National Cyber Security Centre

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 16th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite correct and we have often discussed these issues and challenges. The mitigations we have put in and the advice we provide are all part of an overall package but, as I am sure he will agree, the challenge is that we also need sharp-end sanctions against these states. As I know from my experience at the Foreign Office over the last few years, we never used to call out or challenge state actors for cyberattacks. We now do so. The two countries the noble Lord named—Russia and Iran—are very much part of our focus. I am sure he will acknowledge that we have imposed cyber sanctions on Russia.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, to take the Minister back to prevention, he will be aware of the increase in the number of ransomware issues—the incoming Costa Rican Government last year and the Irish healthcare system the year before were both hit by ransomware attacks. Can he tell the House more about what we are learning through international co-operation? Prevention is obviously better than having to deal with a significant problem afterwards, so I hope that we are learning something from other countries that have had to deal with this and that we can extend that to public bodies and private organisations.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I totally agree with the noble Baroness and assure her that we work very closely with our key international partners in calling out some of these cyberattacks against companies or even government websites and systems. We seek to act together and have done so. She will be aware that at the beginning of next month we will host an AI summit, which the Prime Minister is overseeing, very much aimed at exactly what she articulates—how we can learn from each other while improving our responses. I always say that, for cyber and many of the other challenges we face, as good as mitigations or mechanisms may be, those who seek to cause us harm—be it to business or directly to the Government—are looking at new ways to overcome them, so we will continue to share and co-operate with our key partners and allies on this.

Afghanistan: Women

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I believe that that is a good idea. I have engaged directly with the Deputy Secretary-General on the concept. It will be held in the margins of the Commission on the Status of Women conferences that take place in New York. However, I also support, as does the Foreign Secretary, the strong suggestion that it be held within the region to allow for a greater focus on the rights of women and girls, not just in Afghanistan but across the Islamic world, including the issue that noble Lords have often rightly debated: the current plight of women and girls in Iran.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this is the third time that we have discussed this issue in the last week, and I think that indicates how strongly your Lordships’ House feels about it. I take the opportunity to thank the Minister for his responses, which we broadly welcome; we are grateful that he is involved in this on behalf of the British Government.

The Minister has spoken about engagement with Islamic countries in south Asia and across the Middle East. He will understand how important it is that we work multilaterally across all countries to encourage the Taliban and do everything that we can to reverse this policy. He has mentioned that he has engaged with Deputy Secretary-General Amina Mohammed regarding this conference. What more can we do to support her in her efforts? She could be a guiding light for all of us in trying to reverse this dreadful and appalling policy.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind remarks. This policy is draconian and has no basis in any society, and that includes the Islamic world; that has to be made clear. I assure her that it is not just the Islamic world that we have engaged with, but there has to be a particular focus there.

The Taliban have not budged an inch; if anything, they have gone into more aggressive and abhorrent territory. We have seen the ban on girls’ education, along with the recent ban on women’s participation in NGOs. At the moment they have not gone further than that, but the situation on the ground is very challenging and testing. We are of course working with the UN and with international partners, including the likes of the United States and the European Union. It is important that we send a comprehensive, multilateral message to the Taliban that their actions will be taken very seriously.

As I am being candid, although I think we will not see the Taliban pulling back any time soon, I think the importance of delivering humanitarian aid and of women’s health and education should be paramount, and we need to look at practical solutions. In that, the Islamic world is going to be key.

Alaa Abd el-Fattah: Hunger Strike

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree. We must apply all the levers we have. This was a major part of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s meeting with President Sisi, including re-emphasising that Alaa is a British citizen; indeed, that was a point I made on Sunday when I spoke to the Egyptian ambassador. The fact that we want consular access is not something that we have dreamed up. It is something that should be granted as a matter of fact.

I also met both sisters last week before one of them travelled out; one is still here. They are concerned that he is not taking water. On the issue of proof of life, I know that their mother is outside the jail asking for that weekly letter. What is required urgently is confirmation of that very issue. We will press, and are pressing, on that point. Again, it is a basic fact of reassurance that the family need.

We are pushing on his detention and consular access. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary met Foreign Minister Shoukry and raised this issue. I also know that the United Nations has made representations: Volker Türk, the human rights commissioner, put out a very strong statement coinciding with what is in effect a UN conference. I do not want to beat around the bush in any way: while there has been constructive engagement, we have not yet been granted consular access. That is unacceptable. I assure all noble Lords—and the noble Baroness in particular, with her family connections—that I am fully invested in this. I am trying to do everything within my capacity, but am also ensuring that the Prime Minister and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary are fully versed with the issue and are engaging most directly.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not think that anyone in your Lordships’ House doubts the noble Lord’s commitment on this, or that he believes every word that he has said about doing what he can to help. But this is not a new issue. A British citizen may be dying—may indeed have died—in an Egyptian jail. As his condition deteriorates, it is absolutely essential that he has British consular access; it is not just a “nice to have”. I welcome that the Prime Minister apparently raised his case directly but, if even the Prime Minister cannot secure consular access for a British citizen, what happens next? The Government have to escalate this, to step up the pressure, because the pressure on his family and friends is beyond belief. Imagine that we were in that situation, of not knowing if a wrongly imprisoned loved one was dead or alive: it is just inconceivable. Has it been made clear to the noble Lord’s Egyptian counterparts and other relevant Ministers that there will be—and could be very soon—serious diplomatic consequences for their actions? Can he really say that he is confident that the Government have done enough?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, no one knows how it feels for the family. I know there was a small intervention when I was not Minister for North Africa for a brief period, but meeting them directly that was one of the first actions I took in the role. Both sisters were outside the FCDO and I invited them in, because for me that was just the basic and human thing to do. We discussed the matter quite specifically. I totally take on board what the noble Baroness said. I will reassure her, to this extent: while the broader relationship with the Egyptians is an important one, this has a massive bearing on the nature of that relationship.

Equally, I know that colleagues in your Lordships’ House and the other place, including the shadow Foreign Secretary, are very much invested in this. Indeed, he is the constituency MP. I have spoken to him briefly previously, but I will reach out to specific people to update them in as detailed a manner as I can, and I will of course update the House.

I assure noble Lords that, of all the priorities I look at within my brief, the issue of whatever can be done to save the life of a British citizen ranks right up there in terms of my personal and political priorities, and the priorities for the Government. I will continue to work and to inform noble Lords of our work in this respect, but I and the Government get it. We should be pulling all the levers at our disposal to ensure that we get the basic right for every British citizen to have consular access. First and foremost, as the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, reminded us, we need to ensure that his welfare, which includes him being alive, is also verified by the authorities.

Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Bill

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Committee stage
Monday 14th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this seems an appropriate group on which to end Committee. It seems almost as if we have gone full circle, as there has been a similar theme throughout the debates at Second Reading and in Committee.

This group of amendments brings two things to the debate. When I spoke first today I made the point about the tension between us recognising the inadequacies of the Bill, with the comments made about ECB 2—which has now become part of the common language of your Lordships’ House—alongside acknowledging the necessity of the legislation. However, it also shows the determination—I am distracted by someone talking—of your Lordships’ House to make sure that the legislation is effective.

The only way we can do that is through the kinds of reviews that have been talked about, to ensure that, when we come to ECB 2, we will use the information—both the positives and the negatives as regards whether this legislation is working—to ensure that we can plug the gaps and take on other issues. I hope to see Companies House issues in the next legislation as well. On the issues we have been talking about—the resources needed, the commitment needed and the reports to Parliament—unless we have those reviews and assessments in place, we will not be able to do what needs to be done in ECB 2 or to plug any gaps we find here. Some kind of assessment, perhaps on the timescales envisaged in the amendment—an annual review to Parliament seems a very sensible way forward—are absolutely essential.

The only thing I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on is the importance of getting regulations as quickly as possible. I hope that, alongside those regulations, we will see some kind of impact assessment. Unless the Government know at least in part the impact that the regulations will have, there is no point in tabling them. We would not want to delay essential regulations in waiting for that but it is important that we have more information at all times.

I will flag up something that I raised in an earlier debate and which the Whip who was answering for the Government did not respond to. We hope that, when we come back on Report, we will have a commitment that we will see ECB 2 in the next Session of Parliament. We also want an assurance that that will be early in that Session. We have seen already that there is huge expertise in your Lordships’ House and that, when we have proper time for debate, we have better legislation. One of the saddest things about this Session of Parliament is that we have only just had the Second Reading of the Elections Bill. We have weeks to go and we are trying to cram a quart into a pint pot, and, having been here at two and three o’clock in the morning, I do not think that is a great way to make laws. I hope that we will see something of this importance very early on in the next Session of Parliament, which will enable this House to use its expertise to have proper debates and make a proper contribution.

All that remains to be said is that we want to have reviews in whatever form they take. These reviews and assessments will be absolutely essential if we are in any way serious about making this work.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for these amendments. I must admit that, as we reach the end of Committee, I find myself in a somewhat novel position as the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Minister to your Lordships’ House, talking to some amendments which have been raised in other departments. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have engaged directly with my noble friend Lord Callanan, my noble friend Lady Williams and me on various issues.

I thank all Front-Benchers for their direct engagement. It was an intense weekend of toing and froing for many people, but again, it shows the best of your Lordships’ House when we come together on such an important issue. Talking more broadly as the Sanctions Minister and the FCDO Minister, everyone understands the importance of getting the Bill through at the earliest opportunity, and I am grateful for noble Lords’ engagement in Committee.

Southern Rail: Disabled Passengers

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with Southern Rail regarding disabled passengers, in the light of the company’s plans to change the role of conductors.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, each train operator is required to participate in the passenger assist system, run by the Association of Train Operating Companies, which allows disabled passengers to book staff assistance when required, and in a disabled persons’ protection policy, enforced by the Office of Rail and Road, setting out the level of services and facilities that disabled passengers can expect, how to get staff assistance and how to get help. This will not change.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the shocking daily chaos that is Southern Rail. Passengers are at breaking point, and there is no support from the company or the Government, but all those cuts, cancellations and overcrowding problems are compounded for those with disabilities, for whom railway travel is becoming more difficult and, for some, inaccessible. Could the Minister confirm reports of a wheelchair user being told recently that their wheelchair was too heavy for the bus replacement service and that on the new driver-operated trains disabled passengers would have to phone the station at least 24 hours in advance? Is it really the Government’s view that a driver viewing 12 carriage doors on a screen the size of an iPad can guarantee the safety of all passengers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, if the noble Baroness provides me with the details of the wheelchair issue in the case that she raised specifically, I shall follow that up and come back with a direct answer. On some of the other issues that she raised, she is of course quite right—and I agree, as I have previously from the Dispatch Box—that the situation with Southern is unacceptable. I assure noble Lords that the new Secretary of State has made this issue and its resolution a priority. Indeed, the new Rail Minister is in front of the Transport Select Committee today, so there is a real baptism by fire for my colleague. It is a priority for the Secretary of State and the Rail Minister; the issue needs resolution.

On the issue of driver-only operated trains, as the noble Baroness is aware, it is not about making conductors redundant. It is about making them into train supervisors; they will continue to have a role in working with the driver of these trains, ensuring primarily the safety of all passengers.

Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2016

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 14th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the threat level in the United Kingdom, which is set by the independent Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, remains at severe. This means that a terrorist attack in our country is highly likely and could occur without warning. We can never entirely eliminate the threat from terrorism but we are determined to do all we can to minimise that threat both in the United Kingdom and in our interests abroad. Additionally, it is important that we demonstrate our support for other members of the international community in their efforts to tackle terrorism wherever it occurs. Proscription is an important part of the Government’s strategy to disrupt terrorist activities.

The four groups we propose to add to the list of terrorist organisations, amending Schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000, are as follows: first, the Global Islamic Media Front, or GIMF, including GIMF Bangla Team; secondly, the Turkestan Islamic Party, or TIP; thirdly, the Mujahidin Indonesia Timur, or MIT; fourthly, the Jamaah Anshorut Daulah. These groups are particularly relevant to south and south-east Asia, but also to the ongoing conflict in Syria. Your Lordships’ House will be aware that Syria is the number one destination for jihadists anywhere in the world. The attacks earlier this month in Bangladesh demonstrate the high threat from terrorism in Asia. Proscription sends a strong message that terrorist activity is not tolerated, wherever it happens. We propose to add these groups to the list of international terrorist organisations, amending Schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000. This is the 20th order under the Act.

Noble Lords will appreciate that I am unable to comment on specific intelligence. However, I can provide a brief summary of each group’s activities. The first group this order proscribes is the Global Islamic Media Front, including GIMF Bangla Team, which is also known as Ansarullah Bangla Team, or ABT, and Ansar-al Islam. GIMF is an Islamist extremist propaganda organisation associated with al-Qaeda and other extremist groups around the world. Its activities include propagating a so-called jihadist ideology, producing and disseminating training manuals to guide terror attacks and publishing jihadi newscasts. GIMF releases products in a number of languages including Arabic, Urdu, Bengali, English, German and French.

On 31 December 2015 GIMF announced a merger with Ansarullah Bangla Team, or ABT, subsuming it into its ranks and renaming it GIMF Bangla Team. Noble Lords will be aware of the rise of sectarian violence in Bangladesh. Prior to this merger, using the names ABT and Ansar-al Islam, the group we are proposing be proscribed today claimed responsibility for the prominent murders of and attacks on a number of secular bloggers since 2013. The group has also been linked to the circulation of a number of hit lists of bloggers, writers and activists around the world, including nine individuals based in Britain, seven in Germany, two in America, one in Canada and one in Sweden, in 2015. On 7 January 2016 GIMF Bangla Team published an infographic chronicling attacks carried out against “blasphemers” in Bangladesh from January 2013 to October 2015. The graphic contained names and locations of 13 attacks, eight of which were celebrated as successful assassinations. Bangladesh banned ABT in May 2015.

The second group to be proscribed is the Turkestan Islamic Party, or TIP, also known as the East Turkestan Islamic Party, or ETIP, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, or ETIM, and the Hizb al-Islami al-Turkistani, or HAAT. TIP is an Islamist terrorist and separatist organisation founded in 1989 by Uighur militants in western China. It aims to establish an independent caliphate in the Uighur state of Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region of north-west China and to name it East Turkestan. TIP is based in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan, and operates in China, central and south Asia and Syria. The group has claimed responsibility for a number of attacks in China, the latest of these being in April 2014. TIP has links to a number of terrorist groups including al-Qaeda. In November 2015, TIP released the 18th issue of its magazine Islamic Turkestan through the Global Islamic Media Front, detailing TIP’s so-called jihad against the Chinese authorities. Video footage from September 2015 shows TIP hosting training camps in areas controlled by the Pakistani Taliban in north Waziristan.

More recently, TIP has maintained an active and visible presence in the Syrian war and has published a number of video clips of its activities. Examples of this from March to April 2016 include: TIP claiming a joint attack with Jund al-Aqsa in Sahl al-Ghab and publishing a video of a suicide bomb attack in April 2016; a video published in March 2016 which promotes the victories of TIP in Syria and calls for Muslims to join jihad; and a video slideshow published in April 2016 which shows fighters and children in training. As noble Lords may be aware, TIP has been banned by the UN and is also sanctioned by the United States under the Terrorist Exclusion List.

The third group to be proscribed is Mujahidin Indonesia Timur—MIT—which is Indonesia’s most active terrorist group based in the mountainous jungle of Poso in Central Sulawesi. Its leader, Abu Wardah, also known as Santoso, is Indonesia’s most wanted terrorist. The group’s modus operandi is to attack the police and the army, which includes the use of explosives, including the use of IEDs, and shootings. MIT has been responsible for the deaths of more than a dozen police officers in Poso in the last three years. It has also used kidnappings and beheadings of Christian farmers in Poso to dissuade the local populace from assisting the police. MIT pledged its allegiance to Daesh in July 2014 and is assessed to have links to other Daesh-affiliated terrorist groups in the region.

MIT has also claimed responsibility for a number of recent attacks and has threatened attacks on targets across the country, including the capital—specifically, the Jakarta police headquarters and the presidential palace—in a video uploaded on 22 November 2015. In September 2015, MIT was banned as a terrorist group by the USA and the UN.

The last group to be proscribed is Jamaah Anshorut Daulah. It was established in March 2015, following the merger of several Indonesian extremist and terrorist groups aligned to Daesh. JAD, as it is known, has extensive links to Daesh and actively recruits fighters in Syria. This group is led by the imprisoned extremist cleric Aman Abdurrahman and has close ties to other terrorist groups, including Daesh. Its membership includes several former Jemaah Islamiyah members. JI was, of course, responsible for the 2002 and 2005 Bali attacks. JAD was responsible for the attack near Sarinah mall in Jakarta in January 2016, which was claimed by Daesh and resulted in the deaths of seven people, including the five attackers, and 20 people, including five police officers, being injured.

Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000 provides a power for the Home Secretary to proscribe an organisation if she believes it is currently concerned in terrorism. If the statutory test is met, the Home Secretary may exercise her discretion to proscribe the organisation. In considering whether to exercise this discretion, the Home Secretary takes a number of factors into account, including the nature and scale of an organisation’s activities and the need to support other members of the international community in tackling terrorism. Proscription in effect outlaws a listed organisation and makes it unable to operate in the United Kingdom. Proscription can also support other disruptive activity, such as the use of immigration powers, including exclusion, prosecutions for other offences and acts to support strong messaging to deter fundraising and recruitment. Additionally, assets of a proscribed group are liable to seizure as a terrorist asset.

The Home Secretary exercises her power to proscribe only after a thorough review of the available relevant information and evidence on an organisation. This includes open source material, intelligence material and advice that reflects consultation across government, including with the intelligence and law enforcement agencies. The cross-government Proscription Review Group supports the Home Secretary in this decision-making process. As I am sure noble Lords are aware, a decision to proscribe is taken only after great care and consideration of the particular case, and it is therefore appropriate that it must be approved by both Houses. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister said, this is the 20th proscription order that your Lordships’ House has debated; I think that it is the 11th that I have responded to. I think it is fair that I say at that outset that we support the order and the proscription of these four organisations. The Minister will know—he acknowledged—that we brought in the legislation in 2000. It is clear in that legislation and from his comments today that any proscription order has to be backed by evidence. I am very grateful to him for providing the information that he has today because, as the Opposition, we do not have access to the kind of intelligence information that the Government have. There is always an element of trust when we look at these issues and we have to be confident that the Government would not have brought this order before us today unless they were confident that there was a case for proscribing the organisations. I think that he has made that case; we accept, on trust, that the intelligence information is available and we support these proscriptions.

Reading the speeches in the House of Commons yesterday and hearing the Minister’s comments today, I think that part of the evidence is in these organisations’ own words. They almost boast; they claim responsibility for their activities and they damn themselves by what they say. I have a couple of questions that would help me understand and clarify some aspects of this. When we proscribe organisations, we cannot act alone; we work with and support the international community. Our borders are not such that terrorism will not cross them. This sort of terrorism knows no boundaries, particularly with the kind of technology that we have these days, where it is very easy to move money and share information. We can really only be effective in the fight—not just against terrorism but against serious organised crime—if we work internationally.

I was pleased when the Minister, when referring to both TIP and MIT, said that both the UN and USA have banned such organisations, but can he say more about that and when that was? On a previous order, I was concerned that other countries had taken action two or three years before we had. If we are to be effective against terrorism, we need to share the information that we have and act together with other countries, so can he say what other countries, other than the USA—and the UN—have taken action against these organisations and when it was taken? In particular regarding the Global Islamic Media Front, most of its propaganda was translated into German; in fact, more is translated into German than into English. It would be useful to know if the German Government are also taking similar action against it.

Given that we are now negotiating for Brexit and we have a new Minister in charge of those negotiations, I am concerned about how such a move will impact on our negotiations, our discussions, our sharing of information and our co-operation with other European countries. Can the Minister take back the message today that the issue of the country’s security has to be at a very high level in any discussions and negotiations on Brexit? Having gone through the various debates that we had in your Lordships’ House about the police and criminal justice measures—which the previous coalition Government opted out of before opting back in to almost everything that was relevant, being used or was not extinct—it struck me how important that co-operation and work with the EU was. It would be helpful if the Minister can give his assurance that he will draw this to the attention of the new Minister and ensure that this is at the heart of our discussions and negotiations in Europe.

The orders are effective, I think, from the moment that we agree them. Is the Minister aware of the Twitter account—I checked today that it was still active—@Jihadology_Net? At least two of these organisations have their actions and their proclamations advertised on that Twitter account. It claims to be an academic website—it is academic only in the sense that it provides information. It actually promotes these two organisations and others that carry out atrocities. Do these organisations have to be proscribed before any action can be taken, or can that account be closed down sooner, because it promotes activities that most of us would regard as totally abhorrent? It may claim that it is merely reporting but, given its title and from looking at the content, I think that it goes beyond that. I would be very grateful if the Minister could look at that even if he cannot respond today.

I raised my next point when we considered previous proscription orders. In 2009 when I was in the other place, the previous Prime Minister, David Cameron, made several references in the House of Commons to Hizb ut-Tahrir. He taunted his predecessor, Gordon Brown, by saying that the organisation must be banned immediately. It was a commitment in the Conservative manifesto that Hizb ut-Tahrir would be banned. That has not happened. What is the reason? I assume that the evidence is not there, but I also assume that a leader of the Opposition would not make such claims or put it in a party manifesto unless there was some evidence that the organisation should be banned. The impression was given that it would be banned immediately but it has not been. If it is merely a question of evidence not being available and it was incorrect to say it should be banned, it would be helpful to know. In the current climate, we need such reassurance.

That brings me to my final point. Can the Minister give an assurance that evidence is always kept under review? There has been one case when an organisation that had been proscribed applied to be deproscribed, if that is the correct word, and it took some time to resolve. We know that there are groups which should be proscribed in the future, but it is a question of gathering evidence. If the Minister can say something about the review process, that would be helpful.

These are merely matters of clarification, and we support the order.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her support for this order and for her customary expertise. These issues are extremely sensitive and extremely important to tackle. The unity of purpose and action that is shown across both Houses and all Benches is extremely important when it comes to standing up to this global threat.

The noble Baroness mentioned the @jihadology.net Twitter account. I have made a note of it and will take it back to the Home Office. We are making great strides in working very closely and in partnership with internet service providers and social media companies. There is a great deal of collaboration taking place internationally as well, a point that the noble Baroness made. It is important that these websites, Twitter accounts and social media accounts are closed down as soon as possible. Their impact is immense; they can only be live for a few minutes and their reach is global. We successfully took action when we co-operated with social media on issues such as sexual violence against women. There is a great deal of work going on in this respect.

The noble Baroness spoke of our departure from the European Union. As I am sure she will know, the former Home Secretary, now our new Prime Minister, has been very particular in ensuring that issues of security are paramount in our discussions. We will continue to work very closely with partners on a global level. I am sure that that will be the case as we leave the European Union but continue to co-operate with our European neighbours because this is a global issue. Indeed, my current brief in the Home Office of countering extremism takes this issue further. We welcome the co-operation we have had from our European neighbours but also at a global level in fighting the challenge of extremism. We will continue to put the security and safety of our citizens at the forefront of all discussions.

The noble Baroness referred to the Global Islamic Media Front and when other countries may have proscribed it. I will write to her regarding which countries proscribed that organisation and when. I have already talked about the UN.

The noble Baroness referred to Hizb ut-Tahrir. I am sure that we all agree that, while not currently proscribed in the UK, the organisation has at its heart evil practice. It believes in dividing societies and communities. Under the current rules of proscription, as the noble Baroness will be well aware from her own time in government, a group has to fulfil the defined criteria. Of course, the Government have significant concerns. The noble Baroness asked about issues of review. I assure her that we continue to monitor all activities, not just of HUT but other organisations, on a regular basis. We will seek to ensure that HUT and other groups like it cannot operate without challenge in public spaces in this country. We will also ensure that civic society is made aware of HUT and groups like it.

Finally, there has been some discussion in the Home Office about organisations and individuals who operate within the parameters of the current law and stay legal—but only just. It is right that we work in a collaborative manner to see how we can starve individuals and organisations of oxygen. They may not be proscribed as terrorist groups or may not support terrorist groups but nevertheless they are focused on encouraging hate and division in society. We continue to work on how best we can bring forward measures to address those issues. I will reply specifically to the noble Baroness on the matter she raised about Germany and the GIMF. I commend the order to the House.

Railways: Southern, Southeastern and Thameslink Franchises

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure my noble friend that the delays are not down to his presence on the platform, as he brings to our attention the delays that we are seeing on these lines. As I have already said, the Government are committed both to holding those operating these franchises to account and to ensuring that, yes, there is greater investment. That is why the Government have committed to the investment of more than £1 billion in the improvements at London Bridge and beyond, and we are committed to ensure that by 2018 these improvements are felt by commuters. He is quite right to point out that the current service is not good enough.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

As one of those weekly commuters from Bognor Regis to Westminster, I also have my tale to tell. I only just made it in on time on Monday, having sat on three separate trains before one left the station, and along with other commuters was shunted from one platform to another three times just to get on a train that worked. Go-Ahead, the parent company that owns the franchise, reported an increase in profits of more than 30% last year. Can the Minister tell us why this money is not being invested to improve services for passengers but instead is going into shareholders’ pockets?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Investment is going into these franchises. There are three new fleets of electric trains, which will see an overall increase of 50% in capacity. Within the wider franchise, new trains will be introduced on the Gatwick Express later this year. But the noble Baroness is quite right to point out that the challenges remain. As I have already assured the House, the Government are working very closely not just with those who are operating these franchises but the Office of Rail Regulation to ensure that the challenges are met and the franchisees are held accountable.

Child Abuse

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Tuesday 15th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble and learned Baroness speaks with great experience and expertise on this subject. Therefore, I am sure all noble Lords will join me in expressing great sadness that she has chosen to step down from the role for which she was selected, although we all appreciate the reasons why she did so. The Government fully recognise her ability in this regard. Certainly, it was the view of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary that she should remain the chairman of this important inquiry. Turning to the substance of her remarks, I totally share the concerns she has raised. This is not just about looking backwards but is about ensuring that in the future we protect children in all facets of society. The important element is that we engage fully in this area, that no stone is left unturned historically and that no person feels that they are vulnerable to sexual abuse tomorrow. This is an abhorrent crime and the sooner we eradicate it from our society, the better. I am sure all noble Lords share that sentiment.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we on this side of the House share those concerns. Noble Lords will recall that last Monday I raised our concern that there has been a 75% drop-off in the number of people added to the list of those barred from working with children and vulnerable adults. Last year, there were nearly 6,500 referrals to the Disclosure and Barring Service on the ground of suspicious behaviour, the majority of which came from local authorities, yet only 165 people were barred from working with children. Why are so few referrals being acted on? In the light of evidence that so many abusers go undetected, will the Government review and reconsider the changes made to the vetting and barring system?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness raises an important point about these predators—there is no better word for it—who are sometimes undetected or sometimes are detected but action on them is not followed through. When researching this Question, I was startled by some of the statistics, including that of the 16,500 children currently at high risk of child sexual exploitation. The Government intend to pursue the very points the noble Baroness has raised through the inquiry panel that has been set up to look at these elements to ensure that, as I have said, this abhorrent crime is preventing from occurring in the future.

Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (Amendment) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 31st March 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank both the noble Baronesses for their contributions. While brevity was the call of the day in the contribution by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the point was made very well that whatever policy we pursue, we want to ensure that we have the desired effect. One of the deep concerns which emerged, and which is behind the Government’s proposal, was the concern over London or the UK becoming a hub. That is not least because, when we are working alongside our European partners, some would perhaps argue that other countries across Europe, Holland being one of them, which have more liberal policies in these matters than we do have already implemented such bans.

I think the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised the issue of changes in the pattern. One of the latest figures that we have seen for trafficking evidence is that between January and March 2014 there were 17 seizures of khat. Eleven and a half tonnes of khat were seized while being taken from the UK to France, en route to other countries. While it is just a small window, there has been a change, and I share those statistics with the Committee.

The decision to control khat under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and to adopt an escalation framework for policing khat possession offences was the outcome of a long and thorough consultation process. For the benefit of the Committee, this included research and inquiries into community perceptions and international evidence, which were led and published by the Government and then of course shared with the ACMD, and the ACMD’s own public evidence-gathering sessions and fact-finding visits about community concerns in England and Wales. I will come to some of the specific questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised.

The Home Secretary has made clear that the Government’s decision was finely balanced, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, also acknowledged. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary also made clear that we do not dispute the ACMD’s scientific assessment of evidence on harms. The working protocol with the ACMD recognises the broader policy factors that the Government have had to consider alongside all available evidence on medical and social harms to inform drug control and classification decisions. The ACMD’s advice helped us to understand the complexity of issues surrounding khat which, in some communities, required our most careful attention.

Beyond the control of khat, we have responded positively to the ACMD’s recommendations on health and community-based interventions that we need to support and that can be tailored to meet local needs. Indeed, that was one of the concerns the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised. Public Health England has updated its joint strategic needs assessment guidance for local public health commissioners to this effect. It will advise them with reference to the ACMD’s recommendations and support providers to take appropriate action in centres of khat use, including preparations for a potential influx of khat users and their families once they find that the drug is no longer available.

The Alcohol and Drug Education and Prevention Information Service provides a tool kit for schools to meet local needs, which will include khat where necessary. The Government have also planned communications activity, including targeted community messaging in the lead-up to the control of khat and afterwards. Khat factsheets have been prepared for local organisations and front-line staff to communicate to users and their families the potential harms of khat, the implications of the law change and where to find locally available support. These factsheets will be made available in four key languages in addition to English: Arabic, Amharic, Somali and Swahili.

This co-ordinated response will support the delivery of our drug strategy aims in these communities to protect the public from drug harms, support dependent and vulnerable users into recovery, and support integration. The Government are fully committed to providing support to anyone who needs it to lead a drug-free life, and to promoting equality of chances among all our communities and citizens, regardless of background.

Law enforcement was another issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. The law enforcement response has been developed taking into account the localised and international nature of the khat trade. Law enforcement activity will start at our borders, due to the trade’s heavy reliance on airfreight and rapid transportation to the point of sale. It will then be for police forces to deal with any residual activity involving khat where there is a local issue. Our escalation policy and targeted messaging aim to reduce the risk of criminalising small groups of individuals by providing opportunities for local agencies to work with vulnerable users and their families in a sensitive and proportionate manner. Information about local support services will be more readily available.

Before I finish this section, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about the support being given to police and what plans are in place. There is national police guidance in the khat possession for personal use intervention framework, which was produced in January 2014. If she has not yet seen a copy of that, I will be happy to provide it to her. She raised issues about the equality statement and Ministers’ knowledge. Ministers were aware of the equality statement and were fully involved with it, but it was signed off by a senior civil servant.

On social harms enforcement, these harms are quite difficult to assess in certain respects—which I suppose applies to any drug, but it is particularly true of khat. We recognise that there is a need for close monitoring. In that regard, perhaps I may turn to some of the specific questions on this issue raised by the noble Baroness. On reviews, as recommended by the ACMD, we will continue to monitor the situation on khat, as we do with all other banned drugs. We recognise the need to review the outcomes of policies specific to khat in local communities, in addition to the collation of local and national data on prevalence, treatment and seizures, as we do with other drugs.

Nationally, we have reintroduced a question on khat use in the Crime Survey for England and Wales and will create a khat-specific offence recording code to monitor local law enforcement and criminal justice agencies’ response to khat-related offences. The noble Baroness referred to the use of stop-and-search powers. As was announced by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary last summer, we will keep the use of stop-and-search powers, which are used too frequently in the Government’s opinion, under constant review.

On the law enforcement response, I have already alluded to the national policing guidance. This has been developed specifically for khat and will ensure that the police response to possession offences is consistent, proportionate and—most importantly—sensitive to local issues and community relations, which was another concern expressed by the noble Baroness. Warnings issued by police will be recorded locally and penalty notices for disorder will be available nationally. It is our belief that the combination of our escalation policy and communications activity will help to reduce the risk of criminalising users by providing opportunities for local agencies to work together to signpost vulnerable users and their families to available support services.

On health and education—another concern raised by the noble Baroness—Public Health England will, first, share and promote effective partnership working among local agencies responding to khat-related concerns; secondly, highlight the need to tailor drug prevention initiatives where appropriate; and, thirdly, continue to use the Alcohol and Drug Education and Prevention Information Service toolkit for schools to meet local needs, which may include needs in relation to khat. In its letter to the Home Secretary, the UK Somali network stated:

“As community leaders we have been in discussion with Local Authorities, Health Bodies and the Metropolitan Police Service to reduce any disruptions to society and with further guidance and support from all Government agencies, we will put in the necessary framework or safety net for the most vulnerable that require treatment and prevention at the local level”.

We know that this is already happening effectively with local authorities at a local level.

The noble Baroness also asked about the wider, international concerns relating to specific countries, including Kenya in particular. We will of course communicate UK khat policy updates throughout all our international posts. With regard to Kenya, the Home Secretary has set out the Government’s response to the Home Affairs Select Committee’s report on khat, including the concern raised about the potential impact of a UK khat ban on the Meru region’s khat industry. We of course appreciate the associated concerns that have been raised about livelihoods, and that is why the UK continues and will continue to deliver a number of projects in Meru county throughout the Kenya market access programme, which is intended to better enable low-income households to participate in a range of value-added markets. For example, this programme currently supports work on aquaculture, livestock and improving the productivity of agricultural communities in Kenya. The Government are also considering how best to improve the commercialisation of rangelands, including through supporting investment in the livestock value chain, tourism and leisure, as well as in other value-added markets. It is our belief that through these objectives and working together with the Kenyans we will achieve the objective of lifting some of the poorest Kenyans out of poverty and providing Kenya with an exit from aid.

I trust that I have answered most of the questions. It is notable that the noble Baroness rightly raised some specific issues about communities that are impacted by khat, the Somali community in particular. Perhaps I may share a quote from Mohamed Ibrahim, who is chair of the London Somali Youth Forum, in his letter to the Home Secretary in July 2013. He wrote:

“I would like to inform the Government that Somali youths, community/mothers and professionals are fully behind such ban, because this about unlocking their potential as citizens, removing barriers to progress”.

I assure noble Lords that we will continue to monitor the situation in the UK, which will help to develop the evidence base for future research into understanding the links between khat use and its associated harms, as the ACMD has recommended.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the Minister, who has made every effort to address the points that I raised. He is right—this is a finely balanced decision. I am a bit disappointed with some of his answers. I know he made an effort to address them, but I raised specific points that were not out of the blue because I spoke to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and his office last week. There have also been discussions over the weekend between my colleagues in the other place and the Government. I would like to consider further the points that the noble Lord has made. The implementation of this measure is so important. When something is finely balanced, the implementation has to be very sensitive, and he has not been able to satisfy me on my specific points about the review or about policing. I should like to consider whether a further debate on the Floor of the House is needed, but I am grateful for the noble Lord’s efforts to address a number of the points I raised.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Ketamine etc.) (Amendment) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 31st March 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation and to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for the expertise that she brings to this issue. I assume that when she said that the advisory committee to the sub-committee on the misuse of drugs was split on this issue, the kinds of issues that she was raising were ones that caused the concern. I would be interested in the Minister’s comments on this one.

With such a serious subject, it is a moment of light relief to enjoy the Minister’s pronunciations of the drugs involved. It is one of those rare occasions when I am grateful that I am not the Minister so I do not have to worry about the pronunciations. But the harms of ketamine and the other drugs have been recognised and are alarming. Successive drugs surveys over the past five years have shown that ketamine in particular has become established as a drug of choice for those who go clubbing and for recreational use, and many of those people will have little idea or knowledge of the dangers they face.

There is not really any strong evidence that reclassification will have any great impact on the prevalence of those drugs, and I am concerned about the public health campaigns that are needed. Very clear messaging needs to go out, and it needs to start in school. Recreational drug users in clubs are more discerning than those who are addicted to drugs, and other more vulnerable users, and are therefore more susceptible to such messages because they are legal-high users. If you have spoken to parents who have lost children, or whose children have been harmed or damaged by recreational drug use, you will know that the messaging needs to be much stronger and much better than it is at the moment. There is a danger that the Government will step back a bit and not take a sufficiently proactive role in this regard to prevent the harms taking hold of a number of young people.

I want to press the Minister on a couple of things. One is the FRANK website. Whenever I raised these issues previously, Ministers always told me, “Ah, we’ve got the FRANK website”. How effective is it? It seems to me that for someone to look at the FRANK website, they have to be interested in the first place and want to understand what is involved. We need to be reassured of its effectiveness. We have to aim further than those who seek out the site because clearly it does not have a wide enough reach. We are not reaching too many of the people who are recreational drug users and who go to clubs and raves but do not understand the harm they are causing themselves. I would like to hear some more not just about the FRANK website but about targeting recreational drug users.

We do not oppose this order because we recognise that there are very serious harms. In relation to ketamine, the Explanatory Memorandum talks about the,

“intense detachment that can be unpleasant and frightening and can put the user in a position of vulnerability to robbery, assault or rape”.

It is not just the harm that the drug causes but the harm that is caused to the person who becomes detached and dissociated from their surroundings and therefore particularly vulnerable. There are those who are making significant amounts of money out of causing this harm to others, but I also take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay: I am sure that the Government do not want to cause problems for those who require drugs such as ketamine for pain control or other medical purposes. If the noble Lord can give us an assurance in that regard, or even tell us that he will take this away and come back to us, that will be extremely helpful. We do not oppose this order and I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I thank both noble Baronesses and the Deputy Chairman for their kind words. It is always a challenge when you are looking to pronounce words that you are not familiar with. With two young children, now I know the challenges they face—if nothing else, it has taught me greater patience in helping them with their reading skills. Nevertheless, I thank the noble Baronesses for their broad support of the Government’s position, and the Committee more widely. I trust that, as both noble Baronesses acknowledged, the Government have made the case for the order to be approved in the House on the basis of the latest available evidence and the ACMD’s advice.

Approval of this order will ensure that our drug laws are effective in relation to both established medicines and newly developed pharmaceutical drugs entering the UK market that are being sought for misuse. It will also ensure that we are taking effective action on compounds that have no legitimate use outside research and which are already being pushed on to the legal-highs market.

From having done a debate on the issue of legal highs previously in the House, I think that everyone, no matter where they are in the argument, is cognisant of the fact that for anything that is banned today there will be a derivative ready and on the shelves tomorrow. This is something on which we need to be increasingly vigilant. We will of course ensure that those drugs that have a legitimate use in healthcare and veterinary practice continue to be available under a regulatory framework which protects the public from their potential harms.

Before I turn specifically to the questions that were raised by the noble Baronesses, I commend the ACMD for its continuous work and support of our priorities, including on new psychoactive substances. I have already mentioned that the fast pace of the new psychoactive market continues to require us to be ever more careful with the prioritisation of our resources, and underscores the need for closer working within a broader network of partners in the UK and abroad, and the need to preserve the integrity of our drug laws. The ACMD’s advice also reminds us of the dangers of prescription medicine when misused.

I turn to some of the questions that were raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, speaks with great expertise in these areas. I listened carefully to the issues that she raised. On reclassifying ketamine, as noble Lords are aware, ketamine is already controlled and scheduled, and therefore available for legitimate use in healthcare. As a result, we are able to reclassify it without impacting on its availability for legitimate use. By reclassifying at the earliest opportunity, the Government are sending out a strong message to those who misuse the drug. I assure the noble Baroness that a final decision on scheduling will be made after a public consultation to assess the impact of its schedule 2 status, as recommended by the ACMD.

The noble Baroness asked about other issues relating to its availability. The ACMD has recommended that this subject be subject to a public consultation to assess the impact should ketamine be scheduled, as I have said. As such, ketamine will continue to remain a schedule 4 part 1 drug until a final decision is made on the schedule in which it will be placed following the public consultation.

The noble Baroness made some valid points on availability and the issue of the licensing fee, particularly for hospices. Anyone who has experienced, sometimes sadly and tragically, the absolutely sterling work that hospices do will know that, while it involves great personal tragedy for a lot of the families involved, the role of hospices in the lives of those who are perhaps at their final point is quite incredible. The Government are cognisant of the incredible role they play in community and society. I therefore say to the noble Baroness that licensing requirements will come into play only after rescheduling. I have already mentioned that in the context of the public consultation. On ketamine, I will look at Hansard again to see whether there are any outstanding questions.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that that is very much the case. However, I will counter the noble Baroness’s suggestion by asking her, if she is aware of the names of those bodies, to please forward them, and I shall ensure that officials include them in the official notice of consultation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised a couple of questions about talking to FRANK. I remember that when I first came across this website in local government, my first question was, “Who’s Frank?”, because he seemed to know an awful lot. Of course, FRANK is the website used to share information. The noble Baroness makes a valid point about ensuring that the support and information that is available should not be restricted to just one particular website. Whether we are talking about institutes of higher education or about clubs et cetera—wherever drugs may be used for recreational use—it is important that people are informed about the availability of this website. I have taken on board a couple of suggestions that the noble Baroness made. I also say to her that drugs education is part of the science national curriculum at key stages 2 and 3. Provision in this area can be built also through personal, social, health and economic discussions. The Talk to Frank website was relaunched. More than 35 million people have now used it and millions have called the FRANK helpline.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

The Minister said that 35 million people have used the website. Is that 35 million individual users, or have there been 35 million occasions on which somebody has looked at the site?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I would suggest that it is the latter: it refers to hits on the website. The noble Baroness’s point is well made and I understand it.

The noble Baroness made some very practical suggestions. I think that we are all at one in believing that we need to tackle the misuse of drugs. If so-called “legal highs” are still available on the market, they should be made available in an orderly fashion. Wherever information can be shared, it should be shared as widely as possible through the healthcare system and any other social support system—the FRANK website is one such example. If there are suggestions as to where other tools can be used to ensure that we make this information more readily available, I am sure that we would all welcome them in terms of sharing best practice. As I said in my opening remarks, when I was in local government we encouraged the sharing of information through local healthcare providers and the local healthcare system to ensure that information was available to all.

Finally, on the new psychoactive substances review, the Government are conscious that more needs to be done to tackle the emergence of new psychoactive substances. This is why my honourable friend the Minister for Crime Prevention is leading a review by an expert panel on how the UK’s response to new psychoactive substances can be enhanced beyond the existing measures. The expert panel’s primary purpose is to look at how the current legislative framework can be strengthened, as well as at the health and educational aspects of the challenges that we face. The expert panel is expected to report its findings to Ministers in late spring.

I thank both noble Baronesses who participated in this debate for their broad support. They have both made useful suggestions on how we can move this forward. I hope that noble Lords will find that this legislative measure is conducive to ensuring that the public are protected as much possible from the harm caused by drugs that can be dangerous when misused. I commend the order to the Committee.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 25th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can be brief with this group of government amendments which implement the recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in respect of certain of the delegated powers in Parts 1, 4 and 5 of the Bill. The amendments to Clauses 55, 56 and 57 are worthy of particular comment. The Delegated Powers Committee argued that, in relation to the public spaces protection orders, the current provisions in the Bill requiring a local authority to consult with the chief officer of police and community representatives was too narrow given the potential impact of such orders. The committee further argued that there should be a general duty to publicise the intention to make a notice. We are happy to accept the point made by the committee. The amendments to Clause 55 therefore require a local authority to publicise its intention to make an order so as to allow persons affected to make representations. In the normal way, a local authority would be bound to consider any such representations before making an order. This process is also replicated where the local authority plans to extend, vary or discharge an existing order by the amendments to Clauses 56 and 57 respectively. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I was a bit slow on to my feet; I suspected that there may be other noble Lords wishing to speak on this.

The noble Lord will recall that these are the amendments over which I last week raised our concerns about their being tabled late. The anticipation was that they would be debated the day after they were laid, so I am pleased that we have had a gap and welcome the opportunity to look at them more closely.

The amendments to Clause 55 are in response, as the noble Lord has said, to recommendations from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Government had tried to confer a wide-ranging and significant power on local authorities to control the ways in which public spaces are used without any requirement to publicise the public spaces protection order before it was made. We agree with the committee that that would have been inappropriate delegation of powers. I am pleased that the Government have tabled the amendment, which would require a local authority to publish the text of the proposed order, if I understand it correctly, or an extension in duration of an existing order, or any variation in a public spaces protection order. It adds clarity, which I welcome, but there are still concerns about the amended clause that will need to be addressed later in passage of the Bill.

As the noble Lord said, government Amendments 56ADA and 56ADB on orders relating to the Housing Act—those on absolute grounds for possession of anti-social behaviour—and government Amendment 100 about the granting of injunctions will ensure that those elements are subject to the affirmative procedure. We have serious concerns about these proposals. The amendments at least provide for a greater degree of accountability of the legislative process and add greater scrutiny to these powers, which we find deeply flawed. There are loopholes and my noble friend Lord Rosser will be speaking to those in the course of today’s debate.

I will give one example. Clause 4 specifies the bodies which are authorised to apply under Clause 1 for an injunction against a person to prevent them engaging in conduct capable of causing nuisance and annoyance. Subsection (5) of that clause will enable changes to be made to bodies and persons who are authorised to apply for an injunction under Clause 1, including making changes to the circumstances in which a body may make such an application. The Government’s view has been challenged, and I think they now accept this: it is not a general power to amend but is restricted to adding persons who may apply for an anti-social behaviour order under Section 1 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.

The Delegated Powers Committee said that the Home Office’s explanation does not take account of the different nature of an anti-social behaviour order from an injunction under Clause 1, including the different tests to be applied in each case when determining an application. As a result, the Government have now tabled amendments whereby this would now rightly be subject to an affirmative procedure, which is much more appropriate.

Government Amendments 56ADA and 56ADB relate to subsections (10) and (11) of Section 84A of the Housing Act 1985. One of the conditions that, if met, could be used to trigger repossession proceedings, is that the tenant,

“or a person living in or”,

even,

“visiting the dwelling, has been convicted of a ‘serious offence’; and that offence was committed in the locality of the dwelling, against a person who lives in the locality, or against the landlord or a person employed in connection with the landlord’s housing management functions”.

The Delegated Powers Committee stated that,

“the scope of the power is not limited in any way, but simply allows the addition or removal of any indictable offence. In our view, this is a significant Henry VIII power, since the way in which it is exercised will have a direct effect on the circumstances in which a court will be required to order possession”.

Therefore we certainly agree with the government amendment that it is more appropriate that these amendments subject this process to the affirmative procedure. Obviously, the repossession process can have a hugely detrimental impact on people’s lives, and as such, any such power introduced by the Government must be monitored closely. Noble Lords have to be aware that we have serious concerns about that policy. My noble friend Lord Rosser will speak about that in more depth when we come to our debate on Clauses 86 and 89 stand part.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

As a point of clarification, I am fully aware that it is not three years in every case—it is up to three years. However, one of my concerns is that, because of the cost of renewal and the uncertainties around that, a number of local authorities may think that three years has become the default. It will be easier for them to run to the maximum of three years rather than face the bureaucracy and costs of renewal by doing otherwise.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. In doing so I make the general point that sometimes in debates such as this you hear some noble Lords saying that the period is too long and others saying that it is too short, and so going down the middle is normally the solution. The noble Baroness talked about perfection. Dare I say that, perhaps on this clause, we are as near to that as we can be? I will address the amendments and the questions as far as I can but I hope, as I always do with the noble Baroness opposite, that she will gain some reassurance from what I say, if not from my words then at least from my tone.

These amendments relate to the process of reviewing and extending public spaces protection orders, as we have heard. As noble Lords are aware, there is currently no statutory review point for the orders we are replacing and they can run indefinitely. The argument has been made about where we are today. Putting in a limit is a positive way forward, otherwise—to quote the noble Baroness’s words back at her—these orders run on and on. It is important to look at how they should be reviewed. I believe that there should be a formal review point, which we have decided to set at three years.

The effect of Amendments 41B and 44A, which stand in my noble friend’s name, would of course be to limit this to 12 months. I have listened to the arguments that she put forward. As we have made clear in the guidance, orders do not have to last for three years—a point just made by the noble and learned Lord. There is flexibility within this, according to the circumstance and the situation and at the discretion of the issuing authority, including the local authority, as to what is appropriate. If appropriate, these can be reviewed or discharged before three years have elapsed. My view is more qualified and endorsed after listening to the debate and I believe that three years is a proportionate balance between the needs of users and the protection of the community, especially given the everlasting orders that we are seeking to replace.

Amendments 44B and 49A—which I take to be an alternative to Amendments 41B and 44A—would ensure that orders could not be extended more than once. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, raised the specific point that the legislation allows only for renewal. I am sure that he has reflected on Clause 56; there are provisions specifically to allow for the recurrence of a renewal of an order. He is nodding so I am sure that he agrees with the point I am making.

Of course, there are situations in which longer-term restrictions could be necessary; for example, as I am sure my noble friend is aware, these orders will replace, among other things, dog control orders, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said. This means that a public spaces protection order will be required, as a dog control order is now, to ensure that the fouling of public land is dealt with. I am sure that my noble friend will agree that this is not a problem that can be fixed in three or indeed six years and an ongoing restriction is therefore required. As such, preventing the further renewal of orders would mean communities having to put up with dog mess as well as other potentially anti-social behaviours, such as public drinking.

Turning to Amendment 48, my noble friend will be aware that the orders being replaced by the public spaces protection order do not include a formal review and, as such, can last indefinitely. In reforming the powers, we believed that it was only right that a statutory timeframe was built in, and I am sure that my noble friend will welcome that in principle. As the legislation states, the review should be conducted every three years.

Of course, I understand the concerns raised by my noble friend about the potential impact of a three-year restriction if applied to all orders but, as I have already said, the legislation is clear that councils can limit the duration of an order to a period of less than three years. Indeed, as the draft guidance suggests, in a situation where a public right of way is being closed for the first time to try to deal with a specific issue, the council may well prefer to review this after a shorter period of time.

To make this amendment would mean that all orders covering rights of way would have to be reviewed every six months. This would include, as I have already mentioned, welcome restrictions to deal with dog fouling and the consumption of alcohol. This would turn the new power into a bureaucratic nightmare that resulted in councils that decided to use it living in a loop of constant consultation and review. As I have said before, in my own experience as a local councillor for 10 years, consultations were regularly part and parcel of our decision-making, but if we had to issue an order and then immediately start another consultation, I fear that we would be constantly in consultation mode.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I take on board what my noble friend is saying. That is why I believe that, as the clauses are drafted, there is flexibility with regard to the circumstances, the situation and indeed the tenure appropriate to the offence that is being perceived. I have already flagged up that in this instance, if an issue arose for the first time, the local authority may well be minded to apply an order of smaller duration to allow for exactly the kind of review and assessment that my noble friend is suggesting. I understand the point my noble friend makes and, as I have said, it probably refers more to the restricting of access than anything else. I have listened and we will consider how to make the guidance more specific in this regard.

Finally, Amendment 55A relates to appeals against public spaces protection orders. My noble friend has asked for clarification of whether there is a right of appeal against the extension of an order. That is a fair point. The amendment would provide an additional opportunity to challenge an order every time it was extended. This could result in additional appeals, even if the circumstances had not otherwise changed. That said, my noble friend has raised an important point and I will take it away and reflect further on it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked if I could predict the number of orders and renewals. Crystal balls are hard to come by and the important thing we are seeking to do here is to ensure that the orders are specific, time-limited and can be reviewed. Again, if the behaviour has been corrected, the order does not need to stay in place for ever. That is an important point to bear in mind. How often are we expecting the orders to be renewed? That is very much up to the local authorities to decide. One order can cover more than one behaviour with a shorter consultation process, so there is less paperwork, less bureaucracy and less delay. Reviews can be quite light-touch, so one review may be more intensive than another. It would be almost impossible to give a cost for each review.

We should not forget that there is an absolute need for democratic accountability for the continued operation of these orders. The Government feel that the balance has been struck. The noble Baroness talked about the Ramblers and Battersea Dogs and Cats Home. Perhaps she would like to respond and tell me whether she believes that what we are seeking to do in Clause 56 is appropriate, because the current situation means that there is no time limit. We are seeking to ensure three years, with the possibility to review, and a three-year period is allowed for only if the local authority chooses to persist with that; if it chooses to put one year down, that is its prerogative.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

The noble Lord invites me to say whether I think it is a good idea. The way to find that out is to review the operation after a couple of years. I am not really satisfied that saying that because some people want one year and some people want it for ever, if we find the middle number that is the right way to go. That does not address specific circumstances but I thank him for trying to answer my questions. He missed one: I asked what assessment had been made of why these were needed and what demand there was. Who has called for these changes to be made and have one order covering all three issues?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I hope I have illustrated that there is a need to decrease bureaucracy when you take three and turn it into one. Coming back to a point that the noble Baroness raised about enforcement, it makes that much easier. Certainly, my own experience in local government substantiates that. I am sure other noble Lords may share that experience.

It is right and proper that these orders should be regularly reviewed. The noble Baroness asks what evidence there is and why we have taken this route. The Government believe it is right to devolve these decisions to the people who are on the coalface, so to speak: the local authorities, the people who are closest to circumstances at a local level. I hope that I can share my own experience but also that of anyone who has served in a local authority. The last thing you need is central government or a central diktat telling you what is appropriate for your local area.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I would comment briefly that having looked at these amendments, Amendment 22QA seems to be a particularly reasonable and sensible way forward. If you think of the local authority as being at the centre of its place—not just part of the local council but managing the area—it seems very reasonable and sensible. This is perhaps a case, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and my noble friend Lord Harris said earlier, of wanting the parts of the Bill that are useful to work. This may well assist the Government in ensuring that the clause is effective.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, Amendments 22NC and 22QA are proposed by my noble friend to change the process at the point where a community protection notice is issued. Currently, when issuing a community protection notice, an authorised person—be that a police officer, an officer of a local authority or a person that the local authority has designated, such as a social landlord—would have to inform any body or individual that the person issuing the notice thinks appropriate. Amendment 22NC seeks to remove this requirement.

Amendment 22QA, in my noble friend’s name, then seeks to impose a requirement that an authorised person who is not the local authority must inform the relevant local authority of its issuing of a notice. I recognise that it is important that a local authority is aware that community protection notices are in operation in its area but, conversely, it is also important, as I am sure noble Lords will agree, that local authorities notify the police. The reality is that police and local authorities will be working together to tackle local anti-social behaviour and therefore it is not necessary to put into the Bill the requirement to inform the local authority. The existing provision in Clause 40(6) states that the authorising officer “must … inform” any appropriate individual or body of the issue of a community protection notice, and it is difficult to imagine any case where the relevant local authority would fall outside the definition of “appropriate”. I do not think it necessary to specify that the local authority must be informed.

However, there may well be others whom it would be appropriate to inform as well. As I have suggested, the police will often have an interest. I fear that the effect of my noble friend’s amendments would be to restrict the requirement to informing the local authority only.

Our guidance for front-line professionals states clearly that, where a community protection notice is being issued, there is clear merit,

“in involving the local council, which will have many years of experience in tackling environmental issues, when deciding whether or not to serve a CPN”.

As I and my noble friend have said on previous occasions, the guidance can be amended as we move through the parliamentary process. Of course, if there is a requirement, we can set a clearer expectation on the necessity of ensuring that the local authority is fully involved.

As an aside—I speak with some experience, although perhaps not with the same number of years’ experience as my noble friend—in my 10 years in local government, I served as both the cabinet member for the environment and then as the cabinet member for policing and community engagement. In that respect, my experience—albeit on a London council—showed that the local authority, the police and other local agencies work well on the ground, and we have faith that these agencies will continue to work well as we move forward.

Amendment 22QF concerns remedial works carried out by the local authority where there has been a breach of a community protection notice. Remedial works may be carried out if a person fails to comply with the terms of a notice served on them. The local authority may carry out the remedial work without the consent of the owner or the person who had defaulted on the notice on land “open to the air”, and Amendment 22QF would prevent this. The local authority cannot simply enter premises at will; I am sure that my noble friend knows that to be true. It must seek the “necessary consent” of the defaulter and the owner of the premises if that person is not the defaulter. However, there may be circumstances where the local authority has taken all reasonable efforts to find the owner but has not been able to do so. I do not believe that communities should continue to suffer in such circumstances, and that is why it is important that the authority is able to carry out remedial works.

I hope that my noble friend is reassured by the explanations I have given of what is behind the Government’s proposals here, and that he will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, may I raise a point about the further consideration of the Bill today? At 6.03 pm yesterday, we received quite a lengthy letter from the Minister with amendments that I am told are to be debated today. Is it appropriate to receive amendments at such late notice for debate the following day?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as with the Opposition, we have also seen all the amendments and have been working through them. They have been tabled and agreed for debate; that is the programme that is scheduled for today. I know that the noble Baroness appreciates the challenges of the number of amendments we have on this Bill, and we wish to make progress.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am sorry. I understand the need to make progress. The Minister will know from the amendments we have tabled and our contributions to this debate that we agree with him in seeking to make progress. I am, however, questioning whether it is right to table amendments and notify some Members of your Lordships’ House—not all—at 6.03 pm for debate on the following day. That seems completely inappropriate. As we are speaking, I am trying to go through all the amendments to ensure that we have a response and can fully consider them. This House prides itself on scrutiny, but this does not leave us the opportunity to scrutinise adequately these amendments tabled by the Government.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Again, I say to the noble Baroness that anyone who has been in the previous days of this Committee would not doubt for a moment that the House has been very careful in its scrutiny of the Bill. That is reflected in where we currently are in the progress of the Bill. As I said, these amendments have been tabled and we, as the Government, have looked at them. We look forward to the debate and the scrutiny that will take place of them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I believe that the clause as drafted could apply to an individual or an organisation. When we discuss that wording, it will be clarified. This applies to an individual or an organisation—which incorporates the issue raised by the noble Lord. In addition, where the use of business premises has resulted, or is likely to result, in nuisance to members of the public or disorder nearby, the new closure powers that we are introducing, to which the noble Baroness referred, will be able to close a premises immediately. The police and/or local authorities can act quickly where a business acts anti-socially. Again, breach is a criminal offence with the potential for a significant fine.

It is also worth saying that sometimes it may be a particular individual who is the root cause of the anti-social behaviour—for instance, the business owner or a store manager—and not the business as a whole. In those circumstances, the police, council or others listed in Clause 4 could apply to the court for an injunction against the individual on the test of nuisance or annoyance. Hopefully that would deal with the issue and, while breach in this case may not be a criminal offence, it could still result in a large fine or even a custodial sentence.

In putting forward this amendment, the noble Baroness said that it was a probing amendment to seek clarification. I hope that on the basis of the example I have given, by drawing the attention of noble Lords to the fact that we will be discussing this issue under Part 4 and with my explanation, she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. I am not sure whether it will be helpful to probe the matter further when we get to community protection notices, because they deal with individuals. If there is a persistent litter problem in certain premises, it would not be possible to have a community protection notice against every individual. My worry with his other proposal, the closure of premises, is that it would deal with the problem by closing the business. Often, it might be better to take preventive action with the corporate body, the business, to prevent closure and to deal with the problem, rather than to act against individuals and then, if that does not work, close the business. I am trying to find a pre-emptive way to prevent the problem rather than deal with it once it had happened. However, I am grateful to the noble Lord for taking the point seriously. Perhaps we can return to it and discuss it further when we consider community protection. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.