Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I was the Minister responsible for further and higher education for some three and a half years and I had to deal with what is now Ulster University at some length. I visited Londonderry on a number of occasions. The Magee College was formerly sponsored by the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. Ultimately, it became a campus of the University of Ulster, as it was then called. Various pressure groups were formed, including one called U for D—University for Derry—a group of local businesspeople and others who were trying to promote a more substantial campus on the site. The university authorities talked to my department and we looked at sites and various options. However, a whole range of other factors has to be taken into account.

Northern Ireland has had the highest participation rates in university education by people from disadvantaged backgrounds—in excess of 41%, the highest in the United Kingdom. However, we must remember that a very significant number of students are not able to obtain their education, simply because of the curricular availability in two universities in one Province, and a number of people will inevitably move to other locations for higher education. That is not necessarily a bad thing: people need to broaden their horizons and they cannot all be kept locally. I believe it is important to bear that in mind, but for a population of our size to have multiple universities covering the spectrum that is needed in the current circumstances is a very big ask.

The other thing to remember is that the council and authorities of the university came to me with their own plans. I went to visit the Jordanstown campus and as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said, it was absolutely clear from all the professional advice we received that the buildings were in such a condition that it was not economically feasible to modernise them. They were built in the 1960s, they were out of date and the reports were very clear that it was not possible or economically feasible to rebuild or modify them on that site. Consequently, the university decided that it wanted to push itself into the Belfast region: we are talking about a distance of eight or nine miles further towards the city centre of Belfast. My department supported it in doing that, but it was its decision, not ours—it was not forced. The council of the university and the vice-chancellor said, “This is what we want you to do for us”. We gave them the first tranche of money to start the work on their campus in York Street in Belfast, which is now in an advanced stage of construction.

To deal with the particular issue in Londonderry, there is substance to what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, says. I strongly support, as I know my colleagues in the Assembly do, the proposal for medical students to be taught up there, because there is a shortage of medical staff throughout the health system in Northern Ireland. I have referred to it many times in this Chamber and we will be doing so later, so I totally support it.

There are funding constraints, as is always the case. I also point out that it is not simply about higher education. We have rebuilt the further education estate throughout Northern Ireland—it has been a herculean task. That was ongoing, and we must remember that not everything can be confined to higher education: we have apprenticeships, and a whole range of other areas to cover. If we had more money, I suppose that we could do more things, but we must remember that we cannot determine precisely where a student will go. We kept our fees suppressed, not at the £9,000 level that they are in England; they are probably approaching £4,000 at the moment. That was a deliberate decision to try to make higher education more attainable and affordable.

I support the fundamental point that the noble Lord makes about doing more up there to broaden the range of courses that can be taken. I did support it, I think that there is widespread support in the Northern Ireland Assembly for putting the medical students up to Londonderry, and I would support it. He must remember that there is a supply and demand issue here. The number of students who could be generated in the immediate vicinity of the city of Londonderry is limited, and not all students want to go to university in their own backyard. Young people want to explore, go further and see different things.

We must also analyse potential demand. That is a primary job of the university. It must determine where it is getting its students from. It was made very clear to us what it wanted to do. It said: we want to rebuild our Jordanstown campus and put it in the centre of Belfast. Will you support us or not? It was not a question of Londonderry versus Belfast—that option was not open. It had made its decision. I believe that it should now proceed to support the opening of the medical facility in Londonderry. I would support that—it makes sense, it gives the city a bit of a push—but we must bear in mind that decisions on these matters were taken by the university itself, not by the Government.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Empey, in their support for the proposed medical school in Derry, which appears to have complete cross-party support. If the Northern Ireland Assembly were up and running, from everything I have heard and seen, it would be progressing as of now. It is the lack of an Assembly that is the block. When I raised this previously, the noble Lord, Lord Duncan of Springbank, said that the Londonderry city deal might contribute to it, but the question is whether that is completed or whether an element of government ministerial input is still required to enable full delivery to take place.

This is just another example—the noble Lord, Lord Empey, probably has a list as long as both his arms—of where problems arise. As I said, I have visited the Magee campus. It was an interesting visit given all the things they are doing there, including impressive work on artificial intelligence. As far as the university is concerned, the building is available, it is anxious to move forward and it is frustrated not because of a lack of support—or even, in principle, because of a lack of money—but because of exactly the reason we are stuck here: the lack of decision-making capacity in Northern Ireland.

Can the Minister tell us anything encouraging as to whether steps can be taken that do not immediately depend on the re-establishment of the Assembly or, alternatively, add another bit of pressure to re-establish the Assembly?

[Lord Adonis]

I greatly appreciate what the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, have said in respect of the medical school, but does he accept that the issue goes much wider than that? The number of university places in Derry has declined since 2014 from 4,658 to 4,313. That is the lowest figure by far in any of the 15 towns and cities across the island of Ireland that have higher education provision. Does he agree that there is no reason whatever why Derry should be so disadvantaged in the provision of higher education places?

Northern Ireland (Extension of Period for Executive Formation) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, the issues raised in this order are serious and indeed grave. It will not have escaped the House’s attention that there is no representative from Northern Ireland in the Chamber, as far as I can see—which rather brings home the gravity of the situation we are talking about and the need to get the devolved institutions working. Clearly it is not satisfactory that these issues should be determined in the absence not only of one part of the community of Northern Ireland, which alas is always the case in this House and in the other place, but frequently in the absence of any representatives from Northern Ireland at all.

In respect of the way forward, those of us who do not follow the politics of Northern Ireland day by day were under the impression several months ago that the Government were making progress in agreeing with the parties in Northern Ireland for there to be a mediator. However, nothing appears to have happened since. I am sure that a lot has happened behind the scenes, but certainly nothing has happened in public. Can the Minister give Parliament some encouragement that this might happen? He will have heard clearly a real sense of concern around the House that weeks will turn into months and years, the status quo in Northern Ireland will remain that of no Executive and no sitting Assembly, and obviously there will come a point where the situation simply breaks down.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister may feel that there is an element of Groundhog Day about this debate—but that was a comedy and this situation is becoming increasingly tragic. I echo all the speeches expressing concern about the lack of progress. We need, through the Minister, to press the Secretary of State for some more positive signs of action and creative, imaginative thinking. Neither the Government nor this Parliament have any real credibility as honest brokers in this situation. The Government, as has been said, are perceived, frankly, to be under the thumb of the DUP. Everybody knows that when one deals with the DUP, they do nothing without exacting a price, whether it is visible or invisible. As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, whether or not anything is happening, the perception is that it is—and indeed, looking at the practice, it would not be surprising for people to have that perception.

As has also been said, this Parliament has little credibility, because the majority of the parties in Northern Ireland are not represented here. This also makes the possibility of direct rule almost unthinkable. How can Ministers accountable only to this Parliament be at all credible as brokers of direct rule on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland when the people of Northern Ireland have very little representative voice?

Interchange Fee (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I am sorry to intervene again, but that response could not be more unsatisfactory. Noble Lords seeking to engage in the debate this afternoon on this fundamental issue are supposed to rely on a letter sent to two noble Lords this morning and placed in the Library of the House—a letter of which none of us was aware and could not conceivably have been aware of when we came into the House. That is the basis on which we are supposed to agree fundamental changes to the law, which could have a big impact on holders of credit and debit cards after 29 March. I place on record once again that, when you probe beneath the surface, this no-deal planning that we are engaged in—which is supposed to be technical—involves, if we have no deal from 29 March, fundamental changes to the terms of trade in respect, here, of just one aspect; a whole load of others are coming. All this has been smuggled in with no debate and no proper scrutiny; we are expected just to take the word of the Minister that he has properly considered it.

The issue at stake is not a question of explanation; the Minister can explain it for as long as he likes. The fact is that there is a fundamental change of policy taking place. That fundamental change could lead to higher prices being levied on UK holders of credit and debit cards after 29 March, in the event of no deal, if they seek to use those cards on the continent. It seems wholly unsatisfactory that we should agree to that situation with no debate whatever.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, makes a very serious point. We have only just achieved the abolition of these charges on credit cards, for which the Government tried to claim credit when in fact it was an EU regulation that achieved it. We are effectively being told that, not only with no deal but possibly even with a deal, these charges could or would be introduced. I believe this should be much more fully debated. The noble Lord has a point when he says that something as fundamentally radical as this, which the public will be very cross about when they find it happening, should not go through just on the nod.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Report: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

I have been following the noble Lord’s very interesting speech very closely. How would he propose to deal with England, which has not been mentioned at all in this very long debate, and its 53 million inhabitants in his federal constitution?

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie]

Of course I would wish to deal with England in a friendly and constructive manner, but the serious point is that many of us have recognised that ultimately, the United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They are the entities. Within England there are lots of other entities, but they fall below the state level. I certainly have never had the difficulty other people have had in saying that a federal constitution would include England having its own voice, but that is for another day. All I am saying is that we have muddled along and now have elected mayors, metropolitan authorities, the London Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament—all with different powers, different terms of reference and different mechanisms. Although it is very British to maintain this pluralism and diversity, at some point or other we may need to try to find a slightly more coherent framework in which these matters can be resolved and in which people can know that where there is a dispute, there will an impartial resolution based on law, rather than the heavier political weight overruling the lighter weights.

The fact remains that the noble Lord’s intervention is entirely right: 85% of the population lives in England. England does not constitute 85% of the land area, but if we have a United Kingdom, there is a responsibility on those of us who live elsewhere than in England to acknowledge the weight of England. But if the English want the United Kingdom to continue, it behoves them to understand that they will have to give probably slightly more than they want to accommodate Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, because the price is holding the union together. That is what this debate has fundamentally been about. The argument I always make is that I wonder at what point, if ever, an ultranationalist would regard anything that left residual power with the United Kingdom as acceptable. If your objective is to leave, my only point is that once you have left, you will suddenly find that England is still there and you still have to deal with it. We have had that debate for the past several weeks—about Europe still being there and still having to deal with it. It is the same point.

This debate has been very academic, legalistic and process-driven. In the end, it is about politics and policy and what the Government believe is essentially determined by the UK’s national interest and where they believe that allowing the devolved authorities to block something would be contrary to the UK interest. I say that as somebody who acknowledges that there is sometimes a danger that if Scotland insists on its rights, it will be in the interests not of Scotland but of an ideological commitment to being Scottish, and there are people in Scotland who would rather be poor and independent than well off and sharing resources with the rest of the United Kingdom. We need to know where people are coming from. In a sense, in Scotland people are clearer about that than they were a few years ago. I suggest that support for the United Kingdom, with all its faults—and, by God, there are many and they are very conspicuous at the moment—is significantly stronger than it was a few years ago because people have seen the abyss. We are looking into another abyss right now, and I suspect opinion will change accordingly.

The sunset clause has been mentioned by many people. It would be helpful if the Minister explained why we need five years rather than three. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, made a point about what the sunset clause applies to. I thought it was to the period to which the process would apply, not to the decisions made under that process. That is a point for clarification. From the Government’s point of view, what does the sunset clause apply to?

My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace articulated that for a regulation on, for example, pesticides there would clearly be a UK agreement and it would be perverse for any component part to resist it. I shall give one final example because agriculture features quite strongly in these powers. We are about to leave the European Union. The common agricultural policy has been the basis of support for Scottish farmers. It has been based on an acquis which is focused on smaller, more marginal farmers in the less-favoured areas. The House will be well aware that most of them live in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, although I acknowledge that they also live in the Pennines, the Lake District and other parts of England.

There are debates in the Conservative Party about abandoning subsidies altogether. There is clear concern in the devolved areas about the impact of that. But we can look at it both ways. For example, somebody who sees Scotland as having twice as much, much more marginal agriculture than England, in most cases, would say, “We want to be able to continue to support our agriculture”. But they might also say, “But we think that is something the United Kingdom should help us with, so there should be a UK policy that helps to contribute to it”. The arch-UK nationalist point would be to say, “Well, you can have the right to support your farmers, but you will pay for it out of your own tax base”. I would suggest that questions the validity of the United Kingdom, and I will say that in friendly terms to Michael Gove and his team in due course.

The other area is social security, where we have decided that we want to transfer the power. I find it interesting that the SNP is saying, “No, no, we want more power”, having said, “We can’t quite accept responsibility for social security just yet, because we haven’t got the mechanisms in place”.

I think we have probably reached a settlement which is the centre of gravity of this debate for now. We now need to devise a process in the longer term whereby collective decision-making can be put into a context where all the component parts honestly feel that they are likely to get their voice heard and a fair and equitable decision, with some kind of external judicial review or appeal process as the final backstop, rather than it being based simply on weight of numbers.

Having said that, I think many of us who saw the beginning of this debate when Clause 11 was published are very grateful that we are now at the end of it and can actually see a way forward. I wish it was true of all other aspects of the Bill.