Local Government Finance (England)

Debate between Liz Kendall and Graham Stuart

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stuart]

I expect that my right hon. Friend and I will always be on the same side on such matters. He is right in what he says.

One of the most important aspects of the settlement—the promise to look again fully at the needs of local government—is not actually in the settlement, and it is long overdue. As my right hon. Friend has just said, when the facts change, sometimes my opinions do, too. The fact is that this country has a fast-ageing population, as Labour Members have said, and the distribution figures show that older people are disproportionately to be found in rural, rather than urban, areas—[Interruption.] Some people are saying “Nonsense!” and “Rubbish!” I do not know what dataset they have, but just as there is a massive discrepancy between the amounts per head for rural and urban areas—it was 50% when Labour left power, and it is 45% now—

[Liz Kendall]

Nobody from the Opposition is denying that elderly people live in rural areas, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that we have to consider those people’s ability to pay? The most deprived areas have the greatest need for publicly funded care. Does he not agree that that must be part of the equation?

[Graham Stuart]

Some of the hon. Lady’s colleagues deny that the people in rural areas are older, on average, than those in urban areas. They shouted “Rubbish!” just moments ago when I asserted that, even though the shadow Minister acknowledged it in his speech in January. People are, on average, older in rural areas, and the hon. Lady is clearly unaware of—or, like too many of her colleagues, closes her ears to—the fact that people in rural areas are, on average, poorer than those in urban areas. Average earnings based on residence are lower in rural areas than in urban areas. Average earnings based on place of employment are lower in rural areas than in urban areas. That is not to say that centres of real deprivation do not need special and specific support, but to generalise that the poor burghers of Sheffield are all on the breadline, whereas everyone in Withernsea in my constituency is living it up in some rich, prosperous rural idyll, is nonsense. I know that the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) would not do that, but too much of the Labour party’s argument has suggested otherwise, as has much of today’s debate.

If we are to move to a fair system, we must recognise how iniquitous it was of the Labour Government to use density to drive funding to wealthier, younger, less needy urban areas. The Labour party is now screaming about an adjustment that recognises an ageing population, predominantly based in rural areas, who are also poorer. Those are the facts; if they are not, I will happily take another intervention from the hon. Ladies who shouted “Rubbish!” at me. The Labour party was shameful in skewing the funding formulae. It is equally shameless now in pretending that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is being unfair in dealing with the mess that the previous Labour Government left behind and making the tough decisions that he has to make.

In a less partisan spirit, I say to Members from all parts of the House that we must work together on the needs assessment to embed efficiency, not dependency and incompetence, and to recognise hard need such as an ageing population. Someone who is relatively healthy but old has—guess what?—higher health needs and higher social care needs. They are entwined, as colleagues from all parts of the House have said. They are predominantly less well funded in rural areas than in urban areas, so there is greater need. The Labour party should hang its head in shame at the fact that it turned its face utterly against that clear and present need. If the party apologised, as it should, for doing so, it would have much more traction in the debate to appeal for a fair and proper settlement.