Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Ashcombe and Lord Moynihan of Chelsea

Report stage
Monday 14th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

My Lords, I support this very important amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Acton, and endorse everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, said. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that they covered so much of the ground that needs to be covered that I will not have to speak for too long.

To tease out some of the truly important aspects of what the noble Lord and noble Baroness said, key to this clause is the word “harassment” and the phrase

“to take all reasonable steps”.

Words can have various meanings and people can interpret them differently. For example, “I banter” but “He harasses”; “He, she or it is a social predator and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law”. To make a truism, that is what we are doing here: making laws. Laws get interpreted and used to prosecute. People who see an advantage in using the law can take their employer to court, and we will have yet more things being banned, and more opportunities for lawfare, as the noble Baroness said, and to shut down our national life.

In the Economist, which is not a particularly dry magazine, as your Lordships know—it supports all sorts of liberal ideas—an article about two weeks ago said that all these people who talk about how civilisations die have got it wrong. There is one thing that is common to civilisations that die, whether it is the Song Dynasty in 1200, the Venetians at a not dissimilar time, the Romans or whoever. Why did they have a tremendously successful society that collapsed over a number of years? The Economist said that they banned things; they said, “We won’t have this. You won’t be allowed to do that. You won’t be allowed to import these things. We will put tariffs on goods imported and, above all, we will ban various types of speech”. That is what the Economist said leads to the decline of societies.

We are British; we have things like banter. For centuries, we have been able to live at ease with each other and say amusing things. I have had people say things to me that I did not particularly like, but it was banter and I went along with it—we can all go along with it. If we insist on shutting down the most harmless kinds of remarks, which courts will interpret as being justiciable within the framework of this clause, we risk going further down the path that the Economist warned against.

I plead with noble Lords, in a most kind way, to think very hard about this amendment. Please vote for it, because it is not trivial—it is very important.

[Lord Ashcombe (Con)]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Young. If these amendments are not accepted, I worry that we will see a sharp increase in cases going to employment tribunals, adding more pressure to a system that is already stretched. It is not hard to imagine how these disputes may play out. We will likely see countless cases built around the old “Yes, you did”, “No, I didn’t” argument, disagreements over who said what to whom, and in what context—not only the genuine cases mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. It is messy, time-consuming and, frankly, avoidable by agreeing to these amendments.

Much of the debate on this issue so far has rightly focused on the hospitality, retail and entertainment sectors, where these challenges are particularly acute. However, it is not only these sectors that have an issue coming to them; it goes much wider than that. By way of example, I work for a large insurance broker, Marsh Ltd. We regularly host clients from around the world at our offices in the City of London. These visitors often come from countries and cultures very different from our own. Now imagine a scenario in which an employee overhears a private conversation between two overseas clients in our lobby—perhaps just in passing—and takes offence. That could lead to a complaint and, potentially, even to legal action, despite my employer having no direct involvement. Why should any business, large or small, be held liable for that kind of situation?

We need to remain an attractive destination for global business, whether in insurance or any other sector. Welcoming international clients to the UK supports jobs, drives growth and benefits us all, but if businesses feel they are constantly at risk of ending up in tribunal—or are under the threat thereof—over things beyond their control, that creates a real disincentive to continue. For smaller companies, the stakes are even higher. The financial and reputational cost of defending against such claims could be devastating.

This is a matter of common sense and balance. These amendments do not take rights away from workers; they simply provide clarity and fairness for everyone involved.