Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

On all these assessments, as I have said before, there is a process. If we are not talking at cross-purposes, it was about data and information we received, as my right honourable friend Andrew Mitchell said earlier to the committee about the assessments made during a particular period of time in 2024. On the issue of the principle of law, I agree with the noble Baroness that the principle should be directly applied.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, no one can view what is going on in Gaza with any equanimity; it is truly horrendous, and Israel is coming in for a lot of criticism for what is happening there. But one has to look at this with some form of balance and look at who may be responsible for the majority of the problems. Hamas was responsible for the original horrendous acts, and its terrorists are preventing its own people sheltering in its caves. It is purloining the aid that is getting in and selling it on at a high price to its population, which is very cynical. It is also cynically sending rockets to the crossing at two places, closing them temporarily. So Hamas must bear some of the responsibility, and I am afraid that UNRWA is not entirely blameless either. Does the Minister agree?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord on the role that Hamas has played. As I said earlier, I think that many in Gaza recognise the devastation it has wreaked on the people of Gaza. The United Kingdom position is very clear: we regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation, and it cannot be part of the future of Gaza. It could end this now.

The noble Lord points out the missile attacks on Kerem Shalom specifically, which curtailed the aid delivery. Equally, the current Rafah operation has closed the Rafah border, which was crucial for fuel supplies getting into some of the key hospitals, so we are also seized of that. On the issue of not holding Hamas to account, nothing could be further from the truth. We hold it accountable and responsible but, when we deal with this, this is not unfair scrutiny of Israel. Israel is a country that everyone from your Lordships’ House stood with, and rightly so, after those abhorrent events of 7 October, and we continue to work with it as a constructive friend and partner.

Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the situation with the Houthis, the UK has taken the principled stand that they have sought indiscriminately to attack and disrupt international commercial shipping. Close to 20% of international commercial shipping went through those channels in the Red Sea, which is why the UK’s response has been robust. We have heard the public declarations by the Houthis. Prior to 7 October, they had started negotiating with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia a ceasefire and a solution to Yemen. We have not lost sight of that—we continue to be engaged on that brief—but the Houthis’ actions do not reflect their words. If they are true to their words, they will cease—if indeed the ceasefire happens. I am not currently holding out hope for that—let us wait.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will remember that Golda Meir said that, if the Arabs put down their arms, there would be no war, but, if Israel put down its arms, there would be no Israel. Is it not perverse to suggest that we stop providing arms to Israel, the victim of that horrendous attack, which is trying to defend itself against further similar attacks?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, going back to what I said earlier, I do not believe that I or the Foreign Secretary have suggested that. We have stood with Israel, in terms of its security concerns, over many years—well before 7 October. Israel is a partner to the United Kingdom, but, as many recognise in Israel itself and as we are saying directly to Israel, being a friend and partner also means that we need this fighting to stop for the sake of the hostages. To get the hostages out, the fighting must stop, which will also allow the aid in. On Golda Meir, I recently saw the film made about her. One thing is prevalent in all this, and in how she made peace with Anwar Sadat: the only prevailing sustainable solution is a pathway to peace.

Gaza: Hunger Alleviation

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Monday 18th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we have been very clear about the importance of aid entering Gaza unimpeded. There have been claims and counterclaims. The United Kingdom has been very clear that Israel is not letting enough trucks through the crossing. The number that my noble friend quotes is factual, but it is also true that 500 trucks were entering before the war. Some statements have been made that commercial items were included within that. Yes, they were, but there was also food grown in Gaza, which is no longer possible. That is why there is an acute need. The 500 that is consistently stated is not a high threshold but the minimum threshold, and it is needed now.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware how much of the aid is getting through but not being distributed because it is being siphoned off by Hamas? Does he have any figures at that end of the scale?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, all the aid that gets through is checked first and foremost by the Israelis themselves at the various checkpoints including, as my noble friend said, at Kerem Shalom, which has a very enhanced capacity that needs to be fully utilised. On the issue of aid within Gaza, undoubtedly, with the current chaos in Gaza there is no infrastructure. The roads are no longer fully operational. There are some military roads, which have allowed certain countries —including recently, as reported, Morocco—to deliver aid to the north of Gaza. We need consistent support from the Israeli authorities on the ground to ensure aid distribution. UNRWA provided a vital function. I have reiterated our shock, horror and abhorrence at the reports about UNRWA, and UNRWA is taking action. We have not yet resumed funding, but we are looking at that very carefully.

The difference between Hamas, a terrorist organisation, and Israel, a Government, is that under IHL Israel has obligations that it needs to fulfil as a Government with responsibility to the Geneva conventions. Many in Israel, including many NGOs, are very reflective of that. I have met with many hostage families who are shocked by what they see in Gaza, notwithstanding the horror that they are continuing to face themselves. That is why we are clear: stop this fighting now, release the hostages, let humanitarian aid enter Gaza unimpeded. Then we can talk about the medium to long term on peace and security, which is an equal right of Israelis and Palestinians.

Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is intolerable, but I want to ask the Minister about the role of UNRWA in all this. UNRWA was certainly in league with Hamas in many of its recent actions, and on 7 October. Now it seems to be playing a role in preventing aid getting across. I heard today, for example, that it was preventing forklift trucks appearing at crossings to allow the transfer of goods. It was also stopping the world food agency getting food in, which Israel is trying to promote. UNRWA is playing a bad game. What does the Minister think of that?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

UNRWA has been severely challenged over the reports and allegations made against specific members of UNRWA staff. In that regard, I am sure the noble Lord will agree with me that the UN acted quite decisively on the individuals whose names were shared by Israel with UNRWA. I do not agree with the noble Lord on some of the specifics of what these individuals were doing. From speaking with the Palestinian Authority, I understand that they had an important role in Gaza in providing support. I am not aware of the specific report about forklift trucks that the noble Lord raises. I will certainly look into that.

As I said earlier, we are fully supporting the wider UN effort. The noble Lord will know that the Secretary-General and former French Foreign Minister Colonna are conducting an investigation into the specifics of UNRWA and its future. It is important that the concerns that we and our international partners have raised are fully mitigated before we look at any future funding and support for UNRWA.

Israel and Palestine

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Monday 15th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I will first share my own thoughts and those of the Government. I think I speak for every Member of your Lordships’ House when I say that the loss of life we saw in the terrorist attacks on 7 October, and subsequently the loss of so many innocent lives in Gaza, is something we all deplore. That is why the Government have been working extensively. I and my noble friend the Foreign Secretary, literally during the course of the last month or so and during the Christmas period, have been working to ensure that we get the agreements in place to allow for humanitarian support to be provided to those most in need. No one needs to demonstrate how the situation in Gaza is being played out; we have seen it. There is acute need, particularly for the most vulnerable, and women and children in particular—70% of those who have been killed are women and children. I alluded to the importance of collating evidence earlier as well. There are international institutions looking at this, and Israel itself is a responsible state that has responsibilities under various agreements it has signed. Now is the time to focus on getting that sustainable ceasefire, so we can see that rebuilding, getting support in and also, let us not forget, getting the hostages out who have been held since 7 October.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the war would end tomorrow if the hostages were released, but is it not time to call out the role of Iran in all of this? Although Iran is apparently keeping out of it, it is promoting Hamas to carry out its horrible acts, and pushing the Houthis into the direction they are taking. Without Iran, they would not be doing this. Is it not time we told them to stop?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that we have done exactly that. While there may not be direct operational instruction from Iran to those militias that are being supported—not just those that have been supported in the Occupied Territories, but those further afield—I assure the noble Lord that we are making that case. My noble friend the Foreign Secretary recently spoke directly with the Foreign Minister of Iran, and that point was made very strongly.

Gaza: Post-conflict Reconstruction

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Thursday 19th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I speak not for the US Government but for the British Government. However, we both stand by the provision of humanitarian support around the world—a proud tradition irrespective of political leadership that continues today for the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. As I have said, the Prime Minister has announced additional funding and support. We are focused on that vital humanitarian support, but I am sure that the noble Lord recognises that Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people. This is a very fluid situation. It is time for calm heads. Everyone was shocked to their core by the devastation we saw at the Al-Ahli Hospital—I pay particular tribute to the Lords spiritual for the strong Anglican tradition associated with that hospital—but we cannot jump to conclusions. At a time of conflict, we must ensure that there is patience, resolve and calm before we look at attribution. I assure noble Lords that the United Kingdom Government, as my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary have said, are looking at this very carefully.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that a Hamas-free Gaza, if we can ever get to that point, will provide an enormous opportunity for the case to be made strongly for a possible Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza? Does he agree that, with Hamas there, that is impossible?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I reflected the noble Lord’s sentiments in my earlier responses. We are engaging with all key partners, including the Palestinian Authority. Earlier this morning I had a meeting with Hussein al-Sheikh, a senior member of the Executive of Mr Abbas. The Prime Minister has engaged directly with President Abbas, I have spoken to Foreign Minister al-Maliki, and the Foreign Secretary has been fully engaged. We have done so because the PA represents those who represent the interests of the Palestinians. In the future of that region, the rights and protection of all citizens, irrespective of faith or community, must be upheld. For the long-term horizon, that means a sustainable, two-state solution with Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace. However, at this moment we must ensure the return of the hostages, that this threat from Hamas is put to bed and, ultimately, that sustainable peace can be achieved. We all wish and pray for a future in that region without Hamas.

Malaria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Monday 25th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the Minister of State for the Commonwealth, I am working closely with our colleagues in Rwanda. Certainly, the United Kingdom was and is the biggest Commonwealth donor in fighting malaria, and we will be working closely with Rwanda to ensure this remains on the agenda for CHOGM in June.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord saw the encouraging report by Adrian Hill in the Times today about the vaccine trials. One of the things he said was that if the vaccine trial is successful, as it seems to be, it will cost a mere $3 per person to vaccinate the African population. That would require $600 million per year. Is the Minister aware of the cost of this scheme? Are the Government going to come forward with a response?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is of course right to point out the impact of malaria, particularly on Africa. Indeed, when you look at the statistics, they are very stark: 95% of cases and 96% of deaths from malaria are on the African continent. I have not read the specific article, but I am aware of the support and the issue of having effective costs. I think the real progress will be made through the World Health Organization and ensuring that vaccines are made available to all those who need them at a cost which is acceptable, reasonable and sensible for those who require them.

Israel: West Bank

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that we implore both sides to sit down and negotiate so that an agreement can be reached in the interests of both peoples.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, it is clear that annexation does not mean the takeover of the West Bank, but the takeover of some parts that have been on the table in every suggested peace deal for decades—namely, in land swaps such as in the Jordan river valley, as has been mentioned, in exchange for land elsewhere. Does the Minister agree that this is a vital opportunity for Mr Abbas to negotiate again for a two-state solution?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I agree that what we want to see and what is required—it has been a long-standing position, and we remain steadfast—is a negotiated two-state solution that works for Israel in terms of its security concerns, and provides for a sovereign Palestinian nation.

Syria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Thursday 30th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord, in commending his efforts on the ground and on raising this issue consistently, that we continue to raise with all partners, including those within the NATO alliance, such as Turkey, their obligations as members of NATO. However, I stand by what I said: those who have committed any crimes and atrocities should be held to account.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, it seems that the Russians were helpful in at least one respect: bringing about a ceasefire. However, what efforts are our Government making to work with Russia to help prevent this disastrous outbreak of Covid-19?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise this. The Covid-19 pandemic around the world has shown the interdependency of states across the piece. We are working multilaterally to ensure that anyone, wherever they are in the world, benefits from what we hope will be a solution found through a vaccine. In the interim, we are providing humanitarian aid. I am proud that we have already given £744 million of aid for these causes, including to organisations such as the World Health Organization. We will continue to work with Russia, as we have previously, through the UN and particularly on the Security Council, to see how we can work together to find lasting peace in Syria.

Middle East Peace Plan

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Turnberg

Thursday 30th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that certain parts of the Arab world share the objective of the plan’s being a first step. Countries have made statements according to how they view it. On the issue of engagement with the Palestinians, and I have said, we hope that the Palestinians engage on the first step of the proposals. We are making efforts. As I said earlier, my right honourable friend has spoken to President Abbas, and we will meet the Palestinian representative to London later today.

[Lord Turnberg (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it would be no exaggeration to say that this proposal is controversial, but it is certainly not the endpoint. It is not even the beginning of the end, nor the end of the beginning. It being on the table might be the beginning of the beginning of a process. Surely both sides can discuss it, at the very least. Does the Minister agree that objecting from the outset, as the Palestinians have done, is not terribly helpful?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am coming to the beginning of the end of my time. Noble Lords have repeatedly and rightly raised issues; I am sure that we will return to this plan and the wider issues across the Middle East. It is important that there is something on the table. Countries across the region have sought to give due consideration and, as I said, this is not the UK plan but an American plan. The United Kingdom position, of a viable two-state solution with a shared capital in Jerusalem, has not changed.