Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 8th October 2020 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The strength of argument he has put behind these amendments and the analysis that he always brings to bear are very forceful. I am grateful to all those who have spoken in this debate, because the Minister should be clear that they have articulated not only a very clear strength of feeling but a really strong force of argument behind all these amendments and the need to maintain the devolution settlement. Of course, all these amendments have devolution at the heart. How it is handled by the UK Government requires a huge sensitivity which, as a number of noble Lords have pointed out, has not always been displayed.

I shall speak specifically to my Amendments 27 and 76, and to Amendment 30, which I have signed. I am grateful to my noble friends Lady Humphreys and Lady Suttie, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for signing Amendment 27, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who certainly indicated some support for Amendment 76.

Far-reaching decisions under the Agriculture Bill, the Trade Bill and the forthcoming Internal Market Bill put the devolution settlements and the integrity of the United Kingdom under immense strain. This has been stressed by pretty well every speaker in this debate. It has come about because the umbrella of the European Union, which set the framework, is being removed, so powers that revert to the UK have to take account of the devolution that took place while we were in the EU. Some of the powers are fully devolved and come to the devolved Administrations. Some are reserved. All this requires that the powers that come back to the regions are not overridden. Those that are reserved, are reserved. That is clear. Those that are hybrid are clearly open to debate. But what is emerging is that some that are theoretically devolved are being clawed back by the Government’s interpretation of what is reserved.

These amendments seek to test the Government’s good faith and ensure that decisions that may radically alter the terms of trade for companies, the public sector or individuals within any or all of the devolved Administrations are taken in a fair and objective way. Amendment 27 requires the Government to secure the consent of the devolved legislatures to any regulations under the Bill, and proposed new subsection (6B) suggests that if two of the three devolved legislatures do not consent, the regulation should not proceed. Effectively, this is an exploratory amendment to see to what extent the UK Government respect the settlements and wish to achieve unanimity—or at least, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, suggested, qualified majority support. I think most of us accept that it would be unreasonable to allow one devolved Administration to have a veto, but it is equally unreasonable to allow the one devolved Administration which is also the UK Government to have a veto over the three devolved Administrations, which is what the Government are proposing in the Bill.

Amendment 78 seeks to embed the role of the Joint Ministerial Committee, which has been underregarded to date. It has brokered the agreement on common frameworks, which will be subject to this House’s new committee, of which I am a member. However, it has not been the vehicle for negotiation and compromise that some had hoped for. It was envisaged by many that it would be the vehicle by which consensus could be secured. The amendment requires it to meet prior to concluding a free trade agreement and to secure the consent of the devolved Administrations.

What we are talking about in practice here is that trade agreements are treaties and treaties are reserved. Under the EU, our devolved Administrations could not, at least before we left, make common cause with subnational Parliaments and Governments across the other 27 member states. We are all familiar with the role of Belgium’s provincial Parliaments in ratifying EU treaties, and nobody in these amendments is seeking to give any of the devolved Administrations in the UK a comparable power—but once the power lies with Westminster and Whitehall, there is no Europe-wide constituency to pursue. There is no consensus to be built up across like-minded legislatures elsewhere, other than the three devolved Administrations, which have different priorities but common values and common concerns.

If the Government chose to conclude an agreement that lowered food standards, perhaps compromising Scotland’s prime beef sector, it would surely be essential that this was agreed by the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, I challenge the Minister to say under what circumstances the Government could justify that without securing such consent. If public procurement was amended to allow elements of the health service to be available for foreign investment, or for previously non-approved drugs to be allowed, or financial regulations to be lowered or changed in ways that were detrimental to Scotland’s important financial services sector, should the people of Scotland and their representatives not be consulted in a meaningful way?

I take on board the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, about whether it should be Ministers or legislatures—but, as he said, that is a matter of detail. The principle is that the voice of Scotland should be taken into account, and the same would apply on comparable issues in Wales and Northern Ireland. Of course, England needs devolution, and if the Government could find a democratic way of consulting the English regions, it could add a valuable balance. But the fact that that has not been done should not be used as an excuse to say that the devolved Administrations cannot expect to have their views given the weight that these amendments are trying to secure.

Ministerial insensitivity and indifference are, frankly, turbocharging nationalism and separatism. Next year’s elections will be hard fought between the extremes of what to me is a fantasy independence agenda and a UK Government cavalier about their claim to be unionist, and another crisis may engulf us all. I therefore urge the Government to wake up, think and engage, and at least to adopt the spirit of these amendments and show respect to the devolution settlement and an understanding of how to secure a positive way of working.

Dispute resolution will be required. The Government should accept that, ideally, we would like to see government amendments which take the spirit of the amendments that have been debated today and put it on the face of the Bill. That would ensure that any disputes are properly handled in an objective, fair and independent way, and that it is not just a matter of the assurance of a Government who, in the Bill, are saying that ultimately, in the event of disagreement within or across the devolved Administrations, the UK Government, representing the English devolved Administration and the UK, will override the wishes of the devolved Administrations. If the Government seek to do that, they will put a huge explosive under the continuing functioning of the United Kingdom.

It is important that the strength of feeling and the strength of argument that these amendments have demonstrated to the Government require a clear vision from government, and for it to be put on the face of the Bill before it is enacted.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 30th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, it may have come to your Lordships’ attention that anybody from this side of the water telling Northern Ireland politicians what to do is likely to bring about exactly the opposite result to the one they want. What is much more likely to affect Northern Ireland politicians is when their own people start to say things to them. On issues such as abortion and divorce, it is very clear that on the island of Ireland the views of the population have changed quite dramatically in a relatively short period. That is why I do not depend on opinion polls, which are notoriously unreliable in all sorts of ways, as has already been pointed out, depending on what questions you ask, in what kind of way, of what group of people at what particular stage. That is why at Second Reading I asked the Minister whether he might give consideration, at an appropriate time, to whether it would be in order under the terms of the Bill, as it has come to us from the other place, for the Secretary of State to consider recommending referendums on these two issues to be carried out with the people of Northern Ireland.

If the people of Northern Ireland said to their elected representatives, “Actually, we have a different view from the one you think we have and things have changed a lot for us in the last little while”, that would be a much more appropriate and effective way of making change, although if the people of Northern Ireland take a different view from that which might be expected, that is an important issue that must also be respected. It is not reasonable or acceptable to say that something is a devolved matter but if you do not make the decision that the people in London like we will stop it being a devolved matter. That is not a very human rights-based approach to things. But I believe that dramatic changes are taking place in the views of the people of Northern Ireland on many issues and the only way for us to become clear about that is to put it to the people in a clear fashion. I wonder whether the Minister might be able to help us on this, either tonight or in the relatively near future.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Alderdice has made a fairly constructive suggestion, which has already been replicated in the Republic, with quite dramatic results. But my question relates to the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I accept that the law is where it is and that if it is devolved, it is for the Northern Ireland Assembly, which does not exist, to change the law. However, the Supreme Court has already indicated that it questions whether or not the law in Northern Ireland is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, and has indicated that if an individual case was brought, it is likely to rule that it is not. In those circumstances, if a ruling was made that said that the law in Northern Ireland is not consistent with the convention, but there is no Assembly and no devolution, what is the mechanism by which the law can be changed to bring it into line with the European convention?

The issue on gay marriage could also move in that direction. It has not yet but given the acceptance of gay marriage more and more widely across the world, it may well become an issue where human rights law says that the right to gay marriage is a human right. If that became the case, somebody would need to change the law to bring it into line with the convention. In the absence of an Assembly—which would have to do it, whether it liked it or not, but is incapacitated because it does not exist—who would do it?