Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Bill [HL]

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

Amendment 21 agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 22. I remind noble Lords that Members other than the mover and the Minister may speak only once and that short questions of elucidation are discouraged. Anyone wishing to press this Amendment to a Division must make that clear in the debate.

Schedule 8: General police powers and prison powers relating to unmanned aircraft

Amendment 22

Moved by

High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage
Monday 30th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am very lucky to be following my noble friend Lord Carrington because he said a great deal that I would have wished to say myself. A proper, healthy, temperate forest contains about 1,000 different tree species. That is true of North America and Asia. It is not true of Europe because the last ice age crushed the European flora against the Alps and we lost a lot of species and genera at that time. The ice ages also had a significant effect on us. At the peak of the last ice age we had only two trees species: pine and birch. Looking at things on a slightly longer than human timescale, those are the only two native British trees. Everything else has come in, but we still have only 31. It is a ridiculously small number and makes our forests extremely vulnerable to pests and diseases.

Pests and diseases travel easily. Even without our help, they blow in on the wind and come in on migratory birds. We have already experienced a number of these diseases. Round where I live in Eastbourne, most of the ash trees have gone. It looks as if as a continuing flow of disease is the future that we should expect. The right response to that is biodiversity. We should be striving for biodiversity in the number of species we are using in our new planting and in the origin of the seeds that we are using.

If we are careful and import seeds under proper conditions, the risks of bringing in disease are extremely low. I have seen the way Kew makes sure that what it brings in from around the world for its Millennium Seed Bank is safe to have and to store. It is not impossible and you do not need a huge weight of seed to supply a very large number of trees.

I very much favour what my noble friend Lord Carrington advocates. We should follow the direction that the Forestry Commission advocates and seek to increase our biodiversity—to get gradually towards a forest with more natural resilience and a more natural species than our current 31. That will give us resilience against incoming disease which we currently, quite clearly, do not have.

Where we face the regrettably small proportion of ancient natural woodlands, which are a great haven for established wildlife communities, we should not think that we cannot do anything to increase that. We need to plant the right kind of trees next door. It has always been the case that species move from one bit of wood to another. As I say, there were only two species here at the peak of the ice age. Everything else has come in. All the communities that live with them have come in. All these species are used to moving. If we create the right conditions next door, then in 100 or 200 years—the sort of timescale you are looking at if you plant trees—we will have a good community of woodland species in our new plantations.

We should not think that we can do nothing to increase our proportion of high-quality woodland. We should strive to increase it next to the woodland that we are damaging with HS2. To return to one of my noble friend Lord Blencathra’s earlier amendments, we should absolutely require that HS2 achieves biodiversity net gain.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Haselhurst. No? I call the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

We now come to Amendment 7. Does the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, wish to move it?

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

In view of the fact that we are running very late, and there is an important Covid Statement coming up, I do not wish to try the patience of the House—or of the Chief Whip, for that matter, so I shall not move Amendment 7.

Spain: Travel

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 28th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

As I mentioned to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, we have in place urgent support for those people who are desperately in need. I have committed to write to her with more details and I will certainly make sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, also receives a copy of that letter.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for the Private Notice Question has now elapsed.

Covid-19: Aviation

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, yesterday, British Airways offered reassurance to future passengers, citing, first, the effectiveness of its air-filtering system, and, secondly, its intention to clean key surfaces between flights. BA also asked its customers to supply and wear their own face masks and to socially distance when checking in or collecting luggage. However, BA’s guidance was glaringly silent on social distancing during flights. What expert advice have the Government received on social distancing during flights?

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

Is the Minister there? We seem to have a problem with her connection. We are just coming up to the 10-minute time limit, so I am afraid that the Virtual Proceedings will now adjourn until a convenient point after 6.30 pm for the government Statement.

Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Devolution of Policing and Justice Functions) Order 2012

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I immediately declare that the Official Opposition are in support of this move. It is worth spending a minute or so on how we got here. As the Minister rightly said, the devolution of policing and justice was a huge achievement after long and painstaking negotiations. I was long enough in the other place to remember the commendable efforts of the Government led by Sir John Major in initiating this process. When Labour came to power, we knew how sensitive and complicated all these issues were. We worked with all parties and the Irish Government to ensure that the transfer of power and the creation of a new Department of Justice in Northern Ireland were stable and sustainable.

David Ford is doing a very good job in difficult circumstances. He has the full support of Vernon Coaker, shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, in carrying out his challenging and important job. He and the Northern Ireland Executive have done good work in continuing progress in building peace. However, the violence of last week, most notably in Belfast, where 20 police officers were injured, shows that there is much to be done. Parading and areas of dispute around parades have a knock-on effect on community relations and the terrorist threat. Heightened tensions mean heightened security and we should all be aware of the desire of dissident republicans to wreck the peace process. I pay tribute to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the courage and determination they show every day to protect and serve everyone in Northern Ireland.

Significant responsibilities on national security still lie with the Northern Ireland Office. The boundaries are sometimes blurred between what is national security and what is the responsibility of the devolved Administration and the PSNI. That is inevitable and part of the process. We all know that there are no cut-and-dried, easy solutions in Northern Ireland. In the attempt to take everyone with us, there will be blurred edges.

This order is an attempt to do something about that, and my contribution today will be mainly to ask some questions. I am not quite sure of one or two things. I apologise for that. I am new to this job and to studying the legislation affecting Northern Ireland. I hope to learn quickly enough. Article 7 says:

“(2) In paragraph (1) for ‘Secretary of State’ substitute ‘Department of Justice’.

(3) In paragraph (2) for ‘Secretary of State’ substitute ‘appropriate authority’”.

Is there a reason why these cannot both be allocated to the Department of Justice? In paragraph (4), can the areas of authority be defined a bit better between the Department of Justice and the Secretary of State? Can this section be explained a bit better? I do not quite grasp why the responsibility lies where it does.

In Article 14, there seems to be some dubiety about the status of the National Policing Improvement Agency. I am informed by our Home Office spokesman that the agency is being abolished as part of the Crime and Courts Bill. If it is being abolished, why is it mentioned here?

Apart from these questions, the Official Opposition fully support this move. It makes further progress in devolution in Northern Ireland and we are fully supportive of the Government’s actions.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I, too, support this small piece of legislation. I do not think it is particularly contentious, but I would like to use the opportunity to pick up on some matters of devolution.

As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has said, a considerable amount of work has been done in ensuring that these last few pieces of the devolution of policing and justice functions are completely satisfactorily. When my predecessor as leader of the Alliance Party, Sir Oliver Napier, was Minister of Law Reform in the ill fated 1974 power-sharing Executive, one of the key problems was that policing and justice functions had not been devolved. Therefore, when things got out of control it was, partly at least, because the power-sharing Assembly did not have the possibility of enforcing its own rule. When my successor as leader of the Alliance Party, David Ford, became Minister of Justice, it was in the context of agreement on the devolution of policing and justice—something that Seamus Mallon, the deputy leader of the SDLP and later Deputy First Minister, pointed out was the absolutely critical thing in ensuring that there was a serious and stable devolution settlement. He was right about that, although for a long period it was believed that it was so contentious that it was quite impossible. There was an element of truth in that. Without other political agreements, perhaps it was impossible.

However, there is one aspect of policing that remains contentious and difficult, when many others are now able to be discussed—a policing board, district policing partnerships and so on. It was the aspect referred to by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in which I have been slightly involved lately—the question of contentious parades. These are not easy matters, as all noble Lords around the Room know very well. One of the things that struck me is that some of those who have been saying in strident terms that the problem is mistaken judgments by the Parades Commission have had least to say in terms of proposals for better decisions by a Parades Commission or another body. I am not sure that I see another way of addressing this problem until we find ourselves considering another instrument that is devolving responsibility to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister or to the Executive itself.

For as long as there is a Parades Commission that is acting independently and where elected representatives at the most senior level do not have responsibility for decisions being taken about these issues, but policing itself has to gather up the problems, we will continue to have this kind of contention. I should like to ask the Minister whether, if this order goes through—as I have no doubt it will—he will take back to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and other colleagues a proposal that they look seriously at the devolution of responsibility to the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister whereby they would have to resolve the problem of parades. Some might say, “That is impossible”, but some would have said that about policing in general. It is not a sustainable position, when people are appointed to make difficult decisions and are backed up by the Government here in London, that those decisions are always second-guessed by way of criticism without there being any specific proposal for a realistic alternative decision.

I hear each side saying that the answer is for the fellows on the other side to back down. We were very used to that in the past, but there must come a time when we will have another devolution order in this place that will put the responsibility back to where it actually belongs, the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland to make decisions about these matters and then to live with them.

However, I want to say how much I back this order and how striking it is that an issue involving devolution of policing and justice, modest as it is, is no longer a matter of contention.

[Lord McAvoy]

Has the noble Lord had any thoughts about the process that could be used by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to arrive at conclusions?

[Lord Alderdice]

I am hesitant because, of course, as soon as one makes a proposal, the likely response is to knock it down. However, I make the following observations. First, it is clear that the elected representatives did have a set of proposals that they were prepared to bring to the Assembly but which the Orange Order at that stage was not prepared to accept. I believe that the Orange Order has come some distance since that time and, in my discussions, properly mandated representatives of the Orange Order engaged with local nationalist constituents. That would not have happened some years ago. It was a promising thing, even if agreement was not able to be reached. I encourage the First and Deputy First Ministers and the parties in the Assembly to pick their proposals up and to try to push them through.

Consumers: Low-Cost Flight Information

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I am sure that it is not only in your Lordships’ House but outside it that many will be gratified by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, securing this debate to draw attention to the problems of what are described in the Question as low-cost airlines but are probably more correctly described as no-frills flyers. They are no longer low-cost for many people, which is the issue that I want to focus on. As the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood, indicated, the advent of these no-frills flyers introduced many people to the opportunity to go to places that they had not been to before, or had been to and wanted to return to much more frequently than they could previously afford. On the face of it, this is an excellent thing; it is the democratising of airspace in many ways. However, it has led to many unexpected, untoward and, in some cases, counterproductive effects for people.

First, it meant that many more people flew. For those who are concerned about the environment, this was not entirely a positive outcome. Indeed, one of the results was increased pressure on the Government to raise the taxation of all airlines to deal with the fact that more people were flying, and it would be a good idea to reduce the number though taxation for the environment’s sake.

However, the consequences went much further than this. The airlines were able to operate as low-cost in the first few years because they started off paying their staff much less than the established airlines did. They had smaller fleets and when they enlarged them they kept to the same models of aircraft, which were much cheaper for them to service and replace than the traditional airlines. However, when it became clear that, even with these benefits, it was not possible for them to keep their low prices, they tried to keep the reputation for low prices by the headline price being low and all the other additions being added in.

One could look at that as a simple, tactical sales device—outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, so elegantly and in such detail that there is no need for me to go into it in great detail—but the purpose of the whole exercise is effectively to continue to deceive the population into thinking that these are low-cost flights when in truth that is no longer what they are. All sorts of things that one would deem to be the proper costs of any operator and that have been described by the noble Lord—their insurance, their administration, the provision of boarding cards and so on—were separated out as though somehow these were other charges. The idea that was put about by Michael O’Leary and others was that, in order to enable more people to be able to afford to fly, people should not have to pay for things that were only in the interests of some of the fliers. For example, if you do not want to bring many suitcases with you, why should you pay a large amount for those who are? That seemed like a noble argument—that everyone should have the possibility of flying without paying for things they did not want and that only some people would want. In fact, as has been demonstrated in this debate, that is not where we are now. It became more and more an operation of deceit which reflected a culture which had developed with some, but by no means all, of the no-frills flyers.

I became aware of this culture when I took a Ryanair flight—something I did not make a habit of doing before and made a determined effort never to do again—to France with my wife. Unfortunately, during the short time we were there we had an accident and she was unable to walk to the plane when we got back. She needed to have a wheelchair to take her to the plane. We never suspected that it would not be possible to get a wheelchair without booking in advance and paying for it, but that was absolutely the position of Ryanair. When we subsequently checked we could find no other airline in the world that was charging people for the use of a wheelchair, but that was the Ryanair position. When it was challenged—not by us, but by others—at a European level, the company lost but they found another way of putting a charge on: 50p for everyone to pay for the disabled.

To me, the issue was not that precise problem, though it was of itself significant; it was what it represented about the culture that had developed in Ryanair. It was not a culture that was concerned to democratise airspace—that had a feeling that ordinary people ought to have the chance to travel more, enjoy more holidays and see more of the world. It was a dishonest and uncaring culture for people who were simply seen as milch cows to be treated very much as milch cows and herded through in as large numbers as possible.

People find themselves in increasing difficulty because they started by believing that they could fly to Perugia or wherever and could get themselves an inexpensive home. That would mean they would continue to have to fly there and it became increasingly problematic for many of these people to maintain themselves. Added to this is the fact that, in many places, this is the only way to get to that particular area. Most of the airports subsidise Mr O’Leary. He actually asks to be paid to fly to their airports while most UK operators find they have to pay the British Airports Authority and others in order to maintain a service. When a local authority that pays Mr O’Leary the subsidy says it is not in a position to pay any more he simply, at the drop of a hat, stops flights to that area and all the people who have become dependent on those flights find that it is impossible for them to continue. That is just part of the culture which has developed.

One might say that it is up to people to watch out for themselves and that this is just one airline or a small number of them. This is not so. When you introduce this kind of commercial practice it becomes increasingly difficult for other airlines to function without adopting similar practices. This was the problem in the banking world. I remember asking the chairman of one bank if it was really the case that most of the people on the board of the bank understood the complex instruments that were now being used in banking. He laughed and said that hardly a single one had the remotest idea. All they knew was that the other banks were doing this and making a profit so they had no alternative but to go down that road or lose custom. That is what has happened in the airline industry, not only in the way of charging but also in the way of treating the customers. It is not just a question that the buyer should beware. The whole airline industry has been adversely affected by this negative, disrespectful way of treating customers which cannot be sustained economically without all the complaints and difficulties which have already been referred to.

It is serious, because it is like a virus which pervades things and deteriorates them, and that is exactly what has been done. It becomes very difficult to reverse the process unless there are some regulations or pressures that require operators to behave in a different way. Here is where government comes in. I have some questions for the Minister. Which? submitted an OFT super-complaint on credit and debit card charges in March 2011, leading to a promise from HMG just before Christmas last year that the Treasury would ban excessive card surcharges by the end of 2012, with a consultation in the early part of this year. On 8 February, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Mark Hoban MP, said:

“We have brought forward legislation to tackle excessive and opaque card charges with the aim of banning above-cost surcharges from mid-2014”.

I am glad it is moving ahead, but it seems to have slipped by 18 months over the period of the consultation. Why has this delay arisen?

It would be perfectly possible for the Government to press the airline operators—not just Ryanair—to differentiate out clearly those elements of their charges which are properly being paid to Governments as a tax from lots of other things that they describe as levies, surcharges and fees and which they bunch in as though they were being imposed on the airlines by the Government and other authorities. It is actually just a deceit because they are part of their own essential operating costs that would be absorbed by any other business. Is it possible for the Government to ensure a degree of transparency, clarity and honesty in these charges?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for introducing this Question for Short Debate and to all other noble Lords who have contributed.

In an open free-market economy such as ours, with its age-old emphasis on enterprise and initiative, there can be no objection to firms choosing business models that suit their aims, even if it causes them reputational issues. My noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood described some of the benefits of low-cost airlines. They have been innovative and successful, and have grown into important players in the aviation industry, employing substantial numbers of people and utilising great amounts of capital. Schedule airlines, operating to different business models, are holding their own. I should therefore like to add to the premise of the noble Lord’s debate that people buying scheduled airline tickets on the internet also need access to the information they require.

The UK aviation market is diverse and supports consumer choice. What suits a solo flyer with no baggage might not suit a family of four with hold baggage who would like a meal on their flight. The UK’s aviation market has evolved to support these different needs. As a consequence of this diversity and choice, air fares can come with a range of extras, fees and charges. Airlines are required to publish on their websites the information about these fees and charges, but it can be hard for consumers to compare them when they are shopping around for the best price for an air ticket, as has been pointed out by many noble Lords.

The Government’s position is to support the aviation consumer in two principal ways. First, there must be transparency about what is and what is not included in the price. The consumer must know how much to pay in total before he clicks to accept the deal. Secondly, adequate information must be provided for the consumer to make an informed choice on which airline to fly with, regardless of the business model that that airline follows. I will give examples in support of that position.

EU Regulation No. 1008 sets out common rules for the operation of EU air services. Crucially, it sets out the transparency requirements for the display of air fares. Prices are required to be displayed inclusive of all unavoidable and foreseeable taxes, fees and charges at all times. Optional services such as checked baggage or priority boarding are required to be offered on an opt-in basis only. These services should be clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. These requirements are designed to ensure that consumers are able to compare the prices of flights across a number of airlines and that consumers select only the optional extras that they require. The requirements are strongly supported by the Government.

I now turn to another specific proposal that will significantly help consumers. We wish to help purchasers to compare services from different providers on the basis of accurate information. Aviation markets can deliver best value only where objective service information is freely available so that passengers and freight owners have genuine choice between suppliers. We have therefore included in the Civil Aviation Bill currently being considered in Committee in another place a new information duty on the CAA either to publish, or to arrange for the aviation sector to publish, consumer information and advice that it considers appropriate to help people to compare aviation services. This new publication duty would allow the CAA to move into areas where it cannot always obtain information from public sources, such as delays, complaints, baggage handling and environmental performance. The CAA would be able to penalise companies that withheld the data requested. The CAA must also ensure that the benefits of providing information outweigh the costs, so that it does not duplicate existing information or provide data that consumers do not want. The best protection for consumers in terms of choice and value lies in the operation of a competitive market. Consumers need clear information on price and service quality in order to make informed choices, and to ensure that markets deliver consumer benefits in practice. I look forward to discussing these, and other, aspects of the Bill further when it is introduced into your Lordships’ House.

We share consumers’ concern about the high level of payment surcharges applied by some companies, and that often people are not aware of the level of these charges until almost the end of the booking process. This makes it difficult to compare prices and shop around for a good deal. It is not right that a business tries to hide the true cost of its services by implying that its prices are made up of elements beyond its control when they are not.

What are the Government doing? First, consumers are already protected against misleading pricing under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations. Secondly, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood, last December the Government announced their intention to consult on early implementation of the payment surcharges provision of the new European consumer rights directive ahead of their transposition deadline in 2014. The provision will ban businesses, in scope, from charging customers fees which exceed the costs for using that means of payment. The Government plan public consultation on early implementation within the next few months, with the aim that new UK rules could take effect by the end of 2012. The Government will publish guidance prior to the change taking effect to help businesses adjust their pricing strategies to comply with the provision. I stress that this work is about ensuring transparency in headline prices, and not about price control. The aim is to ensure that only the true cost of using a particular means of payment can be charged separately where a business wishes to do so.

I have been asked several questions. I will my do best to answer them, but if I fail, I will of course write in the usual way. On the general point about ticket transparency and how consumers can effectively compare prices, including hidden charges, the Civil Aviation Authority has published a table showing the optional charges which apply when booking with major airlines operating in the UK. This is a valuable tool which will assist consumers in making informed decisions when booking flights.

The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, asked me when we will stop airlines charging huge fees for printing a boarding pass at check-in. The business model adopted by some well known carriers requires passengers to check-in online and print their own boarding pass. This is legitimate so long as people are clearly aware of it. There is no restriction on the level of charge that an airline may impose for this service. The sum of €40 has been widely quoted. This appears rather excessive, and is unlikely to reflect the true cost to the airline of printing a pass. This practice, along with the identity of the carriers which employ it, has been well published, including in your Lordships’ House tonight. Wherever possible, consumers should take steps to avoid liability to pay the charge. If this appears unfeasible, it is perhaps a factor which they should take into account before booking the flight.

The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, also talked about the EU 261 levy. EU Regulation 261/2004 gives air consumers rights to assistance and compensation in the event of their flight being cancelled or delayed for over three hours, or if they are denied boarding—that is, bumped off the flight for someone else. In April 2011, Michael O’Leary announced that Ryanair would impose a €2 EU 261 levy on its air tickets. This was marketed as a measure forced on the airline by the EU. In fact, it is a form of Ryanair self-insurance to pay for the obligations that Regulation 261 imposes on the airlines.

The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, also asked how often consumers compare prices effectively, including hidden charges. I have mentioned the Civil Aviation Authority table. He also asked about the refund of taxes when passengers do not fly. Government taxes, such as air passenger duty, should not be paid if the passenger does not fly. Many carriers will refund this element of the fare on application. However, they may charge an administration fee for doing so and in practice this may swallow up most or all of the amount due to be repaid to the consumer.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice told us, with some justification, about his distressing experience of no-frills airlines. EU Regulation 1107/2006 gives those who are disabled or who have reduced mobility rights to travel. Wheelchair access to aircraft is not chargeable.

My noble friend also talked about the Which? super-complaint. In 2011, the Which? consumer magazine submitted a super-complaint to the OFT, calling for it to investigate excessive surcharges for paying by credit or debit cards.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice also asked about the delay in the implementation of the consumer rights directive until 2014. Although the directive will take two years to come into effect throughout Europe, it is due to be transposed into national law by mid-2014. The OFT has said that companies should be up-front about charges straight away, and the Government propose to consult on early implementation in the UK.

My noble friend also asked what assessment has been made of the effectiveness of Article 23.

[Lord Alderdice]

I asked whether what the Minister in another place said was true—that implementation would be delayed until the end of 2014.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think it is probably better if I concentrate on answering as much as I can and, if necessary, write to my noble friend.

Aviation is fundamentally an international business. The Government do not intend to introduce tighter restrictions on airline pricing policies in isolation. The European Commission has undertaken a fitness check on the fare transparency requirements, during which it has taken evidence from airlines, the travel industry, enforcement bodies and consumer groups. Its findings have yet to emerge but we understand that the evidence suggests that the rules are not enforced consistently across Europe.

In conclusion, we take this matter seriously. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for posing his Question this evening.

Airports: Heathrow

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is quite right in his initial analysis, with which I agree. However, at the moment we do not see a problem, and for that reason we would be unable to impose a public service obligation.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, my noble friend may not see a problem, but will he take it from me that those of us from Northern Ireland who are users of the service do share the anxieties raised by the noble Lord about British Airways’ previous treatment of Northern Ireland? This is not just a question of the economy of a company but the economy of a part of the United Kingdom. Having slots to other airports is simply not an adequate replacement. Economy flexible flights with British Midland now cost well in excess of £500 return. It is clear that it is making a profit. Therefore, it does not seem reasonable to assume other than that the Government should take some responsibility and assist the Northern Ireland Assembly rather than simply leave this matter to the Assembly to deal with on its own.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. There is a further difficulty with the public service obligation, which is that one can be imposed only if there is a difficulty with services to London as a whole, as a region. If there is a problem with services to London as a hub airport, that would not justify imposing a public service obligation, so at the moment it is difficult to have the effect that the noble Lord seeks.