First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber) Fees Order 2011

Lord Bach Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

“Justice” is not a word that comes into the Explanatory Memorandum or the impact analysis; the objective is to save money, irrespective of whether the outcomes conform with the merit of the applications.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for explaining the order in his opening remarks so clearly and succinctly. I also thank the other speakers in the debate. It could be argued that between them they pretty well demolished the entire point of the order. Of course, when we were in government, we too thought of this—but we did not implement it. It now falls to the Minister to justify why we should take the steps that he intends us to take.

Clearly, this is an important and controversial order. Many points that I wanted to make have been very well made already by the three Back-Bench speakers. It is an important moment not least because—as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said, and as paragraph 4.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum states—this is the first instance of fees being imposed in an action by the state against an individual.

Secondly, perhaps a little less importantly—this point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—it would also be on top of the fee already paid for making the application that is being appealed against. This point was very well made by the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association in its briefing to noble Lords.

The first application for leave to remain in the United Kingdom—the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, used this example—costs £900 per person. If it is made at the UKBA, the cost will be £1,250 per person. The fee is not for the appeal but for the original application. It costs £70 to apply for a visitor's visa from abroad. An application for a student visa costs £220, and there are other costs as well. The fee is not refunded if the application is refused. I suppose that some unmeritorious appeals might not be heard as a consequence of the order but I wonder, particularly after the analysis of the impact assessment made by noble Lords, how much the Government really expect to save from the order before us.

I pay tribute to the Government because they have conceded on more points following the consultation. This point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree. They have made genuine concessions, particularly in the exemptions under Article 5 of the order in the areas of under-18s, children in need, asylum support, people in detention, appeals and decisions to remove. That is a more generous list than before the consultation began. However, the House would like to ask—noble Lords already have, in so many words—whether the exemptions are wide enough. In particular, Article 5(2) states:

“No fee is payable where, at the time the fee would otherwise become payable, the appellant is, under the 1999 Act”,

in receipt of legal aid. How can this provision be squared with the proposed withdrawal of legal aid for many areas? To put it mildly, there is an irony in its appearance in the order that we are being asked to pass tonight when the legal aid Bill is well on its way to this House.

Article 5(3) in a number of cases will become an irrelevance. Asylum cases will generally stay in scope, but much immigration law will be removed from scope if the Government get their way. I hope the noble Lord will not object if I repeat a question that was asked by my honourable friend Mr Andrew Slaughter MP, who spoke from the opposition Front Bench when the order was debated in another place on 14 September last. He asked why, if legal aid becomes no longer a criteria simply because it does not exist, an exemption should not be made for those on low incomes or specified benefits who would have been eligible for legal aid if it had still existed.

The Minister drew back the curtain a little on this when he said that the Government would come forward to make allowance for legal aid going out of scope. However, I would like him in his reply to tell us a little more about what the Government plan. Surely the criteria should remain the same whether legal aid exists or not. The Minister in another place did not answer that question in his summing up. I hope that the noble Lord will tonight.

Nor did the Minister in another place answer when he was asked to clarify figures from 2009-10 for success rates when public funding was available in these cases, and for when it was not. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, told us about the difference between oral and paper hearings. These questions are about when legal aid was available. I ask whether the following figures are correct. As far as concerns migration, there was a 52 per cent success rate on appeal without legal aid but a 60 per cent success rate with legal aid. On asylum cases, there was a 25 per cent success rate on appeal without legal aid and a 37 per cent success rate with legal aid. For entry clearance cases, there was a 36 per cent success rate without legal aid and a 65 per cent success rate with legal aid. Lastly, for family visits, there was a 44 per cent success rate without representation under legal aid and 53 per cent success with legal aid. The Minister in another place was not able to confirm whether the figures were correct. It may be that the Minister tonight cannot answer the question, either. If he cannot, I would be very grateful if he would write a letter with the answers to the questions, which will appear in Hansard, and send a copy both to me and to other noble Lords who spoke in the debate. Those figures seem to imply, and in fact go further than that to prove, that representation is of enormous benefit to appellants. This is hardly a surprising conclusion but it is of course a very important one in the arguments about legal aid that we will no doubt enjoy in a few weeks.

Transparency International: Corruption Perceptions Index

Lord Bach Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Yes, my Lords, we have studied the document, and we keep close contact with Transparency International, which does a very effective job of keeping these matters before the public and before Governments. However, in this country there are two dangers. One is to say, “Oh, we don’t need to do anything because we are actually the ones who obey all the laws and it’s all the others who are corrupt”, and the other is to believe that we are somehow burdened down with corruption. Both extremes are wrong. There is corruption in this country, as in all countries, but it is not left untouched. As I say, the Bribery Act is in place, and my noble friend referred to the SFO, which is now playing an important part in the new structure of crime prevention set up by the Home Secretary. In consultation with law officers and other relevant colleagues, the Home Secretary is currently considering options for delivering the Government’s commitment to improve capability to tackle economic crime. The work of the Serious Fraud Office will play a key part in that strategy.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I am delighted that the Minister is praising the Bribery Act and using it in defence of the present position. He will of course recognise that it was an Act passed under a Labour Government, with support from all over the House. The worry is that it was not implemented until 1 July this year. My first question is why it took so long to implement and my second, bearing in mind that it has only been in force since 1 July, is whether there are any messages from the trenches. Is it working, or not?

[Lord McNally]

Of course it was, and all parts of the House can take credit for the fact that the Bribery Act was put on the statute book. The reason for the pause was for consultation and education, so that the Act was seen for what it is—a very useful piece of anti-corruption legislation. When we first came into office, there were lots of rumours going round that if you took a client out for a drink, for example, you would be charged under the Bribery Act, and various bodies, eager to make an honest penny, were offering consultancies to companies on how to avoid these various traps and pitfalls. So in consultation with the CBI, small business and organisations across the board, we worked very hard on guidance, which we published. The message from the trenches is that the Bribery Act is in place, it is effective, and if anybody is worried about its implications, the key thing to do is not to bribe.

Legal Aid

Lord Bach Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I believe it is joined-up government but it is set against the reality that all departments are faced with severe budget restrictions. I have never denied from the Dispatch Box that if you cut budgets in areas that are helping vulnerable people there will be impacts on the aid available to them. In my department and other departments we are trying to focus the scope of what we are doing so that we target what is available to the most vulnerable and needy.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that, as a direct result of Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals in the Bill that is now in another place, young children who have been severely injured will no longer be able to get legal aid to pursue their claims for clinical negligence? Is that not an outrage in a civilised society? How do the Government justify this denial of access to justice?

[Lord McNally]

The Government’s assessment is that in most clinical negligence cases it will be possible to carry actions forward through arrangements with solicitors willing to take the cases. Where it is not, the special legal aid fund will kick in for cases not covered by such arrangements. It is not the case that people will not have access to justice in clinical negligence cases; they will continue to have access to justice. We have taken this tough decision because we believe that there are alternative ways of gaining access to justice, with the safety net of the special fund, which will be in the control of my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor.

Personal Injury Lawyers

Lord Bach Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I agree with my noble friend. I hope that the more the public are aware of what the noble Lord described as this “dirty little secret”, the more it is in the public domain and the more that all parts of the insurance industry, including the insurance companies, solicitors and the consumers, will demand—and we will respond to that demand—to ban it.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I am now slightly confused as to the Government's position on referral fees. I note what the noble Lord said in his written response to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, and what he said in his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, today. Have the Government made up their mind to ban referral fees or have they not?

[Lord McNally]

I am only surprised that someone with such long experience as a Minister should leap on this as if I were dodging the question.

Social Welfare Law

Lord Bach Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Bach]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their proposals for the future of social welfare law.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, our proposals for the future of social welfare law were contained in our response to the consultation paper, Proposals for the Reform of legal aid in England and Wales, made on 21 June. We announced that we would retain legal aid for the highest priority cases, including cases where a person is homeless or at immediate risk of homelessness or to address housing disrepairs that pose a serious risk to life or health and for community care cases. We have decided that legal aid will no longer be routinely available in other social welfare law matters, except for claims currently funded relating to the contravention of the Equality Act 2010.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. A better name for social welfare law would be poverty law. Often through CABs, law centres and private solicitors, this legal aid goes to giving legal advice to the poor and marginalised on legal problems around housing, debt, employment and welfare benefits. The Government, as we have just heard, intend to decimate this type of cost-effective legal aid. Does the noble Lord agree with the reported remarks of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, that these changes will have,

“a disproportionate effect upon the poorest and most vulnerable in society”?

Does he also agree that this removal of access to justice—because that is what it is—is precisely what the late noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, meant when he wrote that,

“denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford to pay is one enemy of the rule of law”?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, under our proposals, legal aid will be retained in the highest priority housing cases, where a person’s home is at immediate risk, for homelessness, serious disrepair, unlawful eviction, orders for the sale of the home, and asylum support cases relating to accommodation. Legal aid will be available in debt matters where a person’s home is at immediate risk. We will still be spending about £50 million a year on this section of legal aid.

I have read the comments of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale. I have said from this Dispatch Box that if you have a policy that is aimed at the poorest in our society and you cut the budget, of course there will be an inevitable impact. But in trying to develop this policy we have tried to minimise that impact and focus our resources on those most in need.

Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories) Order 2011

Lord Bach Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, I also support the order subject to the continued exemption for competitive sport, which the world of sport promoted and argued for at length in 2004 when the Bill came before this House in the first instance. It may help your Lordships if I briefly summarise the issue at stake there, in seeking reassurance from the Minister that in extending the list we retain the fundamental principle that competitive sport in this country will be exempt from the order, and will continue to be exempt from the Act.

It is important that the voice of sport continues to be heard before the order is accepted, as it could have a fundamental impact on the running of sport and its selection procedures since no surgery is required as a prerequisite for transsexuals to change their sex and have new birth certificates issued, with the full weight of the law backing their newly acquired legal gender not only in this country but in the countries listed in the order.

In pursuing an original amendment to the Bill, which was eventually accepted by the then Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, I sought to enable UK sporting bodies to continue to make decisions about whether individual transsexual people may take part in competitive sports competitions. At the time I was very conscious that national governing bodies of sport needed to be aware that considerable work would have to done to establish clear reasons for restriction of competition related to fair competition and/or the safety of competitors. The onus of proof is likely to be with the complainant, but the national governing bodies of sport could be vulnerable if policies, procedures and decisions are not robust. Legal precedents, such as the case of Renée Richards, the transgender female who won the right to compete in women’s tennis in the US Supreme Court, are likely to provide further challenges to sport’s regulation of single-sex competition.

There are several potential problems related to the recognition of the physical and physiological advantages attached to men and women in different competitive activities. This was reflected in my amendment, which was accepted by the then Government. It stated:

“A sport is a gender-affected sport if the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one gender would put them at a disadvantage to average persons of the other gender as competitors in events involving the sport”.

Fairness in competition is facilitated by making provision for competition by categories other than sex—for example, age and weight. However, the latter categories are easy to define using the arbitrary limits of date of birth and weight on a specific date before or the day of competition. One of the intentions of the Gender Recognition Act was to protect the rights of individuals who wish to blur the boundaries between genders in their private lives. For sport, that is inherently problematic. It denies the only arbitrary limit between the categories of male and female: genetic sex at birth, as determined by chromosomes. The regulation of single-sex competition in sport currently depends on that arbitrary limit. Since the EHRA allows for the interests of the community at large to override the rights of the few, that arguably would mean that single-sex sporting competition may continue without legal challenge on the basis of sex at birth.

I give that background purely to set the scene for asking the Minister whether, irrespective of the legislation in each of the territories and countries in the order, governing bodies of sport in this country will still have the final word in determining those who enter into either the male or the female category, at whatever level of competitive sport. Should that remain the case, as I understand that it does, the order will have my full support. I look to the Minister for reassurance on that.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I can be brief. The Opposition support the order. I thank the Minister and other speakers in the debate; I thank him particularly for the clear way in which he outlined the order. I ask him to respond to the interesting points made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, about the position as regards sport.

This is clearly an affirmative order; it has to come before the Committee. There will be changes in the future, of course; I hope that other countries come on to the list rather than countries coming off it. Will it really be necessary to bring that to a Committee sitting in this House and the other place, or is there any way around that? I do not know whether the previous Government willingly made this an affirmative order or whether it was forced on them by the then Opposition; it could have been either. In my view, if this is the sort of order to come forward, it would be much better for it not to be affirmative.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I thank the speakers who have participated in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, has a long and proud history in such legislation. Like him, I welcome the fact that we live in a world of growing tolerance in this area, which for the individuals concerned needs tolerance and understanding.

The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised an important point and one on which I will try to give some clarification. The effect of a UK gender recognition certificate is the same regardless of whether it is obtained under the overseas application process or the standard application process. The overseas application process simply enables a transsexual person to obtain legal recognition in the UK through a simplified process if they have already satisfied authorities overseas that they live fully and permanently in their acquired gender. It does not enable a person to be treated in the UK as they would be in their home state. The effect of a gender recognition certificate is subject to UK law. That includes a transsexual person’s right to compete in competitive sporting events in the UK.

As originally drafted, Section 19 of the Gender Recognition Act made it lawful to prohibit a transsexual person with a gender recognition certificate from participating in a sporting event in their acquired gender if the restrictions were necessary to secure fair competition or the safety of other competitors. The Equality Act 2010 presented an opportunity to replace Section 19 and an overlapping provision of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. After all, the Gender Recognition Act is not intended to protect transsexual people from discrimination; rather, it provides a mechanism whereby a transsexual person can obtain a change of legal status that reflects the gender in which they live permanently. Protection from discrimination lies in equality legislation. For this reason, Section 19 of the Gender Recognition Act and Section 44(2) of the Sex Discrimination Act were repealed and their effect replicated in Section 195(2) of the Equality Act. That provision makes it lawful to restrict participation of transsexual people in separate sporting competitions for men and women if this is necessary to secure fair competition and the safety of competitors. The participation of a transsexual person from overseas in a competitive sporting event in the UK is subject to these provisions. This remains the case even if that person has obtained a UK gender recognition certificate. I hope that that gives the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, the clarity and reassurance that he sought. I know how important that is.

I was intrigued by the final question of the noble Lord, Lord Bach. We would have to amend the procedure for future orders but it is a valid point. I suspect that, at the time, Parliament was still getting used to this whole idea. We may need to look at the procedure and discuss matters through the usual channels to see if it can be done without the necessary affirmative resolution. Perhaps this is something that will only come before the House once every four or five years as updates are made. It is a valid point and I will take it back.

Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) Order 2011

Lord Bach Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Grand Committee

These are the two points on which I would welcome an assurance. First, I look to my noble friend the Minister for a commitment that the necessary modification to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act will be made. I understand that he may be pressed to say, “We’ll deal with that in a couple of weeks’ time”, but it would be wonderful if he was able to be more specific. Secondly, I seek an assurance that the provisions of the Legal Services Act allowing the external ownership of law firms will not be implemented until the necessary revision has been made.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I served under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, on a Joint Committee looking at the draft Bill. I was not a Minister at the time that the Bill went through, although I took some part in it from the Back Benches, so while I have some form on this, I do not have as much the noble Lord. I thought at the time, and I think even more strongly now, that the Bill was a very significant piece of legislation indeed, one that is already beginning to have genuinely profound effects on all three branches of the legal profession.

I congratulate the board on what it is doing. It has done a fine job until now, but as with all changes, and some of these are fairly revolutionary, it is important that the details are right and particularly important that they must be introduced sensitively. That is why I strongly support what has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Hunt of Wirral, about the point of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. I, too, will ask the question because it really is essential that the order is brought forward as soon as possible, and therefore before alternative business structure firms become a reality. Indeed, I am not going to be as shy as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about quoting the Minister’s colleague, who was an opposition spokesman when the Bill passed through the House of Commons. He said this:

“The effectiveness of fitness-to-own provisions is a crucial element of the public protections that need to be in place before external ownership of ABS firms can safely be permitted. It is essential to avoid the spectre of law firms being owned by criminal elements”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal Services Bill Committee, 22/6/07; col. 300.]

If that was true then, it is certainly true now, and he is in a position, as is the noble Lord, to do something about it. It is important that the order amending the exceptions to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is brought forward, and we look forward to the noble Lord telling us, when he replies to the debate, precisely when it will happen. We do not oppose either of the orders, and—again, rather late in the day—I thank the noble Lord for introducing them so clearly.

I want to say a little more before sitting down. On the statutory instrument concerning appeals, as I understand it the Law Society’s concerns were around the point that appeals from ABS firms, which were regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority, would go to the First-tier Chamber, whereas appeals and decisions from other law firms would go to the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal, the SDT. Now the SRA has agreed to use the SDT for appeals to do with alternative business structure firms. That was apparently agreed in March this year, but there is some surprise that no statutory instrument has yet appeared to put that decision into effect. Finally—as I am sure the Minister will be relived to hear—when will that statutory instrument be brought forward, and why has there been a delay? I congratulate the Minister on bringing the orders forward.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I have said before that, as a non-lawyer there is nothing more daunting than facing the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who, as he confessed, was the Minister responsible when the key legislation was—

[Lord Bach]

I am sorry to interrupt. The noble Lord was not listening with his usual attention, or else I was particularly inarticulate. I served on the Joint Committee under the noble Lord’s chairmanship as a Back-Bencher, and was indeed a Back-Bencher when the legislation went through, so I cannot be held to blame or praise for the legislation itself.

[Lord McNally]

I now fully understand. I will have to look at the noble Lord’s CV: I had always assumed that he had ministerial responsibility going back well over a decade.

[Lord Bach]

I am delighted that the noble Lord assumed that, but he was wrong. There was a gap in the middle.

[Lord McNally]

In any case, both the noble Lord, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, fill me with fear on this.

I am sorry about presenting these matters as separate orders; I was only following orders, as they say. I am pleased that the contributions have been, in the main, supportive and that it is agreed that the initial legislation and what we are trying to do now take us forward into a new era of legal service provision. In that respect, I was particularly reassured by the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, from her position as spokesperson or defender of consumers in these areas, found them useful.

My heart, too, sank when I saw that, despite all the consultation and so on, we had ended up with two lines of solutions, whereas one would be much more preferable. We will continue to use our good offices to encourage regulation and lines of appeal in this area to be as simple and clear as possible. I share with the Committee that, the other day, I had the great honour of meeting the Vice-Minister of Justice for the People’s Republic of China. In a matter of general discussion, he asked me quite out of the blue if I could explain to him the regulatory system for our barristers and solicitors. The brief mentioned about nine different organisations, with any multiple of them having lines of appeal. I ended up by assuring the Vice-Minister of the absolute integrity and independence of the various branches of our legal profession and that I would write to him.

[Lord Bach]

That was the question I was going to ask. I thought the noble Lord would say that he would write to him.

[Lord McNally]

Yes, in Mandarin and with a suitable chart. We hope that the orders go some way along the line of trying to get some order into these things.

On the matter of the missing orders, they are being drafted. We are undertaking further consultation. At this stage, the draft standing order relating to the society is not finalised. Until it is, it cannot be approved to be laid before Parliament. As the order is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, it will require parliamentary debate and approval before the order can be made. We will be back, folks.

Quickly, on the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, that again is under review. The point that was made is being taken on board. The Law Society Council will have arrangements in place to consider fitness of owners. They are set out in its licensing rules. The Law Society Council has asked for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act to be extended. An order has been laid before the House adding the head of legal practices and head of financial administration to be covered by the law. Again, I note what has been said here. These are serious matters and areas that need to be tidied up as we go through the process of bringing the ABSs on board and getting the right lines of appeal.

I am just seeing if there is anything else that I have either not understood or not covered. A draft order will be debated in the House next week. We are aware of the additional requirements sought for owners and managers. The matter is being discussed at the moment so, again, watch this space. I thank the contributors to the debate. I hope that this has been enough clarification. If I have missed things I will write to noble Lords.

My noble friend Lord Thomas raised the point about what the solicitors did not like. The Law Society did not sign up because of a principal concern that changes were needed to the First-tier Tribunal general regulatory chamber rules to allow a general power to award costs. The LSB has asked the tribunal procedures committee to consider changes to its costs rules but, on 1 March 2011, the committee came to the preliminary view that the rules in their current form were adequate to determine whether one party or another should pay costs. The Law Society has not consented to this order. As was said, it has made provision in its proposed licensing rules for the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal to be the appellate body for its licensing appeals.

Co-operation in Public Protection Arrangements (UK Border Agency) Order 2011

Lord Bach Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is clearly sensible that the agency should be brought within the scope of the public protection arrangements. I have nothing to add to that. The most important thing is that it should legalise the passing of information between the various agencies that are concerned with these matters.

[Lord Bach]

I agree absolutely with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. I have nothing to say except that we support the order and I thank the noble Lord for moving it.

Justice: Reform of Punishment, Rehabilitation, Sentencing and Legal Aid

Lord Bach Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for advance sight of it.

Our justice policy should, of course, be about protecting the public, punishing and reforming offenders, being on the side of the victim and bringing crime down. That underpinned our record in government and led to a 43 per cent fall in crime, reductions in reoffending and serious improvements in youth offending rates. Some crisis. However, this Government demonstrate that that is not what matters in their approach to crime and justice; what matters is cutting costs, despite the impact that could have, and is likely to have, on our communities.

We think the Government are right to have seen sense and taken heed of opposition to cost-driven proposals to reduce sentences by 50 per cent on early guilty pleas. A powerful coalition of the judiciary, justice groups, the Sentencing Council and victims groups rightly questioned the motivation and effectiveness of that policy. However, let us be clear, the policy had been agreed by Cabinet and it is no good No. 10 now distancing itself from it.

Perhaps the Minister can answer the following questions. First, can he outline why the Prime Minister ditched this proposal when the Government were so wedded to it a matter of weeks ago? Secondly, why was a decision taken to change the name of the Bill from the “Legal Aid and Sentencing Bill”, as it was called until late last night, to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill? What do the Government hope to achieve by tinkering with the words?

We know from the impact assessment provided with the Green Paper that removing the option of remanding offenders in custody for certain cases would save £30 million and 1,300 prison places. Does this proposal still remain and in what form?

On IPPs, how will the Government ensure the safety of our communities when considering which offenders ought to be released? Once again, the impact assessment tells us that the financial savings in doing this will be sizeable. Obviously the focus is on saving money. Today we learn that the noble Lord is to undertake an urgent review of IPPs with a view to replacing them. When there has already been over the past 13 months a Green Paper and a consultation, why is there a need for another review?

How does the noble Lord reconcile losing thousands of experienced front-line prisons and probation staff with the Government’s obvious desire to see, first, an increased number of offenders diverted into specialist drug, alcohol and mental health facilities and, secondly, more prisoners working, who will clearly need more supervision? How do those policies fit together? At this morning’s press conference, the Prime Minister said savings that would have been made by the 50 per cent proposals will be found elsewhere in the Ministry of Justice budget. Can I ask the Minister to explain to the House exactly where these savings will be found and when?

The proposals on legal aid that were mooted in the Green Paper have been heavily criticised across the board. There is room for legal aid cuts—we have certainly put up alternative proposals, as have the Law Society and others—but they are being criticised because of the attack on social welfare law. Does the Minister agree that these proposals, if implemented in legislation, will decimate social welfare law, making it impossible for the most vulnerable to get legal help for legal problems, including those relating to welfare benefits, debt, employment and all but the most extreme of housing cases? Does he agree that evidence shows that exactly this type of legal help that is now given through legal aid, when given early, can and does often solve the problems involved and thus save the state money when things otherwise descend downhill? Does he agree with NACAB, which says that a pound spent on welfare benefits advice saves £8.80 in future spending; that every pound spent on housing advice saves £2.34; and that every bit of debt advice saves £2.98? How can this policy possibly save public money?

More importantly than even the financial side, how does the noble Lord argue that the removal of access to justice—because that is what it is—from some of our most vulnerable fellow citizens is justified? How will these people be able to receive legal advice, who will it come from and how will their legal problems be resolved? They are effectively excluded from access to justice by deliberate government action. Why is that? The amount of money saved overall will be less than nothing. Many CABs, law centres and high street practices, which do a fantastic job—for comparatively little reward compared to other fields of law—looking after the poor and marginalised will have to close. Lord Bingham wrote in his book The Rule of Law last year that the,

“denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford to pay is one enemy of the rule of law”.

Yet this is exactly what the Government intend to do.

This House has always seen one of its roles as to look after the vulnerable and marginalised in our society. When this Bill comes from another place, I am sure this House will continue to do its duty as far as that is concerned. These proposals are not only financially illiterate but—and I choose my words carefully—morally outrageous. I wonder how the noble Lord, with his great tradition as a liberal and a man who is a great supporter of social justice, can give his support to these proposals.

Crime: Rape

Lord Bach Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Bach]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on sentencing for the offence of rape.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the Government believe that rape is a very serious offence, with dreadful consequences for the victim. The seriousness with which the offence is viewed by the Government, Parliament, the courts and society at large is reflected by the fact that the maximum penalty is a life sentence and that the average determinate custodial sentence imposed is eight years.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. However, does he agree that the careless and damaging remarks made last week by his right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor have undermined the confidence that victims have in the criminal justice system? The views expressed seemed hopelessly out of touch and out of date, and have offended many people, including victims of sexual violence. Will the Minister confirm that there will be no downgrading in the priority given to prosecuting those who have committed offences of sexual violence; and that the Government will not reduce the number of specialist rape prosecutors —now around 840 in number—employed by the Crown Prosecution Service over the comprehensive spending review period?

[Lord McNally]

I do not know who is damaging confidence most, if damage has been done. It certainly was not anything that my right honourable friend said. Anybody who analysed what he said would accept that. I was caught by a paragraph in the Stern review, which said:

“We need to look at rape victims as people who have been harmed, whom society has a positive responsibility to help and to protect, aside from the operations of criminal law. Whether the rape is reported or not, whether the case goes forward or not, whether there is a conviction or not, victims still have a right to services that will help them to recover and rebuild their lives”.

That is the policy of Her Majesty’s Government and we will stick to it.