Legal Aid
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Lord McNally
My Lords, I did not say that they were all being paid on time, but I did say that the Legal Services Commission is addressing the problem that has arisen. A backlog had built up and the commission faced criticism, but it has addressed the problem and is moving to cut the backlog. So I am not being disingenuous in any way. I am acknowledging that there has been a problem, which the commission is addressing. It maintains that the vast majority of payments are being made within their published target times.
Lord Bach
My Lords, the Question tabled by the noble Baroness is about legal aid practitioners in the field of domestic violence. Based on the incredibly restrictive definition of domestic violence set out in the legal aid Bill currently going through another place, how do the Government propose to protect women who are at risk of domestic violence for the first time?
Lord McNally
My Lords, we will eventually discuss the various scopes in the legal aid Bill. The Government are satisfied with the scopes they have set in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill and believe that they cover the most vulnerable in family and domestic law. But I freely admit that we are going to have some interesting debates on the matter. I hope that that helps the noble Lord. The debate has yet to come to this House.
Freedom of Information (Designation as Public Authorities) Order 2011
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Lord Maclennan of Rogart
The order before us is welcome, in general terms. As the extension of the operation of the Freedom of Information Act to the three bodies concerned was first raised as long ago as 2007, there has been plenty of time for grave, or even limited, concerns to be raised about the matter. There are, consequently, only some quite small matters that spring to my mind as being worthy of inquiry. These arise not so much from the propositions themselves as from the impact assessment, which was published in June of this year, and the very helpful Explanatory Memorandum.
This memorandum describes ACPO as being a professional body, not a staff association. I find that concept a little hard to come to terms with because there seem to be occasions when ACPO does, to some extent, consider matters that are peculiar to the police and may not have a direct public impact. I am thinking, for example, of whether it would be desirable for their reactions to a proposed restructuring of the police to be identified as the views of individuals participating in a debate on the subject. It is clear that the views of ACPO as a whole on such a restructuring should be engaged, but it cannot be entirely desirable for the way that debate took place to be made public. I know that individual members of ACPO are already subject to inquiry under the Freedom of Information Act, so perhaps I am splitting hairs. However, there must be matters that it is appropriate for professional associations not to disclose because they apply to them and not necessarily to the public.
The more important issue arises from the indication that the Government are continuing the process of scrutiny of the consequences of the Freedom of Information Act, although this may be just a failure of understanding on my part. The Explanatory Memorandum that we have been given indicates that that is an ongoing process, but that the results might be known by the end of this month. That is referred to in paragraph 12, “Monitoring & review”. It states that any changes to be made to the FOI Act as a whole will be contained in a memorandum to be submitted to the Justice Committee later this calendar year. How extensive and deep will the inquiry be? Are all the departments and all the many bodies covered being asked to make a submission? That must create a very considerable body of work.
That should be viewed in conjunction with what was stated in the impact assessment of the policy review; namely, that there will be no arrangements in place that will allow a systematic collection of monitoring information for future policy review. To invite all the bodies covered by FOI to make submissions once as a kind of big research exercise is perfectly sensible and reasonable, and was envisaged when the Act was brought forward. However, if we are to maintain proper parliamentary oversight of the effectiveness of this scrutiny, this openness and the purposes of the Act, it would make sense if problems that arose in the administration of the Act were noted and tabulated so that it was relatively easy for the bodies, where there is a conflict, to produce that information without going into the difficult process of historical digging, which would take far longer and require more public funding. I rather question the wisdom of not having a systematic collection of monitoring information for future policy reviews if that is the case.
Apart from that relatively minor matter, I endorse the intentions of the Government and am glad that these provisions have been brought forward.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the order so clearly and other noble Lords who have asked questions of some importance, particularly the final question, which the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, majored on, which was around the Government’s plans for reviewing the Freedom of Information Act.
I know that the Minister is giving what they nowadays describe as a keynote address this Thursday at the Westminster Legal Policy Forum on the very topical subject of:
“The future of Freedom of Information—challenges for expansion”.
I, alas, cannot be present because of duties in the House. If this sounds like an advertisement to go and hear the noble Lord, that is exactly what it is. However, I hope that he may be able to say something both this afternoon, in response to his noble friend Lord Maclennan, and on Thursday, because I know that he has particular duties in ministerial terms as far as this Act is concerned. I hope that he can perhaps unveil slightly today what he may say to his other audience on Thursday.
We support the order. The Freedom of Information Act was one of the substantial achievements of the previous Government. It will be long-standing and of substantial value to our freedoms. It does not always seem that way if you are sitting in a ministerial chair or even in a senior civil servant’s chair. It can be awkward, difficult and seem sometimes almost impossible, but that is precisely why it is in existence. So we support both the Act and this minor order—minor not for the three bodies involved but in the great scheme of things. It was in March 2010, as paragraph 8.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum tells us, that the decision to bring these bodies within the Act under Section 5 was made and communicated to each body. We are delighted to see the order before the Committee today.
My only question to the Minister is one that I mentioned to him briefly earlier. We read in paragraph 8.4 that two of the bodies “welcomed publicly” the fact that an order such as this one was to be made, bringing them within the scope of the Act. It does not say anything about the response of the third body, UCAS. Can the Minister help the Committee with how UCAS responded?
As I said at the start of my few remarks, we support what the Government are doing on this occasion.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, first, I apologise for being slightly late. I was listening to the debate on the Floor of the House and noticed that this subject had come up. I thought that I would come up and listen to the Minister.
I can well understand that we are talking about the chief police officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Of course, we have a devolved Parliament for Scotland, and there are several police forces in Scotland. Will the Minister consult the Scottish Parliament to see that freedom of information will be available in this respect for police authorities north of the border?
The Minister has said that he, on behalf of his party, welcomes freedom of information. It did not stop those who were in an executive position complaining about freedom of information after it was pushed through Parliament. Many officials and Cabinet Ministers sleepwalked through that particular incident. I make no complaint about the legislation; I simply ask the Minister a question. Many journalists use freedom of information so that they can get what is best described as an angle for their particular story. When they ask the question and there follows a period of, let us say, 27 days—although I may be contradicted on that—I have known it to be the case with matters of the House that they have complained bitterly that the freedom of information was given to them and to the general public. They have complained bitterly that it spoiled their story that everybody else should get the information. Freedom of information is about everybody getting that information. They are on record as complaining; they are using it as a device to get a scoop, or whatever they call it.
I feel strongly that once the information is issued to the applicant for that freedom of information, it should be put in the public domain immediately afterwards. In other words, if the information is given to the applicant at 2 pm on a given day, by one minute past two everyone should be able to get that information. I know that some people say that the identity of an applicant should not matter and that you should not know who they are. However, it is a bit rich if an application is made by someone sitting in garret in Toronto, asking for information, which takes a considerable amount of public funding. We should at least know whether a taxpayer of this country is making that application. Can the Minister mention that? It is not fair that someone who has nothing else to do with their time in another country can make an application and no one has to say where they come from. That is very important.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am very grateful for all the contributions, which have been extremely helpful in putting this order in perspective.
Let me deal first with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. If it was thought that a matter discussed by ACPO was should properly be protected for reasons of national security, the Act contains the capacity to claim exemptions for that information. That can, of course, be challenged through the Information Commissioner, The noble Lord is right to say that ACPO could sometimes discuss security matters but the Act makes provisions for the protection of national security in those circumstances.
The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, raised a specific case in relation to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. I cannot comment on individual cases. HMRC can protect commercial confidentiality in its dealings. I will be as interested as the noble Lord is to discover what the Public Accounts Committee finds out but it is a matter for that committee, rather than for us.
My noble friend Lord Maclennan, pointed out that the matter of those three bodies was first raised in 2007 and 2009. I am surprised not to see the noble Lord, Lord Wills, here, who turns up at these debates like Banquo’s ghost to point out that he was about to do X or Y on freedom of information, or that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, was. I acknowledge that this is part of a process started under the previous Administration. Indeed, I consider the Freedom of Information Act to be one of their great successes. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, is quite right: the fact that Ministers and public officials are sometimes discomfited by the Act has always been proof positive that it was a good piece of legislation.
My noble friend Lord Maclennan, asked how ACPO can have free and open discussions before ACPO policy is decided. We understand that bodies need a space in which to work out their policy but, as I recall, that was the great argument about Cabinet discussions as well. There is always a tension between having the right to know what has gone on in an organisation and protecting free discussion before a collective decision is made. ACPO welcomed its inclusion, and I am quite sure that it will manage to work out how to operate under the Act.
I understand the concern of my noble friend Lord Maclennan that we seem to be engaging in a one-off exercise, but that is not true; we will continue to monitor the working of the Act. I am very pleased that we have moved more quickly than we needed to post-legislative scrutiny; that is entirely healthy. The document to which the noble Lord referred is being prepared by my department as part of the process of post-legislative scrutiny. It will be an assessment of the working of the Act, which will provide a basic working document to the Justice Committee to allow it to start its work of post-legislative scrutiny.
That process will go in parallel with the exercise being carried out by my right honourable friend Francis Maude on the right to data, in which we will also try to push the boundaries of the citizen’s right to know about information. I understand where my noble friend is coming from in asking where all this fits. We are perhaps not moving in straight order on this, but we are getting the job done. By the end of this process many more organisations will be covered by freedom of information. We will have a lot more information proactively coming from government through the right to data process. As a result, we will have much more open government, with all the benefits that come from it.
I turn to points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Martin, a number of which I thoroughly agree with. There have been journalists who have turned freedom of information into a kind of cottage industry. I again hope that the transparency agenda will make this less necessary, and that people will get the information that they want. I take his point about immediate publication. In pushing forward the agenda we press organisations to publish immediately or as soon as possible. In certain circumstances there may be a reason to consult and delay, but in the main I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Martin, said. This is not information for an individual journalist; this is public information, and should be made public as quickly as possible.
I was interested in his points about the Republic of Ireland. I was on the pre-legislative committee that looked at freedom of information. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, is nodding; he will recall that one of the most enthusiastic pieces of evidence we received about freedom of information was from the Irish freedom of information director.
Lord McNally
Was it the Minister who came before us? The interesting thing about that was that the Irish have had post-legislative scrutiny of their own legislation and have brought in a number of restrictions, such as the one that the noble Lord, Lord Martin, referred to. They have brought in charges for some aspects of freedom of information.
The critics of freedom of information say that it puts unfair burdens and great costs on departments, as referred to before by the noble Lord, Lord Martin. I hope that the Justice Committee will take a good look at how the Act is working, take evidence from its critics and supporters, and then take us forward as we have indicated.
On the question that the noble Lord, Lord Martin, raised about ACPO Scotland, freedom of information is a devolved matter, and the inclusion of ACPO Scotland is a matter for the Scottish Government. I hope I have covered the issues raised—
Lord McNally
I do apologise. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, raised that and I found the answer, which is twofold. Of the three, it was UCAS which raised some concerns when discussions began. Its concerns were the costs it would face in complying with the FOI Act, how it would protect sensitive information, and other costs outlined in the impact assessment. During consultation it was satisfied that the FOI Act exemptions could protect this information, and since those consultations it has been happy to see itself included within the ambit of the Act. I apologise that I got carried away with the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Martin. Does he have another?
Human Rights Act 1998
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
Yes, my Lords. However, as the noble Lord will be aware, the Government established an independent commission to investigate the creation of a UK Bill of Rights in March 2011, thus fulfilling a commitment made in the coalition’s programme for government.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. The manner in which this important issue was not so much debated as debased last week by senior Cabinet Ministers was frankly infantile and not worthy of the serious matters involved. For a more serious consideration of the debate, may I urge the Minister and perhaps all Members of the House to read the article by my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine of Lairg, published in today’s Guardian? The Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have both said, and I quote the latter’s words, that,
“the Human Rights Act needs to go”.
Does the Minister agree with his right honourable friend the Home Secretary?
Lord McNally
One of the problems about party conferences is that the newspapers like to heighten and find clashes between Ministers. I am old enough to remember it said that every time Harold Macmillan returned from a journey abroad Rab Butler was at the bottom of the steps to grip him warmly by the throat. The Government’s policy is very clear, and the Home Secretary and Justice Secretary are on exactly the same page on this. The commission will investigate the creation of a UK Bill of Rights that incorporates and builds on all our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights. It will provide interim advice to the Government on the ongoing Interlaken process to reform the Strasbourg court ahead of the UK chairmanship of the Council of Europe. That is the Government’s policy.
First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber) Fees Order 2011
Lord Bach Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Bach
My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for explaining the order in his opening remarks so clearly and succinctly. I also thank the other speakers in the debate. It could be argued that between them they pretty well demolished the entire point of the order. Of course, when we were in government, we too thought of this—but we did not implement it. It now falls to the Minister to justify why we should take the steps that he intends us to take.
Clearly, this is an important and controversial order. Many points that I wanted to make have been very well made already by the three Back-Bench speakers. It is an important moment not least because—as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said, and as paragraph 4.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum states—this is the first instance of fees being imposed in an action by the state against an individual.
Secondly, perhaps a little less importantly—this point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—it would also be on top of the fee already paid for making the application that is being appealed against. This point was very well made by the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association in its briefing to noble Lords.
The first application for leave to remain in the United Kingdom—the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, used this example—costs £900 per person. If it is made at the UKBA, the cost will be £1,250 per person. The fee is not for the appeal but for the original application. It costs £70 to apply for a visitor's visa from abroad. An application for a student visa costs £220, and there are other costs as well. The fee is not refunded if the application is refused. I suppose that some unmeritorious appeals might not be heard as a consequence of the order but I wonder, particularly after the analysis of the impact assessment made by noble Lords, how much the Government really expect to save from the order before us.
I pay tribute to the Government because they have conceded on more points following the consultation. This point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree. They have made genuine concessions, particularly in the exemptions under Article 5 of the order in the areas of under-18s, children in need, asylum support, people in detention, appeals and decisions to remove. That is a more generous list than before the consultation began. However, the House would like to ask—noble Lords already have, in so many words—whether the exemptions are wide enough. In particular, Article 5(2) states:
“No fee is payable where, at the time the fee would otherwise become payable, the appellant is, under the 1999 Act”,
in receipt of legal aid. How can this provision be squared with the proposed withdrawal of legal aid for many areas? To put it mildly, there is an irony in its appearance in the order that we are being asked to pass tonight when the legal aid Bill is well on its way to this House.
Article 5(3) in a number of cases will become an irrelevance. Asylum cases will generally stay in scope, but much immigration law will be removed from scope if the Government get their way. I hope the noble Lord will not object if I repeat a question that was asked by my honourable friend Mr Andrew Slaughter MP, who spoke from the opposition Front Bench when the order was debated in another place on 14 September last. He asked why, if legal aid becomes no longer a criteria simply because it does not exist, an exemption should not be made for those on low incomes or specified benefits who would have been eligible for legal aid if it had still existed.
The Minister drew back the curtain a little on this when he said that the Government would come forward to make allowance for legal aid going out of scope. However, I would like him in his reply to tell us a little more about what the Government plan. Surely the criteria should remain the same whether legal aid exists or not. The Minister in another place did not answer that question in his summing up. I hope that the noble Lord will tonight.
Nor did the Minister in another place answer when he was asked to clarify figures from 2009-10 for success rates when public funding was available in these cases, and for when it was not. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, told us about the difference between oral and paper hearings. These questions are about when legal aid was available. I ask whether the following figures are correct. As far as concerns migration, there was a 52 per cent success rate on appeal without legal aid but a 60 per cent success rate with legal aid. On asylum cases, there was a 25 per cent success rate on appeal without legal aid and a 37 per cent success rate with legal aid. For entry clearance cases, there was a 36 per cent success rate without legal aid and a 65 per cent success rate with legal aid. Lastly, for family visits, there was a 44 per cent success rate without representation under legal aid and 53 per cent success with legal aid. The Minister in another place was not able to confirm whether the figures were correct. It may be that the Minister tonight cannot answer the question, either. If he cannot, I would be very grateful if he would write a letter with the answers to the questions, which will appear in Hansard, and send a copy both to me and to other noble Lords who spoke in the debate. Those figures seem to imply, and in fact go further than that to prove, that representation is of enormous benefit to appellants. This is hardly a surprising conclusion but it is of course a very important one in the arguments about legal aid that we will no doubt enjoy in a few weeks.
Transparency International: Corruption Perceptions Index
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Lord McNally
Yes, my Lords, we have studied the document, and we keep close contact with Transparency International, which does a very effective job of keeping these matters before the public and before Governments. However, in this country there are two dangers. One is to say, “Oh, we don’t need to do anything because we are actually the ones who obey all the laws and it’s all the others who are corrupt”, and the other is to believe that we are somehow burdened down with corruption. Both extremes are wrong. There is corruption in this country, as in all countries, but it is not left untouched. As I say, the Bribery Act is in place, and my noble friend referred to the SFO, which is now playing an important part in the new structure of crime prevention set up by the Home Secretary. In consultation with law officers and other relevant colleagues, the Home Secretary is currently considering options for delivering the Government’s commitment to improve capability to tackle economic crime. The work of the Serious Fraud Office will play a key part in that strategy.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I am delighted that the Minister is praising the Bribery Act and using it in defence of the present position. He will of course recognise that it was an Act passed under a Labour Government, with support from all over the House. The worry is that it was not implemented until 1 July this year. My first question is why it took so long to implement and my second, bearing in mind that it has only been in force since 1 July, is whether there are any messages from the trenches. Is it working, or not?
Lord McNally
Of course it was, and all parts of the House can take credit for the fact that the Bribery Act was put on the statute book. The reason for the pause was for consultation and education, so that the Act was seen for what it is—a very useful piece of anti-corruption legislation. When we first came into office, there were lots of rumours going round that if you took a client out for a drink, for example, you would be charged under the Bribery Act, and various bodies, eager to make an honest penny, were offering consultancies to companies on how to avoid these various traps and pitfalls. So in consultation with the CBI, small business and organisations across the board, we worked very hard on guidance, which we published. The message from the trenches is that the Bribery Act is in place, it is effective, and if anybody is worried about its implications, the key thing to do is not to bribe.
Legal Aid
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Lord McNally
I believe it is joined-up government but it is set against the reality that all departments are faced with severe budget restrictions. I have never denied from the Dispatch Box that if you cut budgets in areas that are helping vulnerable people there will be impacts on the aid available to them. In my department and other departments we are trying to focus the scope of what we are doing so that we target what is available to the most vulnerable and needy.
Lord Bach
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that, as a direct result of Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals in the Bill that is now in another place, young children who have been severely injured will no longer be able to get legal aid to pursue their claims for clinical negligence? Is that not an outrage in a civilised society? How do the Government justify this denial of access to justice?
Lord McNally
The Government’s assessment is that in most clinical negligence cases it will be possible to carry actions forward through arrangements with solicitors willing to take the cases. Where it is not, the special legal aid fund will kick in for cases not covered by such arrangements. It is not the case that people will not have access to justice in clinical negligence cases; they will continue to have access to justice. We have taken this tough decision because we believe that there are alternative ways of gaining access to justice, with the safety net of the special fund, which will be in the control of my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor.
Personal Injury Lawyers
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Lord McNally
I agree with my noble friend. I hope that the more the public are aware of what the noble Lord described as this “dirty little secret”, the more it is in the public domain and the more that all parts of the insurance industry, including the insurance companies, solicitors and the consumers, will demand—and we will respond to that demand—to ban it.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I am now slightly confused as to the Government's position on referral fees. I note what the noble Lord said in his written response to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, and what he said in his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, today. Have the Government made up their mind to ban referral fees or have they not?
Lord McNally
I am only surprised that someone with such long experience as a Minister should leap on this as if I were dodging the question.
Social Welfare Law
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, our proposals for the future of social welfare law were contained in our response to the consultation paper, Proposals for the Reform of legal aid in England and Wales, made on 21 June. We announced that we would retain legal aid for the highest priority cases, including cases where a person is homeless or at immediate risk of homelessness or to address housing disrepairs that pose a serious risk to life or health and for community care cases. We have decided that legal aid will no longer be routinely available in other social welfare law matters, except for claims currently funded relating to the contravention of the Equality Act 2010.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. A better name for social welfare law would be poverty law. Often through CABs, law centres and private solicitors, this legal aid goes to giving legal advice to the poor and marginalised on legal problems around housing, debt, employment and welfare benefits. The Government, as we have just heard, intend to decimate this type of cost-effective legal aid. Does the noble Lord agree with the reported remarks of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, that these changes will have,
“a disproportionate effect upon the poorest and most vulnerable in society”?
Does he also agree that this removal of access to justice—because that is what it is—is precisely what the late noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, meant when he wrote that,
“denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford to pay is one enemy of the rule of law”?
Lord McNally
My Lords, under our proposals, legal aid will be retained in the highest priority housing cases, where a person’s home is at immediate risk, for homelessness, serious disrepair, unlawful eviction, orders for the sale of the home, and asylum support cases relating to accommodation. Legal aid will be available in debt matters where a person’s home is at immediate risk. We will still be spending about £50 million a year on this section of legal aid.
I have read the comments of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale. I have said from this Dispatch Box that if you have a policy that is aimed at the poorest in our society and you cut the budget, of course there will be an inevitable impact. But in trying to develop this policy we have tried to minimise that impact and focus our resources on those most in need.
Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories) Order 2011
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Lord Moynihan
My Lords, I also support the order subject to the continued exemption for competitive sport, which the world of sport promoted and argued for at length in 2004 when the Bill came before this House in the first instance. It may help your Lordships if I briefly summarise the issue at stake there, in seeking reassurance from the Minister that in extending the list we retain the fundamental principle that competitive sport in this country will be exempt from the order, and will continue to be exempt from the Act.
It is important that the voice of sport continues to be heard before the order is accepted, as it could have a fundamental impact on the running of sport and its selection procedures since no surgery is required as a prerequisite for transsexuals to change their sex and have new birth certificates issued, with the full weight of the law backing their newly acquired legal gender not only in this country but in the countries listed in the order.
In pursuing an original amendment to the Bill, which was eventually accepted by the then Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, I sought to enable UK sporting bodies to continue to make decisions about whether individual transsexual people may take part in competitive sports competitions. At the time I was very conscious that national governing bodies of sport needed to be aware that considerable work would have to done to establish clear reasons for restriction of competition related to fair competition and/or the safety of competitors. The onus of proof is likely to be with the complainant, but the national governing bodies of sport could be vulnerable if policies, procedures and decisions are not robust. Legal precedents, such as the case of Renée Richards, the transgender female who won the right to compete in women’s tennis in the US Supreme Court, are likely to provide further challenges to sport’s regulation of single-sex competition.
There are several potential problems related to the recognition of the physical and physiological advantages attached to men and women in different competitive activities. This was reflected in my amendment, which was accepted by the then Government. It stated:
“A sport is a gender-affected sport if the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one gender would put them at a disadvantage to average persons of the other gender as competitors in events involving the sport”.
Fairness in competition is facilitated by making provision for competition by categories other than sex—for example, age and weight. However, the latter categories are easy to define using the arbitrary limits of date of birth and weight on a specific date before or the day of competition. One of the intentions of the Gender Recognition Act was to protect the rights of individuals who wish to blur the boundaries between genders in their private lives. For sport, that is inherently problematic. It denies the only arbitrary limit between the categories of male and female: genetic sex at birth, as determined by chromosomes. The regulation of single-sex competition in sport currently depends on that arbitrary limit. Since the EHRA allows for the interests of the community at large to override the rights of the few, that arguably would mean that single-sex sporting competition may continue without legal challenge on the basis of sex at birth.
I give that background purely to set the scene for asking the Minister whether, irrespective of the legislation in each of the territories and countries in the order, governing bodies of sport in this country will still have the final word in determining those who enter into either the male or the female category, at whatever level of competitive sport. Should that remain the case, as I understand that it does, the order will have my full support. I look to the Minister for reassurance on that.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I can be brief. The Opposition support the order. I thank the Minister and other speakers in the debate; I thank him particularly for the clear way in which he outlined the order. I ask him to respond to the interesting points made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, about the position as regards sport.
This is clearly an affirmative order; it has to come before the Committee. There will be changes in the future, of course; I hope that other countries come on to the list rather than countries coming off it. Will it really be necessary to bring that to a Committee sitting in this House and the other place, or is there any way around that? I do not know whether the previous Government willingly made this an affirmative order or whether it was forced on them by the then Opposition; it could have been either. In my view, if this is the sort of order to come forward, it would be much better for it not to be affirmative.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I thank the speakers who have participated in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, has a long and proud history in such legislation. Like him, I welcome the fact that we live in a world of growing tolerance in this area, which for the individuals concerned needs tolerance and understanding.
The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised an important point and one on which I will try to give some clarification. The effect of a UK gender recognition certificate is the same regardless of whether it is obtained under the overseas application process or the standard application process. The overseas application process simply enables a transsexual person to obtain legal recognition in the UK through a simplified process if they have already satisfied authorities overseas that they live fully and permanently in their acquired gender. It does not enable a person to be treated in the UK as they would be in their home state. The effect of a gender recognition certificate is subject to UK law. That includes a transsexual person’s right to compete in competitive sporting events in the UK.
As originally drafted, Section 19 of the Gender Recognition Act made it lawful to prohibit a transsexual person with a gender recognition certificate from participating in a sporting event in their acquired gender if the restrictions were necessary to secure fair competition or the safety of other competitors. The Equality Act 2010 presented an opportunity to replace Section 19 and an overlapping provision of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. After all, the Gender Recognition Act is not intended to protect transsexual people from discrimination; rather, it provides a mechanism whereby a transsexual person can obtain a change of legal status that reflects the gender in which they live permanently. Protection from discrimination lies in equality legislation. For this reason, Section 19 of the Gender Recognition Act and Section 44(2) of the Sex Discrimination Act were repealed and their effect replicated in Section 195(2) of the Equality Act. That provision makes it lawful to restrict participation of transsexual people in separate sporting competitions for men and women if this is necessary to secure fair competition and the safety of competitors. The participation of a transsexual person from overseas in a competitive sporting event in the UK is subject to these provisions. This remains the case even if that person has obtained a UK gender recognition certificate. I hope that that gives the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, the clarity and reassurance that he sought. I know how important that is.
I was intrigued by the final question of the noble Lord, Lord Bach. We would have to amend the procedure for future orders but it is a valid point. I suspect that, at the time, Parliament was still getting used to this whole idea. We may need to look at the procedure and discuss matters through the usual channels to see if it can be done without the necessary affirmative resolution. Perhaps this is something that will only come before the House once every four or five years as updates are made. It is a valid point and I will take it back.
Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) Order 2011
Lord Bach Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Bach
My Lords, I served under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, on a Joint Committee looking at the draft Bill. I was not a Minister at the time that the Bill went through, although I took some part in it from the Back Benches, so while I have some form on this, I do not have as much the noble Lord. I thought at the time, and I think even more strongly now, that the Bill was a very significant piece of legislation indeed, one that is already beginning to have genuinely profound effects on all three branches of the legal profession.
I congratulate the board on what it is doing. It has done a fine job until now, but as with all changes, and some of these are fairly revolutionary, it is important that the details are right and particularly important that they must be introduced sensitively. That is why I strongly support what has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Hunt of Wirral, about the point of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. I, too, will ask the question because it really is essential that the order is brought forward as soon as possible, and therefore before alternative business structure firms become a reality. Indeed, I am not going to be as shy as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about quoting the Minister’s colleague, who was an opposition spokesman when the Bill passed through the House of Commons. He said this:
“The effectiveness of fitness-to-own provisions is a crucial element of the public protections that need to be in place before external ownership of ABS firms can safely be permitted. It is essential to avoid the spectre of law firms being owned by criminal elements”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal Services Bill Committee, 22/6/07; col. 300.]
If that was true then, it is certainly true now, and he is in a position, as is the noble Lord, to do something about it. It is important that the order amending the exceptions to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is brought forward, and we look forward to the noble Lord telling us, when he replies to the debate, precisely when it will happen. We do not oppose either of the orders, and—again, rather late in the day—I thank the noble Lord for introducing them so clearly.
I want to say a little more before sitting down. On the statutory instrument concerning appeals, as I understand it the Law Society’s concerns were around the point that appeals from ABS firms, which were regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority, would go to the First-tier Chamber, whereas appeals and decisions from other law firms would go to the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal, the SDT. Now the SRA has agreed to use the SDT for appeals to do with alternative business structure firms. That was apparently agreed in March this year, but there is some surprise that no statutory instrument has yet appeared to put that decision into effect. Finally—as I am sure the Minister will be relived to hear—when will that statutory instrument be brought forward, and why has there been a delay? I congratulate the Minister on bringing the orders forward.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I have said before that, as a non-lawyer there is nothing more daunting than facing the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who, as he confessed, was the Minister responsible when the key legislation was—
Lord Bach
I am sorry to interrupt. The noble Lord was not listening with his usual attention, or else I was particularly inarticulate. I served on the Joint Committee under the noble Lord’s chairmanship as a Back-Bencher, and was indeed a Back-Bencher when the legislation went through, so I cannot be held to blame or praise for the legislation itself.
Lord McNally
I now fully understand. I will have to look at the noble Lord’s CV: I had always assumed that he had ministerial responsibility going back well over a decade.
Lord McNally
In any case, both the noble Lord, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, fill me with fear on this.
I am sorry about presenting these matters as separate orders; I was only following orders, as they say. I am pleased that the contributions have been, in the main, supportive and that it is agreed that the initial legislation and what we are trying to do now take us forward into a new era of legal service provision. In that respect, I was particularly reassured by the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, from her position as spokesperson or defender of consumers in these areas, found them useful.
My heart, too, sank when I saw that, despite all the consultation and so on, we had ended up with two lines of solutions, whereas one would be much more preferable. We will continue to use our good offices to encourage regulation and lines of appeal in this area to be as simple and clear as possible. I share with the Committee that, the other day, I had the great honour of meeting the Vice-Minister of Justice for the People’s Republic of China. In a matter of general discussion, he asked me quite out of the blue if I could explain to him the regulatory system for our barristers and solicitors. The brief mentioned about nine different organisations, with any multiple of them having lines of appeal. I ended up by assuring the Vice-Minister of the absolute integrity and independence of the various branches of our legal profession and that I would write to him.
Lord McNally
Yes, in Mandarin and with a suitable chart. We hope that the orders go some way along the line of trying to get some order into these things.
On the matter of the missing orders, they are being drafted. We are undertaking further consultation. At this stage, the draft standing order relating to the society is not finalised. Until it is, it cannot be approved to be laid before Parliament. As the order is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, it will require parliamentary debate and approval before the order can be made. We will be back, folks.
Quickly, on the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, that again is under review. The point that was made is being taken on board. The Law Society Council will have arrangements in place to consider fitness of owners. They are set out in its licensing rules. The Law Society Council has asked for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act to be extended. An order has been laid before the House adding the head of legal practices and head of financial administration to be covered by the law. Again, I note what has been said here. These are serious matters and areas that need to be tidied up as we go through the process of bringing the ABSs on board and getting the right lines of appeal.
I am just seeing if there is anything else that I have either not understood or not covered. A draft order will be debated in the House next week. We are aware of the additional requirements sought for owners and managers. The matter is being discussed at the moment so, again, watch this space. I thank the contributors to the debate. I hope that this has been enough clarification. If I have missed things I will write to noble Lords.
My noble friend Lord Thomas raised the point about what the solicitors did not like. The Law Society did not sign up because of a principal concern that changes were needed to the First-tier Tribunal general regulatory chamber rules to allow a general power to award costs. The LSB has asked the tribunal procedures committee to consider changes to its costs rules but, on 1 March 2011, the committee came to the preliminary view that the rules in their current form were adequate to determine whether one party or another should pay costs. The Law Society has not consented to this order. As was said, it has made provision in its proposed licensing rules for the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal to be the appellate body for its licensing appeals.