Fire Safety Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Ashton of HydeTuesday 27th April 2021
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Fire Safety Bill 2019-21 View all Fire Safety Bill 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 196-I Marshalled list for Consideration of Commons reason - (27 Apr 2021)
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House unduly, but I need to draw the attention of the House and, in due course, the Procedure Committee to the really unsatisfactory way that our proceedings are conducted on these important matters relating to Commons reasons.
The Commons debated this matter only a few hours ago, and there is no Hansard account of the debate. We were not at all clear when we were going to debate these hugely important matters affecting millions of our fellow citizens: we were told it might be at 4 pm and then 4.40 pm. Many of us have had to hang around the House for hours, waiting to be told when it might happen; we were only recently told that it would be at 7.10 pm.
Until I came into the House, half an hour ago, I was not aware of the amendments that have been tabled because they are not available, in the haphazard way that we conduct these proceedings. I and many other noble Lords have not yet had a proper opportunity to assess the amendments. They are quite complicated and we are being railroaded into taking decisions on them in the next hour.
This is a totally unsatisfactory way for this House to consider important legislative issues. Although I do not wish to detain the House unduly now, as I have said, I feel duty-bound to draw the attention of the House to the unsatisfactory nature of the proceedings. We should take this matter up with the Procedure Committee. We have proper arrangements for the consideration of Bills at all other stages, including fixed intervals between the different stages of consideration. These are in our Standing Orders and they should apply at this vital last stage of Bills, when we are engaged in interchanges with the House of Commons. I beg to move.
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
I start by saying that I disagree with the noble Lord: his amendment is unnecessary because there is a Commons Hansard transcript—it is online and has been since just after 5.30 pm. Nevertheless, the noble Lord’s amendment gives me the opportunity to make it clear to the House that what is proposed for the consideration of the Fire Safety Bill today is entirely in keeping with the normal practice of the House. By “normal”, I mean that this has long been the case and has nothing to do with how we have been working more recently in the hybrid House.
Business of the House
Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.
This Motion will allow the House to debate the three statutory instruments relating to the new local Covid-19 alert levels tomorrow. The debate on them is taking place in the House of Commons today. This will mean that the debate will take place before the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee have reported on them. The House as a whole should be very grateful to the members and staff of the two committees for the work they have done in recent weeks to turn around reports on the various health protection SIs as quickly as they have done. On this occasion, following discussions with the usual channels, it was felt that the wide-ranging nature of the new regulations warranted full debates in both Houses at the earliest opportunity. The Government will, of course, take note of anything that either committee has to say about the SI when they report on them. I beg to move.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, I am a state of some confusion. I thought we were considering the Business of the House Motion relating to the consideration of Commons amendments in the hybrid House. Has that happened already? In that case I am a day late to make comments I would have made to the noble Lord. I have no comments on this Motion.
Business of the House
Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, I have a question of which I have given the Chief Whip notice. How does this Motion, which limits the time in the Virtual Proceeding tomorrow, square with the Business of the House Motion we passed yesterday, which says in paragraph 2(d) that
“the time allotted to business in Virtual Proceedings may be varied by unanimous agreement of members taking part in the Virtual Proceedings”,
particularly in the light of paragraph 6 of the Procedure Committee’s guidance on the Virtual Proceedings, which states:
“A Virtual Proceeding is not a sitting of the House”?
Which of these Motions takes precedence?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving me advance notice of this question, which is always helpful. It always helps the House as well, because your Lordships usually get a better answer. Today’s Motion limits tomorrow’s Labour Party debate to three hours. All party debates are limited in this way, usually by way of a Motion such as this moved on the day the debate is due to take place, but as it is not intended for there to be a physical Sitting of the House tomorrow, I am moving it today instead. As is the case for all party debates, the time limit has been set by reference to the Chief Whip of the party concerned, in this case the Labour Chief Whip, and notified through the usual channels. The operability of today’s Motion is not impaired by the Motion the House agreed yesterday. That Motion empowered the participants in a Virtual Proceeding to vary by unanimous agreement the time limit that applies to the proceeding. Today’s Motion sets the time limit that could theoretically be varied by any such unanimous agreement tomorrow, but I repeat that it would have to be unanimous.
In relation to tomorrow’s virtual debate, I also take this opportunity to draw noble Lords’ attention to paragraph 15 of the Procedure Committee’s guidance on Virtual Proceedings, which states:
“Speakers should still … observe speaking times”.
As the debate tomorrow will be time limited, I remind noble Lords that any time they take over the speaking time may prevent the Minister having all his available time to answer points made in that debate.
Business of the House (Virtual Proceedings and Topical Questions for Written Answer)
Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the House will be very encouraged by the Minister’s response. He has said that it would be “nice” to have the proceedings of the House broadcast, but I think that most people would consider it to be imperative that those proceedings are broadcast. Can he give a commitment that they will not be kept secret for longer than the next two weeks?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I can give a commitment that they will not be kept secret at all because they will be reported in Hansard. However, I agree that this is more than “nice”; it is important and indeed imperative, if you like. We are doing our best to make sure that, when we have a suitable system, the proceedings will be broadcast simultaneously with the Virtual Proceedings, although I think that there will be a 10-second gap. In the meantime, I beg to move.
Business of the House
Debate between Lord Adonis and Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Ashton of Hyde
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Wednesday 11 March to allow the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, on the Motion, will the Chief Whip comment on the story on the front page of the Times today that the House, and indeed Parliament as a whole, might be suspended for six months because of the coronavirus? Is he aware that this would be regarded as a very bad move by almost all Members of the House and would send a terrible signal to the country about the way in which we are treating the crisis that we face? He will be aware that Parliament sat all the way through the war, and indeed through the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918-19. Surely the best advice that we can give ourselves is to keep calm and carry on.