Discrimination in Football

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Young of Norwood Green

Thursday 11th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I mentioned some statistics about diversity and I completely agree with the noble Baroness. I take her point. It will obviously take a bit longer than some of the other immediate things that we were talking about, but I do not disagree. I particularly agree about leadership from the football authorities. One thing that we are looking at is how leading players can be involved in taking leadership positions. In many cases they have a hero status and can be very useful. They can tell stories from their own experience and several players have already shown great courage in doing that. I take the noble Baroness’s remarks to heart and will take them back to the department to the Sports Minister.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I too welcome the report and pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Ouseley. I want to refer to the part about the problem of the rise in racist incidents at grass-roots level. A couple of paragraphs further down, the Statement refers to bringing together various administrators and campaign bodies on 25 February, but I did not see a reference to schools and colleges. As my noble friend Lord Griffiths said, changing culture is a difficult task. Prevention is better than cure, so starting at an early age is fundamentally important. Involving schools and colleges and also the Department for Education should be a key part of the Government’s strategy.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree. Certainly, as far as the Department for Education is concerned, relationships education, which is currently in the news and about which there will be a debate in this House, includes things such as treating other people with respect and accepting diversity. So to that extent, this will already be included in the curriculum. But I agree that it is important to start young. It is another area where players themselves can get involved because they can create a tremendous impression on young people. I think we are pushing at an open door. The DfE and other government departments such as the Home Office and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government fund the charity Show Racism the Red Card, which goes around schools promoting the sort of message that the noble Lord would like to hear.

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Young of Norwood Green

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the fact that this is a wide-ranging Bill is not surprising when you consider how the digital economy is transforming the world before us, and it has certainly been a wide-ranging debate. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today, particularly those who have come to see me in the past week to discuss the legislation. Before the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asks me, as he usually does, I will of course write to those whom I fail to answer this evening, and there will be many of them, because I think there have been hundreds of questions.

Starting with the universal service obligation, broadband and connectivity, I think that there is clearly a strong consensus in the House that we need faster broadband and better mobile phone signals, especially in the less well-served rural parts of the country. The Government agree, and we have been working to achieve it. Only 8% of premises in the country have access to broadband at speeds of less than 24 megabits per second, and that number is likely to halve by the end of the year. The broadband USO provided by the Bill will be a safety net, should anyone need it, by 2020. I was grateful for the support of my noble friends Lord Baker and Lord Holmes and the noble Lords, Lord Gordon, Lord Whitty and Lord Young, for the broadband USO.

Many Peers, including the noble Lord, Lord Fox, my noble friend Lord Holmes, the noble Lords, Lord Mitchell and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, queried whether a 10 megabits per second USO is sufficiently ambitious. It will be Ofcom that recommends the speed and provides the technical advice on upload, download, latency, and so on. The Government believe that 10 megabits per second should be the minimum speed but have ambition for more—so we agree there—as we complete the superfast delivery programme.

The Bill provides powers to review and to increase the speed. In fact, 10 megabits per second is adequate for most households and allows high-definition video streaming as well as simultaneous video calling and web browsing, according to the Ofcom Connected Nations report and the digital communications review in 2016. We have ambitions for the future, but we think that it is adequate for the safety net—and, speaking personally, I can tell you that, if you had 1.5 or 2 megabits per second broadband and you were given 10 megabits, you would think that it was a tremendous difference.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

But that is if you are given a true 10 megabits per second, is it not? The complaint so often is that you are told that that is what the speed is going to be, but they fail to deliver—so that is the important thing. It is delivery that counts.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, I quite agree—that is why I mentioned that Ofcom will provide technical details and advise on latency, upload, download and average speeds. The consultation paper is, I think, coming out at any minute.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Janke and Lady Byford, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked whether there should be a social tariff in addition to the USO. Ofcom is reporting on possible approaches for a USO; the report will include consideration of measures to take account of those for whom affordability is an issue.

The Electronic Communications Code and infrastructure and apparatus and things like that were mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Foster, Lord Aberdare, Lord Gordon and Lord Clement-Jones. In the interests of time, I am going to duck the interesting discussions of when a water tower is a communications mast and when it is apparatus. We will deal with those things a lot in Committee.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, was concerned about the new land valuation model in the ECC. We have consulted widely on this and employed experts to allow government to strike the right balance between landowner rights and the need for better digital communications. We expect the parties to negotiate a fair outcome. The code valuation applies only when parties cannot agree terms.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked whether there should be a public record for when rights are granted over land under the ECC. The Law Commission considered this as part of its review of the code; the Government consulted on the issues subsequently and concluded that code operators should not be required to register their rights. This maintains the position under the existing code, but prospective buyers will be able to ascertain what code rights might apply to land by inspecting the land and making appropriate inquiries before the contract.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Aberdare, Lord Clement-Jones, and others, talked about the change in the appeals mechanism for Ofcom. I have spent many happy hours in your Lordships’ House talking about the extent of judicial review and its applicability. We think that there is a wide consensus that reform is needed, and the Government believe that judicial review is the right remedy. Direct comparisons to other regulated sectors are helpful but, for example, where one sector has a full “on the merits” appeal, there is another example showing the opposite. This is because every regulatory regime is quite different from the next. Communications is currently the most litigated sector, and it is holding up reforms and investment and delaying consumer benefits. That is why we are forced to act—but I accept that we will probably spend some time on this issue in Committee.

Another thing that we might talk about, which was mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Mitchell and Lord Clement-Jones, was the position of Openreach. A number of noble Lords suggested that the way in which to reach a competitive and effective market in telecommunications is through the structural separation of Openreach from BT Group. Ofcom is the independent regulator for the sector and there is a process available for it to pursue structural separation, should it consider that necessary. We have made it clear that Ofcom should take whatever action it considers necessary and that structural separation remains an option.

Several noble Lords mentioned digital exclusion and digital skills. The Bill provides for free training for adults in basic digital skills, which was mentioned by many noble Lords. We have set up the Council for Digital Inclusion, which brings together leaders from business, charities and government to come up with innovative ways to help get everyone online. Some people cannot use online services independently. The Government Digital Service works with services to ensure that those people get the support that they need. More than £9.5 million has been spent by the DfE and the NHS since October 2014 to support almost 750,000 people to gain basic digital skills. The DfE will be investing a further £1.5 million in the remainder of this year to support 100,000 more.

My noble friend Lord Baker made an interesting speech, echoed to a certain extent by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, about the digital revolution, skills and employment. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, mentioned this as well. We are establishing 15 routes to a technical education post-16, including engineering and manufacturing, digital health and construction. Students will be able to learn through an employment-based route—apprenticeships—or a college-based one that will ensure they can progress into employment or further study. For pre-16s, we will continue to equip schools to embed a knowledge-based curriculum as the cornerstone of an excellent academically rigorous education. We will continue to embed reforms to assessment and qualifications, including more robust and rigorous GCSEs, and the ambition that at least 90% of pupils in mainstream education enter GCSEs in maths and science. In 2016, 62,100 pupils entered for a computer science qualification, up from 33,500 in 2015.

Many noble Lords—the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe, Lady Kidron and Lady Benjamin, the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson, Lord Storey, Lord Gordon, Lord Whitty and Lord Morrow, the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and there may have been others—talked about and approved of the age-verification regime, at least to a certain extent. The Bill delivers on the manifesto commitment but there is always more to do and we think that is possible. I look forward to debating this in Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked what oversight there will be of the BBFC to ensure that these powers are used responsibly. We are pleased that we are working with the BBFC; it has a strong track record as an independent regulator. We recognise that age verification brings challenges and we must provide the regulator with the framework to succeed. We are already working closely with it to implement this ambitious policy and it is not the case that the Government’s role will then be finalised. The Bill provides for the designation of funding of the regulator by the Secretary of State, who must be satisfied, for instance, that arrangements for appeals are being maintained. In the case of blocking, the regulator must inform the Secretary of State whenever it intends to notify an ISP.

The right reverend Prelate, the noble Baronesses, Lady Kidron and Lady Benjamin, and the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, asked a valid question about social media and Twitter. The Government believe that services, including Twitter, can be classified by regulators as ancillary service providers where they are enabling or facilitating the making available of pornographic or prohibited material. This means that they could be notified of commercial pornographers to whom they provide a service but this will not apply to material provided on a non-commercial basis.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked some very detailed questions about net neutrality and family filters which I am not going to answer today. First, I will read carefully what she said and will certainly write to her. We believe that family filters that can be turned off are permitted under EU regulation. To support providers, and for the avoidance of doubt, we will amend the Bill to confirm that providers may offer such filters. This will ensure that the current successful self-regulatory approach to family filters can continue.

ISPs are best placed to know what their customers want and we do not intend to lay down mandatory rules for family-filter provision. The current approach works well, engaging parents to think about online safety, but applying filters where parents do not engage. As far as public wi-fi is concerned, we believe that filters on many types of public wi-fi are likely to be compliant with EU regulation. Coffee shops, hotels and restaurants, for example, where the end-user is the proprietor, can turn filters on and off. I am afraid that noble Lords may not be surprised to hear that we do not think it is right to share legal advice on these matters.

There will be a lot of discussion on prohibited material in Committee. It is a complicated area. Free speech is vital but we must protect children from harm online as well as offline. We must do more to ensure that children cannot easily access sexual content which will distress them or harm their development, as has been mentioned. We do not allow children to buy pornographic material offline, and this material would not be classified for hard-copy distribution. The BBFC has a well-understood harm test and would not classify material that, for example, depicts non-consensual violent abuse against women, and it may not classify material which is in breach of the Obscene Publications Act, as clarified in guidance by the CPS. Prohibited material has always been within the regulatory framework of this Bill. We consider that having a lesser regime for prohibited material than lawful material would be unsustainable and undermine the age-verification regime. As I say, I am sure we will come back to this in Committee.

An important point was made with regard to sexual content and the need to look at sex education. We have taken steps to raise awareness of the risk to young people of exposure to harmful content online. E-safety is now covered at all key stages in the new computing curriculum, which was taught for the first time in September 2014. The Government agree that we need to look again at the case for further action on personal, social, health and economic education and sex education provision as a matter of priority, with particular consideration being given to improving quality and accessibility. We are carefully considering the request to update existing sex and relationship guidance.

Many have asked for the intellectual property reforms in the Bill for many years. We need to ensure that valuable assets are protected. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe has been working hard to ensure that that is the case. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Grade, the noble Lords, Lord Storey and Lord Macdonald, and my noble friend Lady Wilcox, who supported the Section 73 appeal. My noble friend Lady Wilcox asked what else we are doing to protect IP rights online. The Government’s strategy for IP enforcement published earlier this year, Protecting Creativity, Supporting Innovation: IP Enforcement 2020, outlines the breadth of activity the Government are taking to tackle IP infringement of all types online.

As regards the remuneration issue from the abolition of Section 73, the Government are not seeking to set any retransmission fee arrangements. These will be negotiated in the context of the existing “must offer/must carry” regulatory framework. This will mean there is likely to be some, albeit limited, value extracted in any future negotiations between public service broadcasters and Virgin Media. Coming to the—

Employment Tribunals

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Young of Norwood Green

Thursday 12th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the point of early conciliation is to encourage claimants not to go to an employment tribunal. Ninety per cent of employees agree with the system and want to work with the conciliation service. Under the new arrangements, 60.5% of cases that went to early conciliation did not proceed to an employment tribunal, and 16.3% of cases were settled. For those who want to go to an employment tribunal, there is a fee remission system based on savings. Broadly, people whose monthly income is below a certain level do not have to pay. Anyone who receives means-tested benefits does not have to pay or gets a reduced fee.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, the costs involved in going to an employment tribunal are still a deterrent, even taking into account what the Minister said. I ask him to reflect on the fact that, even when you have won your claim at an employment tribunal, the matter does not end there; it depends on the employer paying the award. In a situation where an employer does not pay—I have referred to this previously, including last night—there is a penalty and they are fined, but still no money goes to the successful claimant. Will the Government consider dealing with the costs to a claimant in having to go through the courts to get their award?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I take the noble Lord’s point. If people are ordered to pay awards, they should pay them. We are going to implement a review—or the next Government are—and that is something that can be considered at that time.

Industrial Training Levy (Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Young of Norwood Green

Thursday 26th February 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, in principle I, too, welcome the changes in the levy for the CITB and the ECITB. I have a number of questions to put to the Minister, whom I thank for the introduction.

I believe that there is a triennial review taking place. One should know the fate of that, because it is important. We need to be sure that the way in which the levy is organised does not mean that it is at odds with the way in which the CITB is developing.

We have two main concerns about the change in the third year of the levy period. The impact assessment discusses this. I hope the Minister will elaborate a bit further on any mitigating steps to be put in place. The first concern is that the nature of the construction sector is very much that of a subcontracting model. In many respects, prime companies often squeeze the margins of their subcontractors. How will that be addressed? The impact assessment states that a potential effect is the passing on of the costs of the levy from main contractors to subcontractors. That is a common practice outside the existing system and it reduces the legitimacy for employers if they do not pay levies on payments to their own subcontractors. I would welcome the Minister addressing that.

We are particularly concerned about the potential with the change in the third year for the greater use of umbrella companies and labour agencies. That is a real problem for the construction sector. Trade unions such as the Union of Construction Allied Trades & Technicians and others have rightly highlighted the fact that it undermines the efficiency, operation and fairness of the construction sector. This measure could help to increase that usage. What will the Minister do to mitigate that?

My noble friend Lady Donaghy anticipated me—I, too, will refer to the fact that there is a savage irony that despite the levy we still have a shortage in basic but essential skills such as bricklaying. We ought to be looking at how well this scheme does in attracting young people into the industry—especially young women—pointing out that these are good skills and the pay can be good in the right circumstances. We have some concerns about what the industry is doing to improve on that.

In relation to the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board, we know that there is a large demand for new engineering jobs. We have a significant skills shortage in this sector. EngineeringUK states in its latest report:

“Filling the demand for new engineering jobs will generate an additional £27 billion per year for the UK economy from 2022 … To meet projected employer demand the number of engineering apprentices and graduates entering the industry will need to double … Engineering companies will need 182,000 people per year with engineering skills in the decade to 2022 but there is a current annual shortfall of 55,000 skilled workers”.

Do we believe that with the levy as it is currently structured the industry is going to meet that challenge? It is a big challenge and it is a very important one. Is the levy being used innovatively; for example, to go into schools to encourage young people, especially girls, to study things such as GCSE physics? The levy might often be used for people who are entering the industry at the age of 18, 19 or 20 but is it being used more innovatively to ensure that we encourage people to go into these sectors at an early enough age?

Those are the general questions that we have. We support the principle of the levy and the way it is being restructured but we have concerns about the construction industry and the engineering construction industry being able to meet the challenge of skills demand in these important sectors.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their supportive comments—albeit not exclusively supportive, as they have a number of concerns that in many ways we all share. I agree with the noble Baroness that this is not necessarily a party-political point. Skills and training are very important in all industries, but particularly these industries, which are largely project-based and have subcontracted workforces, and it is very easy for firms not to have the strong incentive to train if their workforces are subcontracted. Skills are also essential to increasing the productivity of this country, which is a problem.

I will move to some of the specific points made by noble Lords; I now have them in the wrong order. The noble Baroness mentioned the deficiencies in skill levels. I agree that there are challenges in increasing the capacity of the workforce, particularly to meet the demand for homebuilding and infrastructure projects. However, as part of the Government’s industrial strategy, we are working in partnership with the construction sector to address the skills shortages and help people gain the skills required. We and the CITB recognise the challenges to increasing the capacity of the workforce. The important thing about doing it through the CITB is that it is industry-led. The Government have a role to play, but the CITB is run by the industry and has the pretty weighty and strong support of the industry to do those things; for example, health and safety is an important area that the CITB can look at and manage to increase.

The noble Lord, Lord Young, mentioned the triennial review, which is currently under consideration by the Government. I recognise that there is some frustration about the time it has taken—I think it is about 19 months since it was first announced in July 2013. It is important that we give consideration to that, and the review has consulted with employers and stakeholders. The findings of the review will be published in due course, but I will be quite honest with the noble Lord: I do not think that will be before the election.

The noble Lord made a point about the shortage of skills at less than the most advanced level; for example, bricks and bricklayers, which, as I mentioned, are important in the housebuilding industry. Of course, those skills fluctuate more sharply in construction than in other industries. It is a priority for the new board and the CITB Council to look at the skills demands and react accordingly. The new board of eight members, five of whom are women—which is substantially smaller than the previous board of, I think, 20 members—is designed to have a more focused approach to delivery than the previous one. However, it is accountable to the council, which has a larger number of employer representatives on board.

On the point about umbrella organisations and labour agencies in construction—and if this does not answer the noble Lord’s question, I will be happy to write to him—subcontracting is a feature of these industries, and a main reason for having a levy. The changes we are making to the Construction Industry Training Board levy in 2017 will mean that the levy covers labour agencies. If companies are wholly or mainly engaged in the activities of the industries, they are then liable to the levy, and this applies to all companies. We will be introducing them in 2017 to give companies time to prepare, and of course the CITB is providing guidance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I welcome some of the points that the noble Lord has made. However, my experience from participating in the Lords outreach programme and talking to 15, 16 and 17 year-olds is that schools are still focused on pushing everyone into the academic stream. That is the route. When you ask young people what they know about apprenticeships, you are lucky if even one of them puts their hand up. Schools that I have been to have admitted that they have been deficient. Under the legislation, schools are supposed to give comprehensive careers guidance, which embraces vocational aspects as well as academic ones. In many cases, they are not meeting that requirement. Again, I welcome what the CITB is doing but it needs to up its game on that. There really should not be a school in the country that does not experience the CITB’s roadshow. It ought to have a comprehensive programme.

My final point is one that I have made on many occasions but which I think is still relevant. We should reflect on what we managed to do in two key projects, the Olympic Games and Crossrail. For those contracts, we insisted that employers had to show what they were doing on training and the number of apprentices they would be prepared to take on. In a way, I think that Crossrail is the best example. Although the Olympics were quite good in that they generated around 300 apprenticeships, Crossrail has made sure that nearly all of the subcontractors in the supply chain also employ apprentices over a wide range of different skills, whether in administration, accountancy or the more normal engineering skills. It would be very welcome if the Minister would respond to those points.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I completely agree that apprenticeships are key. They are, in fact, at the heart of the CITB’s business. It acts as a managing agency for the delivery of a large proportion of apprenticeships in construction. Currently, there are about 18,000 young people on CITB-supported apprenticeship programmes. As noble Lords will know, it has been a feature of the Government’s programme to concentrate on apprenticeships, and not just in construction. The CITB also develops specialist apprenticeship programmes through the National Construction College.

As far as engineering construction is concerned, the apprenticeship programme recruits young people to the industry and supports employers and accredited training providers to provide training to young people. It supports about 3,000 apprentices every year. There are 60 engineering apprentices on site in the construction industry per thousand employees, compared to the average in England of 20 per thousand. Basically, I agree with the noble Lord. The CITB is focusing on that and will continue to do so.

The proposals before the Committee relate to the construction and the engineering construction industries. It continues to be the collective view of employers in each of these industries that training should be funded through a statutory levy system in order to secure a sufficient pool of skilled labour. In summary, these levies are particularly appropriate for an industry that involves a lot of project work with subcontracted labour. They have the support of the industry and do not cost the taxpayer a penny. I commend these orders to the Committee.

Low Pay: Resolution Foundation Report

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Young of Norwood Green

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The right reverend Prelate is right to bring this subject up. The minimum wage is a minimum as a catch-all; the Government support people and businesses paying above that, if they can pay the living wage, but only when it is affordable and not at the expense of jobs. In BIS, the department I represent, we have recently increased the pay of the lowest-paid workers in the department so that everyone receives the living wage. We support that as long as it is not at the expense of jobs.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s last point—that BIS is paying everybody in the department the living wage—but it would be even more welcome if he could give us a guarantee, as the Government say they support the living wage, that every government department should pay its employees the living wage. Also, should there not be a condition that people who have the advantage of gaining a public sector contract should be paid the living wage as well?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is being a bit mischievous in trying to get me to give guarantees on behalf of every government department. I agree with him that it is a recognisable and suitable aspiration and we would like to do that.