reduce access to justice rather than the opposite, which is our desire—to improve it. It will be on that key issue of access to justice that we will hold the Government’s actions to account.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, both for his welcome for the discussion on the county court proposals and for the general level of his questioning. I think that if we are to touch a system like this, there is bound to be some concern about whether there will be a reduction in access to justice. We are looking at that carefully in our impact assessment and in other approaches. On the question of legislation, we intend to legislate as soon as possible and as soon as there is a suitable vehicle.
I do not think that we have cherry-picked Lord Justice Jackson’s report. We have retained a certain hold-back on protecting clinical negligence claimants in the help that they will get. Lord Justice Jackson made 109 recommendations, and the Government are taking the reform of conditional fee agreements as a matter of priority because of the potential cost saving for the Government and others. He conducted a year-long review of current arrangements and considered the likely impact of these proposals. Much of the necessary data are held in private hands by lawyers and defendants in civil litigation. Data were provided during Sir Rupert’s review and further data were received by the Government during the consultation. The Government’s initial impact assessments were published alongside the consultation and comments were specifically sought on the assumption. A final impact assessment was published alongside the Government’s response. Our impact assessment shows that successful claimants in personal injury cases will generally end up in a similar position to now, although overall most will gain.
As the noble Lord said, the road traffic scheme, to which the noble Lord, Lord Young of Graffham, also referred in his report, seems to have been a considerable success, and we are examining ways of how it could be extended. On the impact on insurance it is difficult to be precise, but it is interesting that today the Association of British Insurers has issued a statement saying that it expects insurance costs to fall as a result of these reforms.
Why should claimants pay? Claimants with meritorious claims will still be able to bring them. The Government believe that it is important that people with serious injuries should be able to receive compensation for negligence. That will continue. Indeed, the general damages for non-pecuniary loss, such as pain, suffering and loss of amenity, will be increased by 10 per cent under these proposals and there will be an incentive to reduce costs compared with now, such as improving incentives to settle. This will improve justice overall.
As the noble Lord will know, one of the main criticisms of the post-2000 operation of this scheme was that claimants had no real incentive to put a check on their legal costs on the assumption that they would never be responsible for it. The Government also believe that damage-based agreements will provide an additional method of funding for claimants. Like conditional fees, they are a type of no-win no-fee agreement under which lawyers are not paid if they lose a case but may take a percentage of the damages awarded to their client if their case is successful.
I hope that I have covered most of the points that the noble Lord covered. If I have not, I will give him opportunity to intervene again. In aid of these proposals, I call upon two statements. One was made by Mr Jack Straw, who originally commissioned the Jackson report.
Lord McNally
Did he not? Sorry. You were there; I was not. Thank you very much. Mr Straw said that the Jackson proposals,
“are designed to reduce the costs of civil litigation overall. Those costs have risen too high, and that is a bar to proper access to justice”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/2/10; col. 740.]
Perhaps he was pointing to what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, just said. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger—the Master of the Rolls—commented:
“Critics do not appear to have been able to provide an alternative model for a comprehensive package to tackle what seems universally acknowledged to be a non-sustainable problem of rising civil litigation costs. The time for analysing the problem has come to an end. The time for action has come”.
The Lord Chancellor has brought these proposals forward in that spirit.
Young People: Custody
Lord Bach Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord McNally
My Lords, on the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, the whole thrust of departmental policy is to try to ensure that in all parts of the secure estate there is consistency of training and application in these matters. We are continuing to take advice on this. On the matter of legal advice, the Youth Justice Board commissioned Voice and Barnardo’s to provide an advocacy service in every part of the secure estate. Secure children’s homes also have advocacy services under contracts held by the relevant local authorities.
Lord Bach
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Youth Justice Board is a crucial player in this whole difficult area of young people and custody? The Government intend to abolish the YJB and take its functions into the Ministry. The Minister uses the strange but certainly novel argument that it should be abolished not because it has been a failure but because it has been too successful. Is it not time to stop this nonsense and accept that Her Majesty's Government have got this wrong and that the independent Youth Justice Board should be allowed to get on with its vital job?
Lord McNally
That is a little wide of the mark, but I am very happy to say that we will return to this matter on Monday next, when I am sure that that question will be in the noble Lord’s opening speech. He can look forward to my response on what the Government’s policy will be.
Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2011
Lord Bach Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and I congratulate the Minister for the succinct way in which he put these orders. It is not always easy to put orders before the Committee so succinctly, but he has managed it with great élan this afternoon. It is very good to have the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, with his experience of the family courts, joining in the debate even on fairly uncontested orders. His experience will be very valuable to the House. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Jones for his staunch defence of the magistracy and the detailed questions that he asked about the orders. Let me say straight away that we do not oppose the orders at all; indeed, they seem to demand support and to make sense. As I understand it, they had general support from the other place and from the outside world.
The whole area of family law policy is being examined by the Norgrove committee as we speak, of course. We began that in government and the present Government have wisely carried it on. It is an important committee; we look forward very much to its report and the Government’s decisions on that report. Some of us feel that our family law needs to be brought up to present times and that many changes could usefully be made, but that is not the issue for today. These orders deal with procedure and rules and are a vital and much respected part of our legal system, which is widely—and rightly—admired elsewhere. Our procedures and rules must be known, exact and kept up to date; these orders certainly do that.
There is an interesting argument around family proceedings courts in the magistrates’ courts. I understand that the orders give the equivalent power to those courts as they do to the county court and the High Court. That is no doubt a good thing, but will the more serious cases still go to either the county court or, if they are even more serious, the High Court? I am sure that it is still the position; it ought to be, and I would not want any change to it.
My query is about Article 38 in the Family Procedure (Modification of Enactments) Order. This is not a trick question, and the noble Lord is welcome to answer at his leisure if he wants. The Explanatory Note states that:
“The amendment removes the reference to the exercise of the power to transfer where there is a real risk that a party to proceedings may lack mental capacity within the meaning of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 as the FPR now make provision (in Part 15) for protected parties in relation to all three levels of court including the magistrates’ courts”.
Do I take it that, where that issue has arisen until now, the family proceedings court has not been seen fit to be an appropriate venue or forum for those cases? Obviously, the cases are made more difficult if someone lacks mental capacity within the meaning of the Act. Is it really appropriate that those cases be heard in the family proceedings court?
Apart from that, we support the orders and are grateful to the Minister.
Lord McNally
My Lords, the House is extremely generous in its comments about my command of the subject. I am not a lawyer, so I feel like a lion in a den of Daniels when I look round and see the contributors. I am grateful for the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, about the Norgrove review. We hope that Mr Norgrove will give an interim report in March and his final report in the autumn. I agree with the noble Lord that it will be a useful opportunity to review family law.
I also agree that we will be well aided in that review by the presence of my noble friend Lord Marks, who has already made his impact both in the Chamber and here in the Moses Room. His contribution today might be better read by the practitioners than by the House, in that he said that due notice for documents required would speed up and simplify processes. In looking at our criminal justice system over the last 10 months in my limited experience, I have frequently been amazed at how easy it is to disrupt the smooth running of the system. I hope that we can make the system work more efficiently. I am sure that his fellow practitioners will duly note his opinion about the value of the experienced district judges compared with others.
The noble Lord, Lord Jones, asked whether the destination of appeals order will apply to appeals from district judge magistrates’ courts, and whether magistrates’ courts have been consulted. The draft order relates to family proceedings in the High Court and county court only and does not apply to magistrates’ courts. On the wider issue that he raised, both the Magistrates’ Association and the magistrates’ clerks body responded to the consultation and were fully consulted. The draft destination of appeals order applies to all family proceedings, including adoption proceeding, and revokes the 2005 destination of appeals order. If that does not cover the points raised, I will gladly find out more.
The noble Lord, Lord Jones, widened his remarks a little more to ask about the magistracy. That gives me an opportunity to say that we have carried out a rationalisation of the number of magistrates’ courts. I believe that we have retained the essential strength of magistrates’ courts and of the magistracy, which is their localism. This is the 650th anniversary of the magistracy, which we will be celebrating later this year in Westminster Hall. On the attitude of the Ministry of Justice, my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor is certainly looking very actively at how magistrates can be given more work—not less—and take on more responsibilities. We will be looking at that in various pieces of legislation later in the year.
Regarding the query on Article 38, prior to the coming into force of the Family Procedure Rules 2010, magistrates’ courts did not have the power to appoint such representatives. Only the High Court and county courts had such powers. However, under the 2010 Rules, magistrates’ courts will be able to do so. Therefore, the fact that a person lacks capacity will not require a transfer of proceedings so that a representative can be appointed. It follows that it is appropriate to omit sub-paragraph (h) from Article 15(1) of the Allocation and Transfer of Proceedings Order 2008. The Family Procedure Rule Committee considers that it is appropriate that magistrates’ courts should have these powers to avoid unnecessary transfers. However, complex cases can still be transferred in accordance with the allocation order. I have taken note of the concern that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, raised, which I hope is covered by that assurance about complex cases.
I hope that my response has covered the points that were raised during the debate—if it does not, perhaps colleagues would remind me. Like others who have spoken, I think that the order provides for a welcome consolidation of the courts and a welcome increase in responsibility for the magistrates’ courts, and I hope that, as in the other place, we can adopt these measures.
Data Protection (Subject Access Modification) (Social Work) (Amendment) Order 2011
Lord Bach Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, never underestimate the value of the Whip because, but for the intervention of my noble friend Lady Northover, I would have been well into this speech and would not have moved the Motion on the previous order. I am most grateful to her.
Lord McNally
The draft order before us today amends an order made in 2000 with regard to the data protection rights of individuals in the context of social work. Specifically, the order brings the data protection obligations of the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service in Wales—CAFCASS Cymru—into line with those of its counterparts in England.
The purpose of the draft order is to ensure that officers of CAFCASS Cymru are exempted from the requirement to disclose personal data to an individual—known as a “data subject” in the Data Protection Act 1998—when they consider that to do so would be likely to prejudice the conduct of social work by causing serious mental or physical harm to the individual or a third party. As a result of an order made in 2005, CAFCASS Cymru’s counterparts in England can already use this partial exemption when replying to requests for personal data made under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998. In 2000, when the DPA came into force, the Government brought forward such an exemption by order, which could be relied upon where the disclosure of the information would prejudice the carrying out of social work by causing harm to an individual or a third party.
I should explain that, even without this exemption, in certain situations data controllers may be able to rely on the principle that information shared with a social worker was given in confidence. Therefore, it might not be fair, or even lawful, to release the information, as to do so would be in contravention of the first data protection principle in the DPA. However, the social work exemption in the 2000 order gave a strong, certain and very explicit legal basis to withhold information and ensure that social work is not prejudiced. The schedule to the 2000 order listed those organisations and functions to which the exemption could be applied. This important exemption—the subject of our debate today—ensures that individuals’ rights to see their personal data do not inadvertently prevent social work from being carried out effectively.
With that background in mind, I will turn to the reason for the order before us today. In 2005 an order was approved by Parliament which added certain functions of CAFCASS in addition to those in the 2000 order. The 2005 order allowed CAFCASS to apply the social work exemption in appropriate cases. As Members will know, CAFCASS works with children and their families who are involved in family proceedings, and advises the courts on what it considers to be in the child’s best interests. Matters in which CAFCASS may become involved include where parents are separating or divorcing and cannot agree on arrangements for their child. The role that CAFCASS officers perform means that they routinely process information related to social work.
On 1 April 2005, the functions of CAFCASS in Wales were devolved to the Welsh Assembly, making CAFCASS in Wales—CAFCASS Cymru—a separate organisation to that of CAFCASS in England. Unfortunately, this was not taken into account at the time of the 2005 order, and therefore CAFCASS Cymru has not been able to apply this exemption, although its counterpart in England has. As a result, the intention behind the 2005 order that this exemption should apply across England and Wales, as agreed by Parliament, has not been fulfilled. It is important that this inconsistency in the subject access regime between England and Wales is rectified and that CAFCASS Cymru is able to use this exemption as was originally intended.
CAFCASS Cymru has told us that, between 2007 and 2009, there were 23 cases where it would have considered using this exemption, had it been available. In these cases, CAFCASS Cymru relied on the principle, mentioned at the start of my remarks, that there would have been a reasonable expectation that information that children share with a family court adviser would remain confidential and therefore would not disclose the information because it could give rise to an actionable breach of confidence. However, this approach has not been tested, either by the courts or by the Information Commissioner. The extension of this exemption to cover CAFCASS Cymru will provide it with parity and will ensure a stronger, more certain and explicit legal basis to withhold information if CAFCASS Cymru considered that this would be likely to prejudice the carrying out of social work, by causing serious harm to the physical or mental health of a child.
I want to emphasise here that the Government take the issue of individuals’ rights to access their personal data very seriously. Just as we have made clear our commitment to transparency in terms of public data and official information, we are also committed to upholding people’s rights to see what information is being processed about them in both public and private sectors. Indeed, the Ministry of Justice’s recent call for evidence sought views on how the current subject access regime is working. Responses to this confirmed that individuals see this as an important right and that data controllers by and large take their responsibilities in this area seriously. But there can be no doubt that in certain, specific circumstances, such as those we are considering today, releasing information may not be in the interest of an individual, or indeed of others, including the children of the individual concerned, or those involved in protecting them.
I should make clear to noble Lords that a right of appeal remains for those individuals who believe that a subject access request has not been complied with fully. As with any subject access request, there is a right of appeal through the courts under Section 7(9) of the Data Protection Act. Alternatively, individuals may approach the Information Commissioner, who may investigate whether the data controller has complied with the obligations under the Act. In addition, this order, should it be agreed, will add employees and contractors of CAFCASS Cymru, acting in their professional capacity, to the list of “relevant persons” in the 2000 social work order, as is the case with CAFCASS in England.
Section 7 of the Data Protection Act acknowledges that there may be times when the personal data of another person may be released as the result of a subject access request. In most circumstances, the data controller will need to seek the consent of that other person or assess the reasonableness of disclosure before giving out the data. However, the personal data of a “relevant person”, as defined by the 2000 order, is not subject to these conditions of consent or reasonableness. This means that CAFCASS Cymru must disclose personal data given by its employees in the course of their professional duties if this is required to provide the data subject with personal data under the terms of a subject access request. Consent and the reasonableness test are not factors in the disclosure.
A concern was raised in another place about how relevant persons will be protected from harm by having to release their personal data to others. It is important to remember that this draft order would allow CAFCASS Cymru to withhold information if social work was to be prejudiced by causing harm to the individual or any third party. This could include those who work for CAFCASS Cymru. CAFCASS in England, which must already adhere to this when replying to subject access requests, has told us that it is not aware of any harm caused to employees. In all cases so far it is only the name of the employee that has been released and it is highly unlikely that the individual making the request will not already know the name of that person—most likely to be a social worker—who has been dealing with their case. As such, it would probably raise more suspicion if the name of the employee in question was redacted and therefore the name is almost always released. Officials in CAFCASS Cymru have said that their approach would be similar to that of CAFCASS in England. Again, this provision would bring CAFCASS Cymru into line with CAFCASS in England to ensure consistency in the two bodies' approach to releasing personal data.
The principles about the need to maintain a strong subject access regime while protecting individuals were agreed by all parties in 2005 and these principles still hold firm. In any case, there is no reason why they should apply in England but not in Wales. Including CAFCASS Cymru in the list of organisations able to apply the exemption will not only protect individuals and ensure that social work can be carried out effectively; it will also ensure coherence and consistency between the organisations in England and Wales, and correct the error made in 2005. I therefore commend this draft order to the Committee.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the Minister again for explaining these orders—perhaps not quite as succinctly as in the previous case, but I understand why—and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for raising the point that he has raised.
Of course, whenever exemptions are made to data protection regarding people’s fundamental right to know what data are held about them, how those data are used and what safeguarding processes there are, it is right that they should be very carefully examined. This order has been examined very carefully in another place and I have read the transcript of those proceedings. On that occasion, the matter was tested by a number of questions, particularly about the frequency of exemption already in place for England. However, Members of the other place were content and satisfied with the answers that were given; in my view, we should also be content with the order and with the way in which the Minister has outlined the order today.
There are occasions when it is not just right but important that exemptions are made to the normal rights under data protection legislation. That is common sense and is appropriate. What makes the exemption satisfactory is that, first, there is a right of appeal, which is very important in our view. Secondly, it is absolutely right that social workers, who are not very well paid but who do a pretty demanding job that is absolutely crucial and much underrated by the rest of society, should get the protection that they deserve, and anything that can make their difficult task easier should be done by Parliament, if possible. I believe that that is what these exemptions have done so far in England and will now do in Wales. Our view is that this order is sensible, reasonable and absolutely appropriate.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am sorry that my explanation of this instrument was succinct. I turned over in my mind whether to adopt the attitude exemplified by my noble friend Lord Sassoon and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, in the earlier debate by reducing the issue to some party barn-storming by announcing that this was the coalition cleaning up a mess left by the previous Government, but I have been around this place long enough to know that we will probably make similar mistakes in legislation.
Lord McNally
This just shows how these matters are dealt with in the justice system. I also note that, as one QC eased himself out of the Benches, another QC eased himself in. I deal with these matters with great trepidation.
On our call for evidence, the preliminary result was published in January of this year and I shall ensure that my noble friend receives a copy. We are undertaking an interesting exercise in trying to future-proof as much as we can the whole of data protection. The call for evidence will be extremely useful in making what we hope will be a positive contribution to the review of the European directive. The capacity of data protection of the exchange of data has changed dramatically, even in this still young century. Therefore, the need to take a new look at data protection is extremely timely. We shall be making a contribution to the review going on in Europe and we shall also review exemptions and applications under the Data Protection Act as part of that process.
Perhaps I might associate myself with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. One was that it is important that there should be a right to access data. Successive Governments have now been committed to greater transparency, but there have to be safeguards along with that. I also therefore associate myself very much with his tribute to social workers—a group sometimes quite outrageously pilloried in our popular press—who carry out extremely difficult responsibilities on behalf of our whole society. If they are to carry out such responsibilities, the kind of protection that this order provides for them is no more than they deserve. Certainly, in this case it should apply both in England and Wales.
Public Bodies Bill [HL]
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Lord Bach
I have played a very limited part in this Bill so far, so I hope that the Committee will forgive me if I do not get the spirit of it straightaway. I have been involved in other matters that have taken up quite a large amount of the House’s time.
I make it clear at the start that this is a probing amendment. However, that does not imply that we on this side are satisfied with the way in which Her Majesty’s Government are supporting victims of crime. It has often been said in this House, in particular, that for years victims were the forgotten people of the British criminal justice system. Sometimes they were not listened to; sometimes they were not consulted; and quite often they were not given the information that they were entitled to know. To sum that up, they were not treated as seriously as they should have been. However, I believe that there has been something of a revolution during the past 15 years or so, largely down to some fantastic victims’ organisations that have grown in strength over that period, becoming effective and powerful players, but also because of the work and extra resources that the previous Government—the Labour Government—put in to this part of the criminal justice system. In the past, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has been graceful enough to acknowledge that resources and effort were put in by the previous Administration.
As I understand it, victims’ panels, with which the amendment is concerned, have worked well and, importantly, they have been able to give victims direct access to government in its widest sense but to Ministers, too, and of course vice versa. However, we are told that the Victims’ Advisory Panel is to go. Some suggest that it may have gone already and I would like the Minister to comment on that.
Lord Bach
I thank all those who have spoken in this debate. The Minister has clearly persuaded at least one member of the governing coalition of the wisdom of his words, and I congratulate him on that. I thank him warmly for his full answer to this amendment and for dealing with the other questions that I asked. I look forward to his letter. I thank my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis, too, for asking a very pertinent question. Like all good cross-examiners, he knew the answer to his question before he asked it.
Victims are a serious and substantial issue and I make no apology for talking about them in more general terms when I introduced my short amendment. I cannot say that I am totally satisfied with the Minister’s answer because I do not believe that the Victims’ Commissioner, a post that we set up and that the present Government very much support, was necessarily meant to be at the expense of the advisory panel, which is due to be abolished. There seems to be no reason why the two should not work hand in hand. Maybe there would not be as many advisory panels as there were before the commissioner was appointed, but the direct contact that there was between Ministers and victims of crime under the advisory panel system should be encouraged; it was of considerable use and advantage to Ministers.
My noble and learned friend Lady Scotland, who is in her place today, reminds me that she used to chair one of the panels. She says that she got a great deal of information and knowledge from it that might not be so available to Ministers in the future. This is meant as no criticism of the Victims’ Commissioner, who is an outstanding public servant, as the Committee knows well. I just ask the Government to think again about whether they should get rid of the concept of this advisory panel altogether. They should ask themselves whether the panel did not add something to the very difficult relationship between victims of crime and government.
Lord McNally
On the point about the thinking behind this, I note that a year before the Victims’ Commissioner took up her post the then Minister wrote to all the members of the advisory panel, whose terms were all coming to an end, asking them to stay on for an extra year until the commissioner was appointed. The panel members agreed to work on until May 2010, which suggests that even the previous Administration might have thought that the arrival of the Victims’ Commissioner would call into question the future of the panel. That relates to the question that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked me earlier about whether the panel had already been abolished. There was this hiatus because the previous Administration had not appointed a new panel. I suspect that it was thought somewhere that there would be an overlap between the Victims’ Commissioner and the work of the advisory panel.
Lord Bach
The Committee will be grateful to the Minister for mentioning that point, but it does not take away from the fact that the previous Government were not committed to scrapping the Victims’ Advisory Panel. At the time, it would have been quite understandable for a Minister, knowing that an election was due and that whoever became the Victims’ Commissioner would want to look at the position once he or she had taken their place, just to write that letter. Is it really the main, or an important, motivating force of the Government that it is worth saving £50,000 or whatever per year and that the good work done by the Victims’ Advisory Panel should be put on one side? There is a case for saying that the Victims’ Advisory Panel should continue in some form—perhaps a modified form. However, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. We will consider carefully whether we will bring this back again on Report. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Bribery Act 2010
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Lord McNally
My Lords, I agree entirely with the noble Lord’s last point: the legislation was subject to very careful scrutiny. Since coming to office, we have also subjected the Act to a wide range of consultations aimed at making sure that the Act, which passed both Houses with all-party support, was fully understood and could be implemented fully. I take the noble Lord’s point, as I think that the Government do, that any suggestion that British industry can only make advances in overseas trade by bribery does unjust damage to our reputation as a fair-trading nation.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I had the privilege of taking the Bill through this House. The Minister is quite right: it was received with widespread and vocal support from all sides of the House. That does not always happen with Ministry of Justice Bills. One criticism, however, was that legislation should have been put in place sooner, not as late as it was. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has reminded us, one year after the Bill became an Act of Parliament, we still do not know when it will be implemented. Does the Minister agree that this is totally unsatisfactory and that he needs to go back to his department and insist that the Bill be implemented as soon as possible?
Lord McNally
I hear what the noble Lord says. During the period we are talking about we have not been idle. My right honourable and learned friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice has met representatives of the CBI, the multinational chairmen’s group of the International Chamber of Commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, the British Chambers of Commerce and Transparency International. We are trying to make sure that this is understood and it is going to be implemented effectively. I certainly will take note of the comments made in this House today about the sense of urgency.
Prisoner Transfer Agreements
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Lord McNally
I will certainly take back to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the idea of an international conference, which I presume would also come within the bailiwick of the Foreign Secretary. The key thing to remember, however, is that the idea of the prisoner exchange is for prisoners to have the right to return—for most British prisoners, to return to Britain to serve their sentence is a considerable advantage in the first place—so the aim is not to second-guess the authorities in countries where they have committed offences. It is important that we keep that in mind.
Lord Bach
We on this side absolutely accept that this is a difficult problem that needs careful handling. While making it quite clear that I am not talking about any individual case—it would be wrong to do so from the Front Bench—I think that the right reverend Prelate has a point, which I hope the Minister and his officials will look into. If someone on a fixed sentence is transferred back to this country, very little can be done in terms of releasing that person earlier than when the fixed sentence finishes, whereas if they have committed a worse offence but are on a whole-life sentence, it is easier to release them earlier. That seems to be a bit of an anomaly, and the Government of which I was a member obviously faced the same anomaly as the noble Lord’s Government. Does he agree that that is the general point that needs carefully to be looked into?
Lord McNally
I agree. I am not a lawyer, but I am advised that that is exactly the position we have in this country: the people in jail on very long fixed terms and those on life sentences are treated differently when trying to vary those sentences. I go back to the central issue, which is that the transfer of prisoners home is to allow them to serve their sentences back home, not to benefit from a review of sentences. However, I acknowledge that the points made by my noble friend Lord Avebury and the right reverend Prelate are worthy of review by Ministers. We have now received a submission from officials on this, which we will study along with the remarks made in these exchanges. When possible, we will make the House aware of our conclusions.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Bach Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I, too, support my noble friend Lord Brooke and reiterate my thanks to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for his kindness in meeting several of us to discuss the amendment.
One has to remember that the City has fewer than 7,000 electors. It is smaller than a great many wards. The arguments for keeping it as a single whole to be attached to one other constituency seem to me to be overwhelming. The idea that one should split the City between two or three different constituencies is very odd indeed. The only question is: does that need to be reflected in the Bill, as under my noble friend's amendment; or is it enough to leave it to the boundary commissioners? I strongly urge that there should be some reflection of this very important case in the Bill. I hope that my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench will be able to give us some comfort.
Lord Bach
We on the opposition Front Bench also support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke. We hope that he has, in his usual way, managed to persuade the noble and learned Lord of the good sense of what he proposes. I give him a word of advice: if he does not get satisfaction from the noble and learned Lord, I suggest that he presses the issue to a vote.
EU: Police and Justice
Lord Bach Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord McNally
I will have to check carefully whether “daft” is a parliamentary term, but I would have thought that such a course of action would be somewhere in that range of description.
Lord Bach
My Lords, it is very good to have the Minister back answering Questions on behalf of the Government. We missed him.
The Minister will know that, during the last Parliament, the Justice Select Committee looked at this matter with some care and, I have to say, commended the last Government for much that they did in this undoubtedly very complex field. The present Government are to be commended on their reply to the Select Committee of another place, in which they said that,
“this Government intends to play a strong and positive role in the European Union”.
We say “Hear, hear” to that.
Would the Minister agree that what are needed before we move to legislation of any kind under the Stockholm programme are evidence-based proposals and a long look before we actually legislate? Is it not the truth about this matter that it is necessary always to be sensible and practical about it?
Lord McNally
My Lords, yes it is. That is why we are following the pattern, as the noble Lord said, of looking at these matters in a pragmatic and practical way, with a mind to defending essential British interests and making sure that our judicial system is protected while also ensuring that we retain the many benefits of cross-border and EU co-operation referred to by my noble friend Lord Thomas.
Bill of Rights
Lord Bach Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord McNally
The coalition agreement made it clear that this exercise would be a matter of building on the European Convention on Human Rights. That remains our intention.
Lord Bach
The Minister is well known and widely respected for his support for the Human Rights Act. Does he agree that the introduction of that Act by the previous Labour Government, supported by his party, represented a huge step forward for the liberty and freedom of the British people?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I most certainly do but, as has been said, the previous Government were taking a long, hard look at that legislation—and quite sensibly, because the Act is sometimes misrepresented and misreported. Anyone who believes in it, as I do, would also recognise that it does not have the national buy-in which I would like to see for a Human Rights Act. Our exercise will educate people and give them a greater understanding about what I referred to otherwise. It is not a Human Rights Act for villains. It is our Human Rights Act and the more we understand that, the better it will be.