Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to express my concerns. It is not that I do not support the amendments or the comments made by other noble Lords, but calling these things crypto assets in an economic crime Bill, when we know that their origin seems to have been organised crime finding a way to money launder its ill-gotten rewards I find deeply troubling. A number of leading bankers, with whom I agree, have suggested that these things have no value. I urge the Government to be very alert to the potential risk of trying to make cryptocurrency—I am not talking about blockchain technology—and these so-called assets, which actually do not exist, appear to be reasonable things for British citizens to put their money into.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Fox, in his amendment to make sure we have a review point quite soon after this Bill. I acknowledge my noble friend Lady Altmann’s point about the strange context to put this in, but given that we have this Bill on the table, it would be very easy to put in a reference point because the climate for this asset is moving enormously fast. Between November 2021 and November 2022, the value of bitcoin fell by $2 trillion, which is not far short of the UK’s total annual GDP, although it has recovered a little since then. This is a vast sum of theoretical money that is swilling around, and we do not yet really understand how to manage it, so I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

Economic Update

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con) [V]]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point. I share her concern for this sector because, as she quite rightly says, it is not just about bars and clubs but our cultural heartland—theatres and everything that goes with it. I reassure her that this is very much on the Government’s mind and will be addressed as we come out of this crisis.

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on their rapid reactions but reiterate my concerns about relying so much on debt and QE to try to sustain growth. Given the extraordinary widening of wealth inequality entailed by QE asset purchases, disadvantaging the poorer, younger citizens, would the Government welcome the Bank the England now considering a people’s QE when creating further additional funds to boost growth directly, as well as contributing to levelling up rather than continuing to distort capital markets, undermine pension funding and help the wealthiest?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con) [V]]

The noble Baroness will know that the Government are not in favour of a people’s QE. The QE that has happened this year has been more effective than the QE in the 2008-09 crisis; at least in this situation the money has gone directly into our economy to solve and help the problem, whereas in 2008-09, as far as anyone has ever been able to explain it to me, at least half the money left the country. We are learning, but there is a great deal of nervousness about something such as a people’s QE, because being able to print money without any comeback is almost too good to be true. Indeed, at the weekend, I bought a book by Ray Dalio on debt crises in history to try to understand more about this, because I feel we need to be very cautious about borrowing more and more money.

Wales: Customs Sites

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, we absolutely accept that Warrington and Birmingham will be interim solutions to the challenge of having these facilities much nearer to Holyhead, and we are working at pace to deliver that.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my disappointment that it has not been possible to find a site local to Holyhead for customs checks, which clearly will be needed when shipments come in from the Republic of Ireland and could create jobs and boost the economy on Anglesey and the surrounding areas?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I am pleased to tell my noble friend that yesterday we agreed verbal heads of terms for a site on the island of Anglesey. It is not a done deal by any means, but I am confident that we will do that deal, and that it will give the answers that my noble friend is asking for.

Future of Financial Services

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks important questions. I certainly take on board her desire to try to accelerate the mandatory implementation date. I will feed that back to the Chancellor and see if it can be done. It is always a matter of balance between doing these things too quickly and being slow-footed. The TCFD is a key component of our international efforts at the G7, which we are hosting, the G20, COP 26, which the noble Baroness mentioned, and the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action. Making this announcement will mean that we can set this as an example for other countries to emulate and harmonise approaches on disclosure.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, declare my interests as set out in the register and welcome the launch of green gilts and the aim of a green recovery.

I shall ask my noble friend two questions. First, I welcome the equivalence decision that the Government have taken unilaterally, but which areas in particular will we have equivalence for, and will there be the same sort of short-notice withdrawal for equivalence as exists in the EU?

Secondly, could my noble friend clarify the welcome statement in the document released by the Chancellor about UK pension funds directing more of their capital towards our economic recovery and setting up a long-term asset fund? Utilising the money in long-term pension schemes to boost recovery directly is an excellent idea, but could we have a little more detail on the plans?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. In relation to the equivalence announcement, we are taking on board 17 equivalence rules. In the interests of brevity, I shall not go through all of them, but I shall ask that they are entered into Hansard. The point the noble Baroness makes about the early or perfunctory removal of equivalence is something we have taken on board. Indeed, other countries have expressed this as one of the EU’s problems, and it will be our intention to have a more transparent process that gives those countries the ability to respond to issues and have a more iterative dialogue.

In relation to the noble Baroness’s points on pension fund assets allocation, I touched on this yesterday in the Statement in relation to local government pension funds, and it is certainly a priority for us to try and steer some of these assets, on a low-risk basis, into infrastructure development.

Economy Update

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Viscount that we face an unprecedented storm of events, and I share his concern. On the role of the Treasury and, indeed, my other department, the Cabinet Office, we are doing a great deal to try to ameliorate some of this. For example, project speed, on which I deputise for the Chancellor, has brought together a number of initiatives to pump prime the economy—and we have published our first initiatives on that. We have a further possible 80 projects, which will be used to pump prime the economy, dealing with blockages to infrastructure, speeding up infrastructure, the commitment to building additional schools and accelerating the building of 40-odd hospitals. We have announced through the IPA some £37 billion of infrastructure, and I hope that we will announce around the time of the spending review the national infrastructure strategy, which will show further the investment that the Government are making.

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the extension of the economic and job support schemes and congratulate the Chancellor on his willingness to adopt flexibility and have the courage to change tack when the economy and public health winds changed. However, I have to say that I regret that a new lockdown was deemed necessary and believe that the damage caused to public health and the economy as a result needs to be much more thoroughly analysed.

Does my noble friend agree that the job support measures that have been introduced have been facilitated by the Bank of England’s quantitative easing policy? In combination with the job support measures, it is rather like helicopter money or people’s QE. What impact do Her Majesty’s Government expect it to have on UK defined benefit pension schemes? Would not it be better for the economy to encourage companies and pension schemes to invest directly in the economy to boost growth rather than encouraging them to buy more fixed income, as interest rates continually fall?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that QE is providing a level of financing for the interventions that the Government are taking at the moment. I think that she will understand that those interventions are having to be made extremely quickly to protect lives and livelihoods across the whole country. Long term, I absolutely agree with her that we need to get businesses to invest more in the economy. One initiative that I am exploring is to try to encourage local government pension funds to allocate a greater proportion of their investments to infrastructure; at the moment, it is a very low figure. I am sure that there is more we can do to loosen the rules without, of course, putting those pension assets at undue risk.

Covid-19: Public Wealth Investment Fund

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton [V]]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that it is an extremely important consultation. As he implies, any serious crisis such as this gives the country a chance to look beyond the normal way of dealing with problems. I am very hopeful that initiatives such as he has mentioned will be much more evident over the next few months.

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests and congratulate the Government on the establishment of the future fund. Would my noble friend consider encouraging the use of pension funds, as well as expanding the EIS and the SEIS, so that we can boost investment in smaller companies via equity, rather than debt, and increase the emphasis on social values?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton [V]]

I agree with the noble Baroness that pension funds in this country could play a much greater role in investing in early days businesses. The noble Baroness will know better than I that how we change the investment allocations that pension funds are allowed to take is a very complicated business, but I hope that we will continue to push the boundaries on that, because there is enormous potential.

Tax Avoidance

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Wednesday 29th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I take on board the noble and right reverend Lord’s points, and I would be interested to see the five criteria that he mentioned. I reiterate that the thrust of our approach has been to support businesses that are active in this country with premises and people. In a way, our approach is quite similar to that of Poland, because we require that foreign businesses have a permanent establishment here. I reassure the noble and right reverend Lord that we have taken a huge amount of action over the past 10 years to clamp down on poor tax practice.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I support the Government’s broad, sector-wide approach to helping to preserve jobs as an emergency measure, but the companies based offshore that have avoided paying taxes in the UK have in many cases made windfall profits from those at home in isolation. Echoing the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, should we not look at ways of introducing windfall taxes so that these companies contribute fairly to the taxpayer’s support for other firms that have suffered Covid-related losses as a consequence?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I think that most of us share the noble Baroness’s views on abusive tax measures by companies. Apart from all the measures that we have introduced over the past seven or eight years, we announced that we will legislate this year in a Finance Bill for 2021 to strengthen HMRC’s existing anti-avoidance powers to make it more difficult for promoters, in this case, to sidestep their obligations. We will continue to bear down wherever we can.

Economy: Update

Debate between Lord Agnew of Oulton and Baroness Altmann

Tuesday 28th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I thank the noble Baroness. On insurance, I did not hear my noble friend Lord Callanan’s response, so I do not want to conflict with what he may have said, but the key thing here is that when one takes out a general business policy, one has the option of an extension for pandemic cover. The problem is that I think most businesses did not elect to do that, so it would not be right then to impose that cover on insurers retrospectively through the route suggested by the noble Baroness.

On paying council tax rather than business rates, as I have mentioned before, we have put together a package of some 11 types of support for businesses, ranging from the very smallest to the largest, including such things as the deferral of tax liabilities. I believe that there are 1.3 million self-employed people on self-assessment. Deferring will provide that whole cohort with some £13 billion in cash flow. So a range of measures is there. It is important for noble Lords to look in the round at the support that we are offering.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

In light of my noble friend stating that record levels of debt will result from this virus, and in light of the Bank of England purchasing significant amounts of conventional gilts, might he ask his colleagues whether they are considering liaising with the DMO to issue specific gilts for pension funds which have more than £1 trillion? That could be invested in mortality or longevity gilts, CPI-linked gilts and LPI-linked gilts to assist those defined benefit schemes that have significant problems in light of the current circumstances, to match their liabilities more accurately.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My noble friend makes a very good point. It is certainly an idea that I will take back to the Treasury for further discussion. We issued war loans in both of the last world wars and it took a long time to pay them off, but it is a way of ring-fencing the efforts that we will have to deploy to bring the country back from this awful business. So I thank my noble friend for her very sound suggestion.