Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Debate between Lord Addington and Baroness Wilcox of Newport

Monday 10th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I do not think I have to add much to what the noble Lord, Lord Watson, said as he is a man who never leaves you in any doubt that he has done his research. However, distance learning should be part of the network and structure of how you acquire qualifications and carry on doing so, updating them as you go through your working life. There cannot be much doubt that it is a good idea, so making sure that alternative forms of study, including distance learning, are covered in the Bill is—well, blindingly obvious comes to mind. We need to have this structure to make sure we are reaching the people we need to get at to improve their lives and, indeed, GDP—that wonderful thing—and productivity. You name it, training is a key component. Making sure it is more easily accessible in a way that is convenient to people, even if it messes up the paperwork a little, has got to be an advantage. I hope that the Minister will say “Yes, we are going to deal with this in another way”, but unless we have something that gives us some assurance here, the Government are missing an obvious trick. I hope that I and the noble Lord, Lord Watson, will go away suitably chastised that of course the Government are going to do this; they just have not told us how yet.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as noted in the register. As my noble friend Lady Twycross has already stated, the Labour Party supports the financial funding for students as evidenced in this legislation. However, as we have already seen in this debate, we have grounds for exploring further clarity and to probe the details so that we can put the best possible version on the statute book. That is what is behind these amendments from my noble friend Lord Watson and other noble Lords.

It is essential that the decline in higher education is reversed. It requires a funding and regulatory system that supports and encourages lifelong learning. The LLE could be transformative in revitalising flexible higher education and reversing the sharp decline in adult learners. It could also incentivise alternative, flexible pathways that support people to access learning throughout life. However, its detailed design will be key in determining how it will work in practice.

My noble friend Lord Watson’s amendment recognises that the regulations do not currently provide for credits to be differentiated according to whether the learning time is in person or distance learning, and Amendment 6 highlights that different per credit limits may not be prescribed according solely to whether the learning time is spent on in-person learning or distance learning. Flexible and distance learning is the key to lifelong learning and to making courses accessible to people who may not otherwise be able to take them.

As my noble friend Lord Watson has already noted, the current progressive system of student finance we have in Wales means that Welsh undergraduate students have on average less to repay than their English peers, as we continue to provide non-repayable grants and students receive a guaranteed level of maintenance support. In England, currently, part-time students studying face-to-face are entitled to receive maintenance support, but the vast majority of part-time distance learning students are not entitled to maintenance support.

The introduction of the LLE could be a real opportunity to make this important change. It would bring greater access and flexibility to lifelong learning. It is a worthwhile goal that would make all the difference. Maintenance support is crucial to learners from disadvantaged backgrounds to prevent further hurdles to them taking up study. Many adults will otherwise be unable to take up these opportunities. These people would be prevented from transforming their life chances and being part of the skilled workforce that employers, the economy and the GDP need. Many people have existing debts, financial commitments or caring needs. If lifelong learning is to succeed, the system must recognise these differences. Furthermore, an extension to distance learning students would help mitigate the current cost of living pressures facing them, which are beginning to impact on mature students, discouraging them from entering study and threatening continuation rates. This would help to widen participation and support by allowing students to take unpaid study leave or to reduce their hours of work to focus on studying.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, this is a fairly straightforward issue. It is about making sure that people are adequately informed about the changes to the way courses are funded. There are two primary targets. One is the institutions themselves; the other is pupils and those providing educational support to get them ready. My primary aim is the school structure, which is dominated by A-levels. Let us face it: we are a group that is probably rather dominated by those who decided that level 6—degree-level traditional learning—was for us. We aspired to it. We all know that what we did was right so expecting teachers to do something other than that will require intervention and periodic reminders.

Let us face it: the figures I have in front of me show that, from 2008-09 to 2019-20, there was a 72% drop in people taking non-degree level courses. In that age group, it has become very unfashionable. We have a skills gap that is decades old. It used to be called technician level but it is where we have always had a skills gap. We know how to push people into degrees but there are dozens of stories—I have been provided with many from the creative industries—about people effectively having to retrain at a lower level of skill on an ad hoc basis to fulfil job roles. People take exams for degrees to get a job. It may well be that everybody would be a damn sight happier—and it would be quicker and cheaper—to make sure they can see levels 4 and 5. Possibly this Bill provides reskilling and skills updating; maybe it is not perfect but it should provide that model. I hope that we will all get behind making sure that we have enough knowledge to get the best out of this change because there is no point in doing it if people do not know it is there.

I have just had it confirmed that one of my little pet hates on this has been removed, which is great. So there is a chance for just about everybody to go through and—I am waving my dyslexia flag here—a lot of that group might be better off taking on something that is not so language-based or report-based. We need a further commitment to making sure that everybody knows about this new option because it addresses a historical problem—I say “well done” to the current Government for grabbing hold of that—and means that people will get what they want from it. If you want the level 6 experience, which we all know is wonderful because we did it, that is great. However, at the moment, people do not know about the other options, especially in terms of the level 3 T-levels and whether they work. I should have said something nice about the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, in the last group, but I forgot; I apologise. We should make sure that something happens there and that we have reassurance that people are informed about their options because there is not much point in doing it if nobody knows about it. I beg to move.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 9 simply asks for more information and guidance. The Bill has been drafted incredibly narrowly in comparison to the full scope of the LLE. I often told my students when they were performing in their examination pieces that less is more when creating a character on stage but, in terms of the detailed guidance in the Bill, we are left with many questions about how it will work in practice. All we want to do is try to ensure that greater substance and practicality is put into the Bill, thus lessening the need for secondary legislation.

Stakeholders have brought up concerns about not yet knowing the details that, when taken together, will make or break whether the LLE will help more people to enter education for the first time later in life; help them to build on existing skills; or allow them to spread that learning over their lifetime. There are uncertainties around the range of courses, the LLE’s role within the wider funding context and its relationship with minimum entry requirements. More detail needs to be included to ensure that it will be effective in boosting lifelong learning. We need greater clarity on the concepts at the centre of the Bill.

There needs to be strong information, advice and guidance campaigns targeted towards both prospective students and employers, which are vital to the success of the LLE. Prospective students of all ages will need help to navigate the widening pool of options and opportunities available to them, and employers will need support to understand and recognise the various qualifications of potential employees.

Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Debate between Lord Addington and Baroness Wilcox of Newport

Saturday 10th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

Thinking about the reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, I have been struck by several factors. First, like most people alive today, I have only ever known a Queen. When you say, “God save the King”, it seems like something from a historical play, and we will have a great deal of getting used to it. This has become apparent, listening to these tributes, by the number of noble Lords who have made the mistake—I will probably make it myself—of referring to the Queen in the present tense rather than the past. There is a very strong feeling of a permanency that has been removed.

Secondly, the greatest achievement of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth’s reign is probably soft power. My noble friend Lord Alderdice has already mentioned her tremendous achievement in Ireland by making the settlement work there. I hope it is also worthwhile for me to join those who have commented on the Commonwealth. When an empire becomes a commonwealth, it is a considerable achievement. Empires do not usually come about because a nation has been invited to rule people; there are usually marching feet and weapons involved. The fact that we have transformed the Empire into the Commonwealth, and that it has grown and prospered, is a magnificent achievement. The fact that it was achieved by people who were not involved in that Empire is remarkable. This was all done under the leadership of Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. It will probably be regarded as her greatest achievement: the United Kingdom’s soft power, its projection and its cultural values have become things that we will all remember.

There is also the personal touch. As has already been mentioned, the Queen was “the Queen”; there was no other worldwide. The best example of that that I can find is from many years ago. I went through a friend’s record collection and found a BB King album on which he talks about meeting the Queen and giving her advice about what you do when you have too many parties to go to. I feel that the advice could probably have been going the other way. Nevertheless, everybody knew who the Queen was, and His Majesty King Charles III has a great opportunity and burden to carry on that work. I wish him every success.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

During her long reign, Her late Majesty demonstrated hard work, tireless commitment, loyalty, dignity and respect for duty and became the longest-serving monarch in British history. The changes that she saw over that time are quite astounding. In my part of the United Kingdom—Wales—the heavy industry that I grew up with in the mining areas has given way to financial and other services. Indeed, the United Kingdom itself is very different. Power is dispersed to other Parliaments in the four nations of the UK. Movement to and from the Commonwealth, the European Union and beyond has fashioned a more diverse and multicultural people in our society. Throughout her long life, the late Queen was an example of the importance of public duty. She clearly valued community, public service and loyalty to others.

I echo the comments of the First Minister of Wales, who said yesterday:

“It is with great sadness that”


people in Wales mourn

“the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II”

and

“her long and exceptional life, as our longest reigning monarch”.

Perhaps the most significant and long-lasting connection between Wales and the late Queen grew out of her empathy following the Aberfan disaster, as noted by my noble friends. That Friday in October 1966, as a young schoolgirl in Pontygwaith Primary School in the Rhondda, I stood in the playground after lunchtime and, along with my friends and under the instruction of our headmaster Mr Lewis, I closed my eyes, put my hands together and prayed for the children of Aberfan. I had never heard of the place before that day, as it was several valleys to the west, but I have never forgotten it since. The late Queen continued to make visits to the village over the decades and, indeed, visited it more than any other member of the Royal Family.

The first time I saw her in person was at Buckingham Palace in the summer of 2009. I was struck by her luminescence; she simply shone. The next time I saw her in person was in your Lordships’ House in December 2019 when attending my first State Opening, and the moment of seeing her again in person was extraordinary, especially as I was now one of her trusty and beloved servants, a phrase and understanding that will live with me for the rest of my life.

Yesterday was the day His Majesty conferred the title of Prince of Wales—Tywysog Cymru—on his eldest son. God bless the Prince of Wales. Yesterday evening, I joined the Bishop of Monmouth and the leader of Newport City Council at the city’s St Woolos’ Cathedral to take part in a service of thanksgiving for the life of our late Queen. It was a moment of extreme poignancy to sing for the first time in public—and we are good singers in Wales—“God save the King”, and I am glad that it took place in my home city and the place from where I proudly take my title. Tomorrow, I shall join the leader of the council and others to take part in the official proclamation ceremony at Newport Civic Centre and will then return to London on Monday to hear the King’s Address to both Houses of Parliament.

On the death of his father, Wales’s finest poet, Dylan Thomas, wrote:

“Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight

Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.”

God bless you, ma’am, and may you rest in peace. Er côf annwyl. God save the King.

Schools Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Baroness Wilcox of Newport

Report stage & Lords Hansard - Part 2
Tuesday 12th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, starting with Amendment 62, it was one of those amendment where I proved, once again, to myself that I could not be in two places at once and came in halfway through last time. It is one of those amendments where I am unhappy about the fact that it needed to be moved. It is a group of lobbies, effectively, coming together saying the system does not work and that we have not got round to fixing it. I know the Minister will tell me, when she replies, that there is a review looking into special educational needs at the moment, but will she take on board and feed back that we actually have a postcode lottery about where there is support and where there is not? There is no arguing about this: it just is. If it were possible to transform the circumstances from the good authorities to the bad ones, that would be fine and we would have much less of a problem.

Something else that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has picked up on is that, unless people have an EHC plan, the chances of their getting help are so much more reduced. When we passed the Children and Families Act 2014, we assumed there would be a gradated approach of support and the EHC plans would be reduced compared with the number of statements. This has not happened, because we have identified more problems. There was a gross underidentification—this much we do know—probably not in these particular groups because most people can spot if someone cannot hear or see, but with other problems it is more difficult. Without an EHC plan, it is a struggle, and if people fall behind, they have higher needs and they go to the lawyers. One thing that should be borne in mind with this amendment is that we are in an environment where one of the greatest growth departments in the legal profession is people dealing with the educational system to get support. That says, clearer than anything else I can think of, that there has been a failure. I was on the Committee of that Bill and I did not see it coming, but it has happened.

We need some indication of how better allocation of support will come. This is not a big argument about “Are they or aren’t they?” or whether we need a heavy diagnosis of things such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, attention deficit disorder or the rest of them. It is something that is comparatively easy to spot, so I would hope we can get some idea what the Government’s thinking is. I appreciate that the review is still going on, but if we can get some kind of idea of what they are thinking about on these conditions, it should take some of the pressure off.

My noble friend Lady Brinton’s amendment, once again, goes back to the Children and Families Act 2014 and is something of a no-brainer in my opinion. If someone with medical training such as a doctor—a specialist doctor, often—says “Don’t do it: it will be detrimental to their health or difficult” and then someone in the Department for Education says, “But we want to do something else”, I am sorry, but health comes first. Children cannot learn if they are unhealthy, or if they are struggling with their health or if they are worried about it. That much we have proven. It is essential that we bring into the Bill some way to give greater clarification that, when a medical need is identified, the school or education environment must react correctly—that is agreeing with it unless they have very good grounds. If noble Lords can think of some examples of where this would happen, or where a school might have that capacity, I am all ears.

On the general area of mental health, having talked about some of the other issues here in special educational needs et cetera, we know that stress enhances mental health conditions. Let us face it: schools now are expected to pass more, and Governments of all sides have encouraged that. Anybody struggling with that process is immediately under stress, so it is not that surprising if we are discovering that many more stresses or mental health conditions—and we do spot them now. We are looking for them and if you look for things, you find them.

If you want to find an environment where people have incredibly low attainment and very high mental health needs, look into a prison system: the scholars of the group will have left school at 14 and virtually none will have secondary education. That is often because they cannot cope with it or are not succeeding, or it may be because of their background. I might be going to the worst-case scenario early, but it hones minds on to these areas. We need to get in and spot this.

If some financial support is found here or from government generally, that may well help with money in the long term, because departments should work together. They find it incredibly difficult to do it because there are Chinese walls. Everybody says, “We’re going to have a committee that works together.” Two Ministers meet once in a blue moon, then forget about it and find another priority so as to avoid it; that is the experience many Ministers have described to me, not just in education or health. If we do not get some better way of giving some active support, we are going to miss these problems and they will become acute later on.

I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, is going to say on this group, but these issues are ongoing. I would hope, on Amendment 107, that the Minister will simply tell us how it is to be better done. I understand that the others have a more complicated web of interaction, but I hope that we will get some positive guidance—or see the way that the Government’s minds are working, or were at least working a few weeks ago.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, this is my first opportunity at the Dispatch Box after the vote we took last week on changing the hours of the House of Lords. I am so glad to see that all those people who were so clear about staying after the dinner break are here—not.

Good mental health is fundamental to be able to thrive in life. I spoke in Committee about the experience of growing up with a dearly loved mother who suffered so wretchedly from mental illness and the limiting effects it had upon her quality of life. She was extremely proud of my achievements but could never fully engage in them, due to the debilitating effects of her condition.

Current research shows that 50% of mental health problems are established by the age of 14 and that 75% are established by the age of 24. Young people in the UK today are dealing with high levels of stress, due to a variety of issues. The DfE’s annual report State of the Nation 2021 noted that reductions in average levels of well-being occurred most clearly in February 2021, when schools were closed to the majority of children, before recovering towards the end of the academic year.

In this context, we have therefore introduced two amendments. First, Amendment 114 would compel the Secretary of State, whoever he or she may be, to consult on the current provision in place to support children’s mental health and well-being in schools. Our second amendment, Amendment 115, would compel the Secretary of State to publish an annual report on: how the mental health of children in academies and maintained schools in England affects, and is affected by, their schooling; actions being taken by schools to improve pupil mental health; and the extent to which schools are working with local National Health Service and voluntary and community sector providers, as noted by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham.

I have previously drawn your Lordships’ attention to the fact that mental health is not mentioned in the Bill. We have debated over many days and have made—people who have been here for years tell me—gigantic changes to this Bill by comparison. We have debated school structures, while one in six of those aged between six and 16 have a probable mental health issue. This is a priority area for Labour. We would guarantee mental health treatment for all who need it within a month and hire at least 8,500 new mental health professionals. But a creaking National Health Service cannot do this alone.

The focus should be on prevention. Schools play a vital role in this area with a maintenance of general welfare and resilience throughout a child’s time in education, rather than acting only at times of crisis when it is too late. It is an acute crisis, and recognising that is an essential tool to learning and welfare. We need to intimately understand the drivers of the problem and give targeted support to tackle it. Both Labour amendments are urgently needed.

Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Baroness Wilcox of Newport

Committee stage
Thursday 15th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, this is an interesting group of amendments, because I think everybody would agree that universities as institutions have a duty of care to their students. They are adults, but most of them are only just adults. I must declare an interest here; I have an 18 year-old daughter who is expecting to go to university—and not only go to university, but a university in another country: Wales in this case, but there we are.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

It is another country.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

At least I have got that confirmed; I thank the noble Baroness for that aside.

The point here is about “Students like us, how do they do and what do they go through?” I have heard it from many people, and indeed from members of my own family. Two of my nephews are of mixed race and are wondering “Where do we go where people like us are?” We have to get this information out, because it is a perfectly normal thing. You are leaving the support structure of home and your parents, but there is some way of intervening.

The noble Lord, Lord Willetts, referred to special educational needs. We have a universal package there called the disabled students’ allowance. We have a structure within universities that means you actually have to give things. Members of the Front Bench have sparred with me on this—I think “sparred” is quite accurate—in the past. There is a structure of support and a standard, and you can take action if that standard is not fulfilled. That is difficult, but it is there. You have a support structure going through.

So having more information about what happens here and what goes on will not hurt. It is not that big an ask. People are posting about entrance requirements and groups are coming across—it is happening at the moment. I suggest that having more information gives a better guide to what can come out of the experience and what other people are experiencing on their way through. I think this information is being gathered in many places anyway, usually for internal commercial reasons by the institutions. It would not hurt to have it in there.

I do not know whether the Government are in the mood for accepting amendments at the moment. I always remember when it happened to me many years ago; it stunned me into silence for the rest of the evening. It may be a bit late in this day for doing that, but I just throw that out. It would be something that would be quite good to have. I would hope that the Government at least give us some idea that they are encouraging, if not requiring, people to do it.