Arrangement of Business
Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, before we go any further I thought that it would be helpful if I were to make another short business statement, as I promised this morning.
As I made clear in my earlier statement, because there is still no agreement between the two Houses on the Fire Safety Bill and the National Security and Investment Bill we will continue sitting tonight to consider further Commons messages. Our consideration of the Fire Safety Bill will be at a convenient point after 8 pm, and our consideration of the National Security and Investment Bill will not begin before 9 pm, with the start time confirmed via the annunciator.
The House of Commons has been clear about where it stands on the three Bills that are left before us. This House has now asked the Commons to think again more than once on each of the Bills, and has each time been provided with reasons why this House’s amendments cannot be accepted. It is time to accept the settled view of the elected House. Noble Lords have made their views clear, and the elected House has made its position equally clear. It would not be right for it to appear that this House does not accept the primacy of the House of Commons.
Once again, I encourage noble Lords with an interest in the National Security and Investment Bill to keep a close eye on the annunciator.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Chief Whip for his statement, which was helpful to the House. I will just add that he sounded a bit waspish at times. I am sure that he did not mean to. Parliament and legislation benefit from the kind of dialogue and debate that we have had around this legislation, and I hope that the Government found that helpful. I do not think that this House has ever not accepted the primacy of the Commons. We do, however, sometimes suggest that perhaps we have better ideas and the Commons might not always get it right first time. We play our part in legislation, therefore, in the normal way, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for the time he has given us this evening.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, as one who believes very strongly in both Houses and has now done nearly 51 years in Westminster, I strongly support my noble friend’s position, much as I admire what the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition said. It is right that we should ask the Commons to think again, and again—and sometimes again. There comes a point, however, and the eve of Prorogation certainly is one, when we have to decide whether we wish the Bills to go forward or not. I have many criticisms of all of them, but at the end of the day the primacy of the House of Commons should prevail, and I very much hope that there will not be any more Divisions this evening.
Business of the House
Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, I am a state of some confusion. I thought we were considering the Business of the House Motion relating to the consideration of Commons amendments in the hybrid House. Has that happened already? In that case I am a day late to make comments I would have made to the noble Lord. I have no comments on this Motion.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Chief Whip for raising this. I am surprised; I thought the Leader was in the House today, and I hoped she could come to the House to raise this. I have one question. It is absolutely right that we should have the discussion first. These are made affirmative orders and the longer we wait to debate them, the more ridiculous it becomes.
I asked this through the usual channels, and I would be grateful if the noble Lord would respond. Once we get the reports from the committees, will there be an option for the House to debate them if we think it is appropriate? I would welcome it if he could comment on that because I think that would be helpful to your Lordships’ House. Other than that, I have no comment and we will support the Motion before us today.
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, I am always delighted to answer questions from the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, either in or out of the Chamber; I have done it for many hours in the past and, no doubt, I will continue to do so again in future.
As far as the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, are concerned, first, the Leader of the House is off to a Cabinet committee, which is why I am here on her behalf. I am happy to say that we will look carefully at what both committees have to say when they report. The structuring of the timetable for the business of the House is of course a matter for the usual channels. We will discuss that with the usual channels when those reports come out, so I do not rule out further debate or rule it in. We will take it as it comes and we will discuss this with the usual channels, as indeed we did on this Motion, and I am grateful to the usual channels for their usual constructive approach. It is worth mentioning that we have made a lot of procedural changes in a very short space of time and it has been done on a consensual basis so far.
Business of the House
Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response, which I think is as full a one as he is able to give at the moment. Can I press him slightly on this, as these will be political as well as medical decisions? There has been concern following the newspaper articles, because we have seen the unlawful prorogation of Parliament in the past. Can he commit to keeping the usual channels and the House updated on any plans and discussions that take place? I think we are largely reassured by his commitment that Parliament should do everything it can to maintain its role, both for the message that sends and for its important role in holding the Government to account.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I certainly can confirm that we will keep the usual channels and the House updated. Noble Lords will appreciate that in the last two days there has been a Statement, with extra time made available for questions, and yesterday there was an all-Peers briefing from the Secretary of State and the Chief Medical Officer, so up to now we have made efforts to keep the House informed. I understand the point about democracy. As far as I understood it from the Chief Medical Officer yesterday, there are cycles in this virus and we will take account of them in our response. I absolutely take the point that democracy should not be avoided because of this virus.