Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England)

Debate between Jim Shannon and Ian Lavery

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Is it not an absolute outrage that we have only 90 minutes in this zombie Parliament for such an important debate? This matter should have been worthy of at least a day’s debate.

The men and women in the fire and rescue service do a tremendous and dangerous job. We are talking about not just their pensions and whether they finish at 55 or 60, but the safety and health of our constituents. I do not want a 60-year-old man or woman climbing up a ladder, expecting to pull me—16 stone and 6 ft 1—out of a window and climbing back down the ladder again. If there is anybody here who thinks that is the right thing to do, they know how to vote tonight. We must treat this matter extremely seriously. We are not talking about a normal job here. It is a job for young, healthy people who keep themselves fit throughout their whole career. They should not be doing this job in the twilight of their career at 60 years of age. For heaven’s sake, everybody knows that! It is no good trying to deny it. We want young men and women rescuing people in our communities.

The matter has been sorted out in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Why on earth can we not sort it out here in England? It is purely about ideology. Who do we want to see when there is a bomb attack, a problem in the tube station, an explosion or a fire? We want to see the fire and rescue brigade.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman referred to Northern Ireland. Clearly, the Northern Ireland Assembly understand that there is a physical issue and recognise what people are able to do at the age of 55 and 60. They have also secured their pension fund. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that whereas Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland have accepted the union’s view, here, in England, the supreme example of what is being done elsewhere cannot be done?

[Ian Lavery]

That is the very point I am trying to make. It is common sense. We are asking the Minister: why not accept that here in England, when everywhere else in the UK has? The answer has everything to do with ideology. There is no one who wants this change. The general public are opposed to it; a large number of MPs are opposed to it; the workers are opposed to it; and the medical experts are emphatic in their opposition. They say that it is not right to suggest that people aged 60 can do this sort of work. No one, apart from this Government, supports this measure. We want the Government to reconsider. We want our firefighters to have the same as the firefighters in Northern Ireland: retirement at 55 without any financial penalty. They are losing 21.8% of their pension if they retire at the age of 55. It is an absolute outrage. MPs would not accept that, so why should members of the Fire Brigades Union, people who support our communities? There are no payment guarantees. We want law, not guidance. It is not good enough to say at the Dispatch Box and in a ministerial statement put out on the day of the debate that everything in the garden is rosy. We owe the members of the fire and rescue service a huge debt of gratitude. But gratitude does not put food on the table and feed the kids. I salute the dedication, commitment and professionalism of the men and women in our tremendous service. Let us get our act together tonight, revoke the statutory instrument and negotiate a fair deal for firefighters.

Asbestos in Schools

Debate between Jim Shannon and Ian Lavery

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

I sought this Adjournment debate in an attempt to highlight a most serious situation facing the nation’s schools—the presence of asbestos in many school buildings and the risk of exposure to it among pupils and workers alike. I say at the outset that in no way am I looking to score political points. I hope that my views, comments and questions in this debate will attract cross-party support.

Of the 33,600 schools in Britain, the Department for Education has estimated that more than 75% contain asbestos. Some 14,000 schools were built after the second world war, and almost all those built before 1975 contain asbestos. Schools refurbished during that period are also likely to contain it.

Exposure to asbestos fibres, even at low levels, can cause lung cancer and mesothelioma, which is a cancer affecting the lining of the lung. We should not be complacent about the presence of those dust fibres and the effects that it can have on an individual’s life. It is estimated that more than 4,000 people a year die as a result of exposure to asbestos. Mesothelioma has a lengthy latency period, which simply means that the condition may not surface for perhaps 20, 30 or even 40 or 50 years following exposure. However, once the disease is diagnosed, it is largely fatal, with most victims dying within 18 months of diagnosis.

Does the Minister agree that the Government’s policy should be the phased removal of all asbestos from schools, with priority being given to those schools where the asbestos is in the worst condition or considered to be the most dangerous or damaged?

Exposure to asbestos in schools is endangering the lives of tens of thousands of schoolchildren and teachers, many of whom are completely unaware of their daily exposure. It has continued for generations, and year after year, individuals diagnosed with lung cancer, mesothelioma and other asbestos-related diseases are puzzled about the whereabouts of their exposure. In many cases, it happened while they were at school.

More than 140 school teachers have died from mesothelioma in the past 10 years. Disturbingly, figures relating to other school workers, such as cleaners and administration staff, and relating to the number of children who have died as a result of exposure, are unknown. Children are likely to be particularly vulnerable to asbestos exposure, because their lungs are still developing. If we use the ratio calculation used in the US, which is that for every teacher who dies nine children will die, that translates into the alarming statistic of 100 people dying each year here in the UK as a result of exposure at school.

The materials of greatest concern are those that readily release asbestos fibres into the environment. Many people mistakenly believe that those fibres are confined to asbestos lagging, sprayed asbestos and asbestos insulating boards, but that is not the case. Asbestos was commonly used to spray ceilings and structural beams, and extensively used in wall constructions and many other areas that are vulnerable to damage and disturbance by the school population on a daily basis.

Does the Minister agree that by law, all schools should be required to carry out a thorough asbestos survey, which should include air tests and detailed independent inspections? Will immediate consideration be given to that?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I fully endorse the hon. Gentleman’s comments. In 2004, the Northern Ireland Assembly took a decision to undertake asbestos tests in all schools and to have it removed, and such decisions have been taken in other regions of the UK. Does that not reinforce his point that it is now up to England to follow suit?

[Ian Lavery]

That is the very reason for this debate. I want a survey to be carried out, followed by the phased removal of asbestos in a strategic manner between now and a given date. The hon. Gentleman’s comment adds strength to my argument.