Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Mitchell

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I will find out what was said. We should deal with what the GDPR calls special categories of data very sensitively. We should take data on health, sexual orientation, ethnicity and things like that very seriously. That is what the GDPR does and we will continue to do it under the Bill.

Finally, I return to the Commons amendments. I am afraid we still cannot support Amendments 53A and 53B as, at the moment, we believe that they are fundamentally the wrong solution. However, I hope that the productive discussions, to which the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, referred, along with what I have said today, have convinced the noble Lord that our vision is aligned and that he finds sufficient reassurance in these words, and the written assurances that he has had from my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy, to be able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Mitchell]

I thank the noble Lord for his very helpful comments. I also thank my noble friend Lord Freyberg, who has been with me all the way on this and given me huge support, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for her comments. On the Front Benches, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has always been a supporter and, at this particular point, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has guided me through the intricacies of ping-pong, which I was not aware of.

I have heard what the Minister has said, and have received a letter from the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy. It is the end of the football season. We are now in extra time; we are still at a draw and could be facing penalty shoot-outs, but I am going to decline that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Mitchell

Report: 3rd sitting Hansard: House of Lords
Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for taking the time to come and see me to explain these amendments. We had an interesting conversation and I learned a lot—although clearly I did not convince him that they should not be put forward. I am grateful also to the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Stevenson, who said, I think, that there may be more work to do on this—I agree—and that possibly this is not the right time to discuss these issues because they are broader than the amendment. Notwithstanding that, I completely understand the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, has raised, and they are certainly worth thinking about.

These amendments seek to ensure that public authorities—for example, the NHS—are, with the help of the Information Commissioner, fully cognisant of the value of the data that they hold when entering into appropriate data-sharing agreements with third parties. Amendment 107B would also require the Information Commissioner to keep a register of this data of “national significance”. I can see the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell. It would seem right that when public authorities are sharing data with third parties, those agreements are entered into with a full understanding of the value of that data. We all agree that we do not want the public sector disadvantaged, but I am not sure that the public sector is being disadvantaged. Before any amendment could be agreed, we would need to establish that there really was a problem.

Opening up public data improves transparency, builds trust and fosters innovation. Making data easily available means that it will be easier for people to make decisions and suggestions about government policies based on detailed information. There are many examples of public transport and mapping apps that make people’s lives easier that are powered by open data. The innovation that this fosters builds world-beating technologies and skills that form the cornerstone of the tech sector in the UK. While protecting the value in our data is important, it cannot be done with a blunt tool, as we need equally to continue our efforts to open up and make best use of government-held data.

In respect of health data, efforts are afoot to find this balance. For example, Sir John Bell proposed in the Life Sciences: Industrial Strategy, published in August last year, that a working group be established to explore a new health technology assessment and commercial framework that would capture the value in algorithms generated using NHS data. This type of body would be more suitable to explore these questions than a code of practice issued by the Information Commissioner, as the noble Lord proposes.

I agree that it is absolutely right that public sector bodies should be aware of the value of the data that they hold. However, value can be extracted in many ways, not solely through monetary means. For example, sharing health data with companies who analyse that data may lead to a deeper understanding of diseases and potentially even to new cures—that is true value. The Information Commissioner could not advise on this.

That sharing, of course, raises ethical issues as well as financial ones and we will debate later the future role and status of the new centre for data ethics and innovation, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned. This body is under development and I am sure that this House would want to contribute to its development, not least the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and his Select Committee on Artificial Intelligence.

For those reasons, I am not sure that a code is the right answer. Having heard some of the factors that need to be considered, I hope the noble Lord will not press his amendment.

Perhaps I may offer some further reassurance. If in the future it emerged that a code was the right solution, the Bill allows, at Clause 124, for the Secretary of State to require the Information Commissioner to prepare appropriate codes. If it proves better that the Government should provide guidance, the Secretary of State could offer his own code.

There are technical questions about the wording of the noble Lord’s amendment. I will not go into them at the moment because the issues of principle are more important. However, for the reasons I have given that the code may not be the correct thing at the moment, I invite him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Mitchell]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate. I also thank the Minister for agreeing to see me prior to the Recess and for his comments today. However, this is an issue of precision—and we need precision on the statute book. All that has been suggested to me, which is that it can be found elsewhere or will be looked at in the future, does not give the definitive answer we require. That is why I would like to test the opinion of the House.