Britain-Iran Relations

Debate between Jim Shannon and Richard Bacon

Wednesday 12th October 2016 Westminster Hall

[Mr Bacon]

No. There is persecution throughout the world. Many people think that abortion is a fundamental human right and that for a country to make it illegal is not normal. I happen to disagree with them, but the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Strangford represent constituencies in which abortion is still illegal. I think that is a decision for local people to make locally, but what constitutes “normal” is actually a very wide spectrum.

The key point that needs to be understood is that after 9/11, while much of the middle east was yodelling in the street at the destruction of the twin towers and the murder of many thousands of people, including many Muslims, Iran flew its flags at half mast, held candlelit vigils and offered the United States strategic and logistical help in the fight against the Taliban, which was accepted,.

I hope the hon. Member for Strangford, as a serious religious man, will listen carefully to this: what is least understood about all these imbroglios, and indeed about what is going on in Syria, is that to the Taliban, al-Qaeda and now Daesh, the first enemy is not the west and not Christians but the Shi’a. It should come as no surprise to anyone that the Iranians are supporting the Shi’a in Syria, or that the Iranians were opposed to the Taliban who wanted to kill the Shi’a. It should come as no surprise that the Iranians were deeply opposed to al-Qaeda, which particularly attacks the Shi’a.

[Jim Shannon]

I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman, but the point that my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) and I are trying to make is that 108 Christians were arrested and imprisoned last year. That is hardly an indication of a Government that is open and inclusive of Christianity. Pastor Behnam Irani is serving a six-year prison sentence because he is a Christian who refused to accept the Muslim religion and wanted to preach to his people. That is an example of what is taking place.

[Mr Bacon]

Did the hon. Gentleman say 108?

[Jim Shannon]

Yes, 108.

[Mr Bacon]

That is exactly the same number of people who were beheaded in Saudi Arabia last year. I know that that is equally irrelevant, but let me just point out—[Interruption.]

Zero-hours Contracts

Debate between Jim Shannon and Richard Bacon

Wednesday 27th May 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

I am pleased to have the opportunity to introduce the first Adjournment debate of the new Parliament. It was a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies). I would love to tell him that the Scottish National party Members were sitting in their places because of the rumour that he was the most exciting speaker in western Europe, and that the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) was there because he wanted to hear every word the hon. Gentleman had to say, but in fact I know that the right hon. Gentleman is sitting there with some of his colleagues because they want to hear what we on the Government Benches have to say about zero-hours contracts. It may seem unusual for a Conservative Member to be raising this subject, which was controversial at some point during the general election, but at a time when the Labour party is unable to focus on any subject at all, as evidenced by the number of Labour Members now in the Chamber, it is left to the governing party, the Conservative party, and what I think they would probably call the real Opposition to focus on the issues that are important to the nation, and zero-hours contracts is one of those issues.

The expression “zero-hours contracts” is a colloquial term for a contract of service under which a worker is not guaranteed work and is paid only for work carried out. It is fair to say that such contracts have attracted both criticism and praise. Employer organisations tend to stress the role that zero-hours contracts can play in helping businesses to meet fluctuating demand, and they argue that such contracts play a key role in keeping people in jobs. Trade union campaigners and others emphasise how the financial insecurity of those people who are on zero-hours contracts limits their ability to rent property or to access loans or mortgages, so that it becomes more difficult for them to provide for their families, and that the general uncertainty facing workers on zero-hours contracts is compounded because such people are not defined as employees, which means that they do not qualify for most employment rights.

The Office for National Statistics has examined the matter to estimate the number of people who have zero-hours contracts, and it is fair to say that there is a little blurring at the edges about the accurate numbers, depending on how they are counted. The ONS has collected statistics based on the labour force survey, which asks workers rather than employers about their employment arrangements, and this suggests that there may be about 697,000 people on zero-hours contracts. A survey by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development produced a rather higher number of about 1 million, but the ONS thinks that that may overstate the sampling of large employers. None the less, there is a small but significant proportion of the total workforce of 31 million people—perhaps between 2.2% and 3.2%—who are on zero-hours contracts.

The workplace employment relations survey estimated that the proportion of workplaces with at least some workers on zero-hours contracts has doubled from 4% in 2004 to 8% in 2011, and what is particularly significant is the concentration of workers on zero-hours contracts in certain sectors. The Financial Times reported in April 2013 that there were more than 100,000 zero-hours contracts in use across NHS hospitals, the number having risen by 24% over two years. In the hotel and catering sector, some 53% of employers make at least some use of these contracts, and it has been estimated that some 61% of workers in the domiciliary care sector are on zero-hours contracts.

A social entrepreneur, Mrs Sheila King, in my South Norfolk constituency has told me of the great value of zero-hours contracts for small charities. Mrs King conceived and developed the Pennoyer centre in Pulham St Mary in my constituency. The centre, which is run as a local village charity, is in a building which is part derelict Victorian primary school and part 14th-century medieval guild chapel, and which is now, with the help of grants Mrs King secured from the Heritage Lottery Fund and other grant-making bodies, a multi-purpose village centre. It serves as a conference centre, an IT training centre, a café, a restaurant, a village hall and, indeed, as a polling station in the recent general election, which I say with particular affection because it was where I cast my own vote.

Of the 13 people who work at the centre, four are on zero-hours contracts and they earn holiday pay for every hour worked. These workers include some women over the age of 60 who are happy to have a few hours’ work here and there, and some sixth formers working for their A-levels who at certain times, when they are studying, want to be able to say no to any work at all, whereas at other times they will tell the centre that they would like as many hours as possible. Mrs King told me that it would be difficult to run the centre without the flexibility offered by zero-hours contracts, which she said were “flexible on both sides”.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Over the election period I had occasion to meet some people who were employed on zero-hours terms and their views were clear. The hon. Gentleman has given us a rosy picture of charities which use such contracts, but many people on zero-hours contracts are temporary agency workers who have no rights, as the hon. Gentleman said, and whose hours and pay are minimal. The companies employing them are successful and are making large profits. Is it not fair that those on minimal hour contracts should receive long-term contracts with better wages if the companies are making a large profit?

[Mr Bacon]

I agree that the picture is not all rosy. I started with the rosy news because I wanted to soften up my hon. Friend the Minister, but there are problems. That is why I applied for this debate. I will come on to some of those problems in a moment.

Mrs King told me:

“Just because it is not for everyone doesn’t mean it is wrong for everyone and that it is somehow toxic. Implemented legally and fairly, zero-hours contracts can be a brilliant way for small charities like ours to run more effectively.”

The whole issue of zero-hours contracts, as the hon. Gentleman said, featured in the general election campaign, particularly after the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), the former leader of the Labour party, said that the Labour party, if returned, would abolish zero-hours contracts, although the manifesto does not say that. It does not call for the complete abolition of zero-hours contracts. It says:

“Labour will ban exploitative zero-hours contracts.”

The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), who was for a few minutes a candidate to succeed as leader of the Labour party, was quite explicit when he told the Labour party conference that Labour

“will act to outlaw zero hours contracts where they exploit people.”

Meanwhile, the Conservative manifesto promised to

“take further steps to eradicate abuses of workers, such as non-payment of the Minimum Wage, exclusivity in zero-hours contracts and exploitation of migrant workers.”

I am pleased that the new Government are now in a position to follow through on these commitments.

With reference to the comments from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), what struck me about the issue during the general election was how frequently voters mentioned it to me, unprompted, often while talking about their grown-up children entering the workforce, which suggests that it may be a bigger issue than the statistics suggest. In one election debate in a church, a member of the audience explained how his son travelled to Norwich each day to work in a retail outlet. When he got there at 9 o’clock in the morning he was told to go and sit in a store room at the back. Later in the morning, if it got busy, he would be called out on to the shop floor, for which he would be paid. He would then be ordered back to the store room to wait for his next slice of paid work later in the day.

I do not know anybody who would defend such arrangements. They are indefensible and, by the way, they are almost certainly illegal already, because the law states that “time workers” must be paid at least the national minimum wage when they are on standby at or near the place of work and are required to be available. I do not want to get this out of proportion. It is not a universal problem. Indeed, I met a young man earlier this week who was delighted with the flexibility that his zero-hours contract gives him, but who also said to me, “What you cannot do is take someone’s time and then not pay them for it.”