Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 8th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I did not expect to be called ahead of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), but thank you very much for calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions. There are a great many issues to speak on, some of which we will come to tomorrow. I hope to have the opportunity and more time to comment on them then.

To say that I am disheartened to be living through this déjà vu is a massive understatement. I will put it in the words of one of my constituents, who spoke to me only this morning: “I’m absolutely gutted.” Those are the words of that gentleman. I am gutted for my constituents, who are good, hard-working men and women with families, whose day-to-day lives have been stymied because Sinn Féin refuses to be democratic and to put its demand list to the democratically elected Assembly.

We need to put the blame where the blame is—not with the democratic parties that are not holding up the process. My constituents see restrictions in secondary school places for their children and the threat of closure of one post-primary, non-selective school in a town of 30,000 in Newtownards, and they see no Minister to appeal to for common sense to enable that process to be stopped. They see waiting lists shooting through the roof—appointments for routine surgeries, with people sitting for two years in agony awaiting hip replacements. They see their children waiting for ear, nose and throat appointments for tonsil problems after nine months of pain. They see massive projects with shovel-ready funding in place that are not able begin because a senior civil servant fears overstepping his or her position. New builds are on hold. Primary and secondary school budgets are short of the moneys needed to keep them going. Principals from my constituency have expressed concern over their budgets for the coming year. The issue of special needs is also a critical factor, which we have discussed in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, as hon. Members here who are on that Committee will know.

The one thing in this process that is clear to me is that when it comes to health, it does not matter if you are a nationalist or Unionist. Health issues affect everyone. When it comes to education issues, it does not matter whether you are a nationalist or a Unionist; they hurt you the same whoever you are. Potholes are not exclusive to the Unionist area or the nationalist area—they are everywhere. When it comes budgets and agreeing a way forward, those are things we clearly could do.

Benefits are now one of the biggest issues in my office, taking up some 25% to 30% of my office casework. That is a massive contribution. A working Northern Ireland Assembly could address the critical benefit issues of our constituents. Would it not be better if the Northern Ireland Assembly was in place, at least to be able to use some of the block budget, as we have in the past, to help to allay some of the fears on benefit issues?

The first food bank in the whole of Northern Ireland, a Trussell Trust food bank, was in Newtownards in my constituency. Is it not better that we slow down the rate at which people are referred to food banks? Poverty levels, especially among children, are at their highest for many years; we need an Assembly that can work, and that can only happen if we have a process that enables it to happen.

In the smaller realm of things, we have warm home schemes with budgets allocated, but as yet the previous scheme has continued. My constituents in their 80s who are sitting with their old boilers that lose as much oil as is used, damaging the environment and damaging their lungs, are being told, “Yes, you’re suitable, but, oh wait, we can’t do the new scheme just yet because—guess what?—we haven’t got a Minister in place, we haven’t got a Department, and we haven’t got the extra moneys that are allocated and necessary.” Again, the whole process builds up. There are also the roads budgets. Only last Thursday, the Transport Committee talked about the potholes programme. Then there are all the tarmacking schemes for new roads across the whole constituency. I have said before and I say it again—Members will be surprised if I do not—that the bypass for Ballynahinch continues to be a big issue for my constituency and the people I look after.

We are coming towards 12 July, and in my constituency we are very pleased to have a good bonfire strategy. Working through Ards and North Down Borough Council, we have managed to ensure that tyres are not put on the bonfires in my constituency, so we do not have the problem that is found in other areas. We have the opportunity of Orangefest, the traditional 12 July parade being held in Holywood, in the constituency of the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), where both communities are able to enjoy all the culture, history and tradition. We are very fortunate in my constituency of Strangford and her constituency of North Down to have good community relations, and long may that continue. I am a member of Kircubbin Volunteers Loyal Orange Lodge, and over the past number of years I have been there I have seen the two communities coming together. They all come out on the 12th day to enjoy the parades.

The hon. Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis), who is no longer here, pointed the finger at some of the political parties. I was disappointed with that, because the Democratic Unionist party has made special efforts, through Dr Paisley, Peter Robinson and Arlene Foster, to move the political process forward. We have all gone on a road of change in our lives politically in terms of what we wanted in the past and what we were prepared to achieve. The political process in the Northern Ireland Assembly happened because politicians in the Democratic Unionist party—and, to be fair, politicians in Sinn Féin—felt at the time that the Northern Ireland Assembly was the way forward. It is good that that happened.

[Bob Stewart]

The elephant in the room is the fact that Sinn Féin just does not give a damn about the Northern Ireland Executive. A year and a half ago, we were talking about making moves very fast towards having direct rule, and each time we have pushed and pushed and pushed. It is actually in Sinn Féin’s interest to continue to procrastinate and to destroy the Northern Ireland Executive. We finally have to recognise that.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention—he is absolutely right. The Sinn Féin of today is a very different body from back then. It was in a process where it wanted a political regional assembly to move forward; today, the obstacles and obstructions that it puts down are very clear.

With everything that is in me I echo the cries of my constituents. This is simply not good enough, and the Secretary of State must understand that. Last week, we lost one of our politics’ brightest stars to the private sector—my colleague Simon Hamilton. I warned about this during the previous extension debates. I said that we would lose those with mortgages and young families who love their country but have bills to pay and lives to live. They need job security like anyone else. They need to have fulfilment in their job like anyone else. We are in danger of losing more people like Simon, in other parties as well, who are invested in seeing their children live, grow and work in a prosperous Northern Ireland. That is not because Northern Ireland is hopeless, because it is not, but because they are being prevented from doing what they want to do and should be doing. Simon Hamilton was a visionary politician. He was also my election agent in the past three elections, and I thank him for that. He had a vision for Northern Ireland and wanted to be part of the process. Unfortunately, the fact that we are not moving forward has made him take this decision.

I echo what my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) has said: we need a political process, and no longer can one party hold back others. We need to look at a different method. If five parties want to be involved in a democratic political process and a way forward, we should do that. No more can one party—Sinn Féin—hold up the process, as the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said.

MLAs are maligned as lazy and self-seeking by some in this House and those who perhaps do not understand exactly what they do, yet they are desperate to do their jobs properly. They are prevented from doing so by self-serving Sinn Féin, who could not break this nation with bombs, who could not domination through their machination regarding the voting system and procedure, and who have instead decided to cripple it from within. I mean no disrespect, but that crippling was described to me as being aided and abetted by this Government—it has not been dealt with by a Government who have had their eyes on Brexit, as they must—at the expense of my constituents.

Many Members have referred to the hard border. The Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has said that there is no need for a hard border. The EU has said that there is no need for a hard border. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has said that there is no need for a hard border. When all those players say that there is no need for a hard border, we must ask ourselves why we would pursue that. My father came from Castlefinn in Donegal, and my mother came from Clady, outside Strabane. That did not stop my mother and father crossing the border and meeting each other. I would not be here today if they had not met—that is a fact of life. The border never stopped people crossing it to meet and get together.

We want to see Northern Ireland move forward, and this Bill does not do that. It keeps us treading water. The problem is that we are fast losing all energy and are beginning to drown, not because the funding or the ability is not there, but because the tough decisions are not being taken. They are not being taken by the people who need to take them, but are afraid of taking the wrong one. We need action, not to continue as we are.

Tomorrow, we will consider the amendments, if they are selected, on abortion and same-sex marriage. I will go into more detail tomorrow if I get the opportunity, but as of 7 o’clock tonight, I have had 443 emails from my constituents—31 of those were in favour of change, and the other 412 were not. I say to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy): listen clearly to what happens in my constituency. I will go into more detail tomorrow about all the issues in relation to abortion and same-sex marriage.

I will support this Bill. I have no option, unless I wish to see NHS staff not receiving their wages, no schools open in September and our civil service grinding to a halt. While there are few options, the Secretary of State and the Minister are not optionless and must create their options. They must introduce legislation to say that those who are elected must take their seats with no preconditions and be emphatic instead of inactive. The Secretary of State must do her job and make these decisions for Northern Ireland.

Our country is drowning. The Secretary of State and the Minister must be the lifeguards, stop patrolling around the edges and dive in to do something to save my constituents in Strangford and people across Northern Ireland. I support the Bill, and I ask the Secretary of State and the Minister to do their job and support the good, hard-working, decent people of Northern Ireland, instead of those who are hellbent on destruction.

Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland: Legacy Cases

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Westminster Hall

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I was tempted not to speak, but I will be short. I want to say two things.

I served with the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I watched how it worked for three and a half years. I know 38 Kildrum Gardens in the Creggan. I was the intelligence officer in Londonderry in 1978. I watched Royal Ulster Constabulary officers go forward, while we gave them cover, to knock on doors and investigate suspicious activity. I find it absolutely appalling if there is any suspicion that the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland is not fair in dealing with those incredibly gallant men and women. The whole service thoroughly deserved the George Cross, but most of them actually deserved additional decorations. I am absolutely dismayed by what I have heard. I did not realise it was as bad as that. I will take an increased interest in the matter from now on as part of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs.

I am personally indebted to the way the Royal Ulster Constabulary and its officers protected my soldiers and acted when we were out there with them. It was not them and us, and “them” were not Catholics, Protestants, Jews or Buddhists. The Royal Ulster Constabulary did not give a damn who it was going to help—all it wanted to do was help. It is absolutely tragic if there is suspicion that the ombudsman is not giving credit to those extremely gallant men and women.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

RAF Centenary

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Monday 26th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster), as I do on a regular basis; I am always glad to hear his careful comments. It is an honour to speak on this momentous occasion, and it is great to follow such incredible and emotive speeches from right hon. and hon. and gallant Members, who, with their knowledge, make a fantastic contribution to these debates.

I take this opportunity, as others have, to begin by thanking every serving, retired and former member of the RAF. We thank you for your service and sacrifice. The sacrifice was great when the RAF was formed. We all know Winston Churchill’s wonderful grasp of the English language, which is much better than mine will ever be; I often quote him in this House because of his grasp of the English language. He noted in this hallowed Chamber that

“the ‘Battle of France’ is over. I expect that the battle of Britain is about to begin.”—[Official Report, 18 June 1940; Vol. 362, c. 60.]

This was fought and won by a fledgling Air Force. We always admire his inspirational words:

“Never…was so much owed by so many to so few.”—[Official Report, 20 August 1940; Vol. 364, c. 1167.]

In those few words, he wonderfully summed up exactly what the battle of Britain was about, with young men giving their lives with regularity at that time.

As I said earlier to the Secretary of State about the RAF cadets, we have very active RAF cadets in Northern Ireland, particularly in Newtownards in my constituency. It is good to know that what they do there may be the beginnings of a career in the RAF, and many have walked out of Regent House and gone on to serve in the RAF. We are also very aware that many have joined the Army and many have joined the Navy as well, so the cadets are very active in my constituency.

May I thank those involved in the armed forces parliamentary scheme? The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (James Gray) is the chair of that group, Johnny Longbottom helps to keep the wheels turning, and we had Vasco from the RAF. When I look across the House, I see Members who have done that course, including the hon. Member for Copeland (Trudy Harrison) and others on the far side of the Chamber. I believe that every one of us learned so much from that RAF part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which was an absolute pleasure to be on. They brought it alive.

We were very privileged to have the opportunity to go to Akrotiri in Cyprus, but also to Gibraltar and on Operation Biloxi in Romania. The Secretary of State referred to Romania in his introduction. Having visited Operation Biloxi, it was incredible to see the relationship that the RAF has with the Romanian air force. When we saw those from the Romanian air force, its aeroplanes, let us be honest, were not of the most modern standard, but their energy, interest and commitment were incredible and equal to those from the RAF who were there as well. I just want to put on the record our thanks to them.

It is very nice to see the Secretary of State and the Minister for the Armed Forces in their places. If ever there was a tag team that works well, there it is. We are very pleased to see them both in their places and doing well. I say the same to the shadow Ministers, who have a deep interest in this subject matter, and we look forward to their contributions.

As a small boy, along with the many other things a young boy wants to do, I remember always wanting to be the driver of a train, to join the Royal Marines or to be in the Air Force. All those things go through your mind when you are under the age of 10, but then you suddenly find that you wear glasses, your eyesight is not too good and you know that your chances of joining the RAF are gone.

[Bob Stewart]

Did the hon. Gentleman ever have the delight of meeting Colonel Paddy Mayne, DSO three bars, who was from Newtownards?

[Jim Shannon]

No, I did not. I think he had just passed away at the time I was brought into this world.

[Bob Stewart]

I thought you were older than that.

[Jim Shannon]

No, no. I am not older than that. I am not quite sure how to respond to that, but I do know Paddy Mayne’s history—I know it well. We have a statue of him in the square in Newtownards. I was on the council at that time, and I was able to be involved in that particular project. He is a son of Newtownards, and a terribly courageous person. His books are “Boys Own” books. If Members have not read the Blair Mayne story, I can tell them that he was the only man—not the only man, because there were probably others—who did not receive a VC. I would say that he should have had a VC, but we know that he unfortunately had a bit of a problem with authority sometimes, and with that came objections from those at a higher level. If we continue with our confidence and supply arrangement—we will see how that goes—it may yet happen. I have asked my guys to look into that posthumous VC for Blair Mayne. It is something I would be pleased to see.

Why was I interested in the RAF as a small child? It was because there was an RAF squadron base only a few miles from where I lived, RAF Ballyhalbert, and obviously there was the one at Newtownards as well. Today, only the runway lighting and the control tower remain at Ballyhalbert. The stories and the legends were well known and fed many a young man’s dreams of service for Queen and country and the open skies. I did not serve in the RAF, but I was pleased to serve in the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Artillery for 14 and a half years. The RAF has a squadron at Newtownards airport, as well, and there is a strong history of service in the RAF, the Army and the Royal Navy in my constituency.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) was here earlier, and there is a base at Aldergrove in his constituency. The Secretary of State referred earlier to 28 bases across Northern Ireland, but I think we should round it up to 30. That is probably about right. It is something we are all very proud of. We are also very proud of Shorts, as it was known before it became Shorts Bombardier, which built the planes in Newtownards. On the plane over today I read in the Belfast Telegraph about Joe Hendron, the SDLP MP for West Belfast, who told the story of when he was a young boy during the bombings in Belfast and how when he was about to leave the bombs were falling. It is a coincidence that his story was in the paper today.

Ballyhalbert opened provisionally in May 1941 as an RAF Fighter Command base and officially on 28 June of the same year. The primary weapon was the Supermarine Spitfire. A few weeks ago, we had a ceremony in Newtownards, but I will come to that in a second. Suffice it to say that everyone is captivated by Spitfires. The base provided local protection from Luftwaffe raids on Belfast and the rest of the Province. I understand that Belfast was the seventh-most bombed city in the whole of the UK. Other aircraft operated from the base: the Hawker Hurricane, the Bristol Beaufighter, the North American P-51 Mustang and the Boulton Paul Defiant night fighter. Many fighter planes were active there.

During its lifetime, Ballyhalbert was home to personnel of the RAF, the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force, the British Army, the Royal Navy and the United States Army Air Forces, and servicemen from Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Poland also saw duty there and at Newtownards. By the summer of 1941, RAF fighter group No. 82 had become operational, with exclusive responsibility for the defence of Northern Ireland, and its group headquarters was at Stormont. The bunker at Kircubbin, just down from where I live in the Ards peninsula, was the operations room for the Belfast sector, but there is speculation that it was designed to accommodate last ditch defence requirements in the event that Great Britain had been invaded and Westminster had ceased to be the seat of government—that did not happen, thank goodness.

In October 1942, No. 82 group was abolished and the then Senate Chamber at Stormont, now the Northern Ireland Assembly, became the location of the headquarters of the RAF in Northern Ireland. All operational personnel, including those who had been at Kircubbin from the outset, were transferred to Stormont and the sector operations rooms at Kircubbin closed. The Stormont facility was operational until the end of the war.

If right hon. and hon. Members get the opportunity to go to the Northern Ireland Assembly and enjoy one of the tours, they will get the history of Stormont. At the time of the second world war, it was a very big white building, so it was covered in tar, cow manure and grass to make it blend in. With the main driveway up to Stormont and the two arrows—two roads—coming off it, it looked like a bombing run for the Luftwaffe, so it was important to camouflage it. After the war, German prisoners were given the task of removing the tar, cow manure and grass. I am not sure which was longer, their time in prison or the time it took them to take all that there off, but I know one thing: it is a marvellous history for the people there.

The Senate Chamber, too, had an important to play in the story of the RAF. It was used as a war room, and anyone who has the opportunity to tour beautiful historic Stormont should take it, as footage of the Chamber being used as a war room will be there. Northern Ireland also had a significant role during the second world war in that it was Catalinas and Sunderlands flying out of Fermanagh that spotted the Bismarck on the west coast of Ireland. The cat-and-mouse operation in the Atlantic to catch the Bismarck went on for some time, and we played a small role in that.

The week before last, at our cenotaph and memorial garden in the main town of Newtownards, my local borough council unveiled a memorial to the Polish pilots. We have had strong contact with Polish pilots, to whom the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) referred, and we are particularly proud of that. They were stationed at Ballyhalbert and Newtownards. The unveiling was attended by Air Vice Marshal David Niven, who retired just last week. He spoke eloquently about the necessary involvement of Polish expertise and experience, saying that the battle of Britain might have ended differently had it not been for the close co-operation of the Polish men, who left all they knew and gave their all to halt Nazi Germany during the second world war. Some of the pilots who came to Ballyhalbert and Newtownards flew their planes from Poland to the UK and some made their way by other means.

The Polish pilots played a significant role in my constituency, and we recognised that through that memorial. Some of them settled with their families in the Ards peninsula, such as the Denkoskis and the father of my constituent Vanda Henderson. We have a lot of thanks to give to those Polish men and women, and the memorial at Ards is a token of recognition of their great sacrifice.

We owe a great debt to our incredible RAF, which in the second world war and every conflict since has shone as a beacon and inspired new generations, including the RAF Air Cadets at Regent House School, to wish to serve their Queen and country in the open skies. Our freedom always comes at a great cost, and we are eternally thankful for the formation of the Royal Air Force, and eternally grateful to every person who wore its uniform and those who wear it today.

Centenary of the Armistice

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

I have given an analogy from the past, and when the hon. Gentleman intervened I was about to give an analogy for the future. I too have been privileged to visit Glasnevin cemetery, as have many other Members. I was greatly impressed when we had the opportunity to visit the graves and see what the Republic of Ireland had done to remember those who had given their lives. Some of the history that we heard about was incredible.

[Bob Stewart]

May I pursue that point? I understand from what I heard last night that, as support for the poppy has grown in the Republic of Ireland, there has been a surge in the number of people from the Republic who want to join the British Army again. Is that not wonderful?

[Jim Shannon]

It almost makes me cheer. I am very pleased to hear about it, but it comes as no surprise to me, because there has always been a tradition of service in the Republic of Ireland. As I said earlier, the fact that 130,000 people from the Republic volunteered to fight in the first world war was an indication of their wish to do so. The Irish Guards have a strong association with us, and in my town a large proportion of recruits are from the Republic. They are quite happy to swear allegiance to Her Majesty and to the British Army, and to do what they are instructed to do in their job.

I am also pleased—this is relevant to what has just been said by the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—that we are beginning to see a tradition of change. War memorials down south that were going to rack and ruin have been spruced up, and memorial services are now being held as we hold them in Northern Ireland, over a period of time. Great changes are coming, and indeed change has come, but some people may still be unwilling to accept the new future.

I want us to stand shoulder to shoulder, regardless of religious belief, political ideals or anything else. I long for us to stand in simple gratitude and respect for those whose blood has marked the way and allowed us our right to debate these issues in the House tonight, along with the right to abstain—if that is what people want to do—and the right to voice opposing opinions, as we often do in the House, although we are still friends at the end of it. All those rights we have for one reason only: the sacrifice that was made with us in mind.

Some Members have referred to the role for youth. In my constituency, there is an incredible turnout on Remembrance Sunday for all the parades that I go to. How proud I am—indeed, how proud we would all be—of the uniformed church groups and the Army, Air Force and naval cadets: young people who are just starting out in life, but who want to serve in uniform. We also have an opportunity to see some of our older soldiers, although every year we look around and see one or two fewer. It is the same for all of us. That is life, but a new generation is coming in, and that new generation will follow all of us, and all those who have left us. It is good to have a remembrance service of that kind in my constituency, and I suspect that the same applies to every constituency that enrols uniformed organisations and young people to make their contribution. They understand very well what is going on.

I wear my poppy, and so do my sons, who, in turn, have taught my granddaughters what it means to remember—not to idealise, not to seek to alter historical fact, and not to make any proclamation other than that, at the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. That is what today’s debate is about. I long, in this special year, for those who have determined to disrespect the meaning of the poppy, and who simply do not care enough to buy a poppy or perhaps even to attend a remembrance service, instead to stand shoulder to shoulder with those who attend annually, and to express themselves in that way.

Let us all stand and take a minute simply to say, “We remember, we are grateful, and we will seek to ensure that the lessons learned through your tremendous sacrifice will be passed on to future generations”—which I know that they will. That is not just a phrase, but my enduring promise: I will remember them.

Bahrain

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Tuesday 11th September 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman’s words are very wise. We look to the Minister for a response on that, which is what this debate is all about. Can we encourage Bahrain to get back to where it was? If we can do that, I think we will be moving in the right direction. I am sure the Minister will refer to that point in his response.

I believe in the friendship that we have with Bahrain. British rule was relinquished in 1971 and yet we are in a situation where Bahrain is comfortable housing our military base. We have a large number of British expats working and living in Bahrain and many Bahraini students attend universities in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We are friends, but I wonder whether we have told our friends what they need to know—that their human rights record is not acceptable. While we are thankful for recent changes in legislation that give more rights to women and children, there must be bigger steps and more practical changes. That is what we are asking for. We are not saying that they have not moved—they are, in a way, a beacon for other countries in the region—but we need to highlight issues where human rights abuses have taken place.

[Bob Stewart]

I remind the House that it has taken us 800 years to get our human rights in order. Bahrain started in 1971. We want the process to be as fast as possible, but let us have evolution rather than revolution, because revolution is very dangerous.

[Jim Shannon]

We are not waiting 700 years for change in Bahrain. I have the utmost respect for the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but this issue has to move faster than that. We, our children, our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren will all have passed before it happens if we have to wait for so many years. We cannot wait that long. That is why this debate is important.

The Minister will hopefully respond to our requests. I ask him—I have the highest regard for him—whether he feels that we have used our friendship in an adequate fashion to bring about change. Although it is certainly true that we are not our brother’s keeper and can never be held accountable for the actions of Bahrain, can we morally claim to have done all we can to highlight and push for human rights in that nation? In May 2017, the UN Committee Against Torture stated that Bahrain’s oversight bodies such as the ombudsman and the National Institute for Human Rights—both recipients of UK training—are ineffective and not independent, even after the training we have given them to help them move in that direction. We must ask why they are ineffective and not independent.

In June 2018, the European Parliament condemned the NIHR for having

“repeatedly justified the human rights violations undertaken by the Bahraini Government”.

In July 2018, the UN Human Rights Committee reiterated that the NIHR

“lacks sufficient independence to perform its functions”.

I ask the Minister whether the Foreign and Commonwealth Office agrees with the assessment by the UN and the EU of UK-funded oversight bodies. That is the question they ask. We need to ask the Minister that question today.

The fact is that the Government have never acknowledged any wrongdoings by these bodies, despite significant evidence, including a report published by the Bahrain Institute for Rights and Democracy and Reprieve. My concern is that that appears to show an acceptance of torture, which I truly hope is not the case. I hope the Minister will respond to that.

I press the Minister for an answer to that question, and I ask about the Department’s assessment of the aforementioned report. What steps are being taken to address the appearance of what some have labelled in conversations with me as complicity with the methods used? There are very serious allegations about indiscretions and human rights abuses, and we have a duty in this House to take them up on behalf of those people through the Minister.

I understand that we no longer rule Bahrain—that ended almost 50 years ago—but we do have influence and some sway, and I remain unconvinced that we can morally hold our hands up and say we are doing all in our power. We have spent £5 million since 2012 on a package of technical assistance to Bahrain, largely to improve the Gulf monarchy’s poor human rights record. That is to be applauded, but it could and should be argued—indeed, it has been presented to me—that in six years, millions of pounds-worth of UK technical assistance to Bahrain has failed to reform that country’s human rights as much as would be hoped or could be expected.

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. I also look forward to the shadow Minister’s speech, because he always makes very balanced and helpful contributions.

Freedom of Religion or Belief

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Thursday 1st March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered freedom of religion or belief.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck. This debate is specifically about how the UK Government can work to advance the right of freedom of religion or belief at the 37th session of the United Nations Human Rights Council. It is a pleasure to speak on these issues. I thank all the hon. and right hon. Members who have taken the time to come on a Thursday afternoon. There are lots of reasons to say, “No, I cannot be here.” I was speaking at the Christian Solidarity Worldwide event on Wednesday, and I reminded people that there would be snow on Thursday. I said, “Maybe the snow will keep you here.” I said that graciously—I do not want to keep Members for anything but the right reason—but there were Members who had to go home early and Members who were unable to get home and so have come. We are pleased that everyone has made the time to be here. I thank you, Ms Buck, for chairing this debate, and we look forward to significant and helpful contributions from all Members.

I declare an interest as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom of religion or belief, which speaks on behalf of those with Christian belief, those with other beliefs and those with no belief. I am also the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for the Pakistani minorities. I want to put those two things on record before we start the debate.

I thank Members for participating in this important debate and for continuing to speak out. Every Member here has spoken out on behalf of those who are persecuted for their religion or belief. I also put on record my thanks, in anticipation, to the Minister. We know how much commitment he has for these issues. He is a Minister who will respond to our requests to him in the way that every Member believes in their hearts that he would. It is pleasing to see the shadow Minister in his place. We know he has the heart for this issue, and we look forward to his significant contribution. I look forward to hearing the comments of other Members on how the Government will raise the issue in the UN Human Rights Council session, which kicked off on Monday. We are having this debate today because we want to send our comments to that session. Hopefully the participation we have in Westminster Hall today will go to ministerial level, governmental level and then to the UN.

As most Members in the Chamber will know, the UN Human Rights Council is responsible for strengthening the promotion and protection of human rights. At each session of the UNHRC, member states come together to discuss human rights violations, give them international attention and make recommendations. We will use the debate to highlight issues that we hope can then feed into the UN human rights commission, which is also meeting. That is why I am very thankful for the opportunity to have this debate, so that Members can raise freedom of religious or belief issues with the Government, and so that the issues can be brought to the UN and given the international attention they desperately deserve.

As Members will know, I have campaigned for many years to raise freedom of religion or belief issues in my role as chair of the all-party group for international freedom of religion or belief. I hope to discuss some of those issues in the hope that it will help the Minister and his team to advance the right to FORB at the UN Human Rights Council. As the debate unfolds and as people participate and make contributions, we will form a joint opinion of what we want among all the parties here, the shadow Minister and the Minister, and that will go up into the heart of Government.

I want to speak about five issues; other Members will speak about others. They are: the mass violence of armed Fulani Muslim herders in their conflict with Christian farmers in Nigeria; the criminalisation of blasphemy and religious conversion in Nepal; the continued state-sponsored persecution of the Baha’is in Iran; forced conversion in Pakistan; and abuses of freedom of religion by the Eritrean state and the ongoing imprisonment of Patriarch Abune Antonios—given my Ulster Scots accent, I hope that sounded as it should.

Sessions of the UNHRC represent an excellent opportunity to increase international attention on an issue, so it would be remiss of me not to use this debate to shine a light on the growing violence of armed Muslim Fulani herders in their conflict with Christian farmers in Nigeria. Since 2001, climate change, over- population and extremist religious interpretations have combined to cause mass violence between those two groups in Nigeria’s middle belt. Despite rarely being discussed in the media, the global terrorism index estimates that up to 60,000 people have been killed in the conflict since it began 17 years ago. Hundreds of thousands have been displaced, and thousands of villages, churches, mosques, livestock and businesses have been destroyed, at great cost to local and state economies.

There is no doubt that violence has been committed by actors on both sides of the conflict, but the Fulani herdsmen militia, armed with sophisticated weaponry including AK-47s, is thought to have murdered more men, women and children in 2015 and 2016 than Boko Haram. We all know how cruel, brutal and violent Boko Haram is. In 2014, it was recognised by the global terrorism index as the fourth deadliest terrorist group in the world. The scale of the violence is unprecedented. At the federal and state level, the Nigerian Government have long failed to respond adequately.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I declare that I, too, am a member of the all-party group for international freedom of religion or belief. I am most concerned about what is happening in Nigeria because I do not think we know how many people in the country have been displaced by the violence. It is largely unsung in the press, but having looked at it, I would estimate that at least 50,000 or 60,000 people are displaced for religious reasons within Nigeria.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and his membership of the all-party group. He is there, as we all are, for the same purpose: to try to make lives better and to fight—not physically, but verbally and emotionally—for those across the world who are persecuted.

The Nigerian Government have developed neither early-warning systems nor rapid response mechanisms to violence, and the federal police are rarely deployed. That worries me. Actors on the ground who spoke with the US Commission on International Religious Freedom universally reported that when the police are deployed, they stick to main roads and do not venture into more rural areas where the violence occurs. If they do not go where the violence is and try to stop it, it does not work. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the problem. As Nigeria is a member of the UNHRC, I hope that the Minister and his team will urge the Nigerian Government to do more to defend their citizens. I hope the Minister will offer support to help them do just that.

I will now discuss the situation with freedom of religion or belief in Nepal, which is also a member of the UNHRC. As the Minister knows, article 26(3) of the Nepalese constitution prohibits

“any act or conduct that may jeopardise other’s religion”

or

“convert another person from one religion to another”.

On 8 August 2017, the Nepalese Parliament passed a criminal code Bill that strengthens those constitutional restrictions and outlines significant criminal penalties for offenders. In other words, it is another level of persecution, this time legal. The Bill greatly threatens the rights of religious minorities in Nepal, as the broad definition of the criminal code’s provisions means they can be applied to legitimate expressions of religion or belief. For example, the charitable activities of religious groups or speaking about one’s faith could be considered to be attempts to convert another person. The wording of the Bill is also similar to the wording of blasphemy laws in neighbouring countries, which have been widely misused to settle personal scores, to target religious minorities and to further extremist agendas. The introduction of the Bill is concerning for advocates of human rights and freedom of religion or belief.

What is even more concerning is that the Bill was signed into law on the very same day that Nepal was elected to be a member of the UN Human Rights Council. On Nepal’s appointment to the UNHRC, its permanent representative to the United Nations said:

“This election offers post-conflict Nepal an unprecedented opportunity to prove its worth as an international contributor to the cause of human rights in Nepal and around the world”.

I challenge Nepal to prove to the world that what it is saying in words will happen, because the legal position in Nepal at the moment is contrary to the UN Human Rights Council and what it says. I hope, as I am sure everybody in the room does, that Nepal intends to take this opportunity. I hope that we will challenge Nepal, and that it will change its laws on blasphemy and religious conversion. Nepal’s new role means that it is even more important that the country takes protecting the rights of religious minorities seriously.

It is also important to remember that between 2014 and 2020, the Department for International Development will spend approximately £600 million in Nepal. The UK Government thus have significant influence, through which they can encourage the Nepalese Government to promote freedom of religious belief, not in words, but with action. I ask that the UK Government use that influence, and hold bilateral meetings with Nepalese representatives at the United Nations Human Rights Council, to encourage Nepal to live up to its obligations as a member of the UNHRC.

Another area of grave concern for those who take an interest in human rights and religious freedom is the plight of the Baha’i community in Iran. We have some people in the Gallery today who are here to represent the Baha’is, and we are here to represent them as Members of Parliament and from a legal point of view. The Baha’is in Iran continue to face systematic, state-sponsored persecution. This session of the UNHRC happens to fall during the second cycle of the universal periodic review of Iran’s human rights record. As part of the review, many UNHRC countries have made recommendations to Iran on how it could improve its treatment of the Baha’i community. Those recommendations have covered detention, access to education, access to employment and non-discrimination in legislation. I am sad to say, however, that it seems that none of them has been implemented, which is frustrating.

Moreover, since the election of Dr Hassan Rouhani as President in 2013, ostensibly on a reformist agenda, more than 150 Baha’is have been arrested. As of January 2018, 77 Baha’is were imprisoned because of their beliefs, and more than 30,000 pieces of anti-Baha’i propaganda have been disseminated in the Iranian media. We are here today to speak for the Baha’is and to reassure them. They are people whom we will probably never meet, but we meet their representatives.

I understand that the UK Government are likely to co-sponsor and support a resolution on human rights in Iran at this session of the UNHRC. Perhaps the Minister will be kind enough to confirm that? I certainly would welcome it, and I look forward to that confirmation. The resolution, if adopted, would renew the mandate of the special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Iran, a post previously held by the late Asma Jahangir. I should like to return to the tragic and untimely passing of Mrs Jahangir later.

Given the sad absence of a report from the special rapporteur on Iran at this session, would the Government kindly consider making a statement during the interactive dialogue on Iran, referencing the dire situation of the Baha’is in that country? Of course, many serious violations of human rights require attention, but I suggest that a statement on Iran is needed to emphasise the intensification of abuses against Iran’s unrecognised Baha’i minority. If people cannot access education, either at secondary or higher level, are unable to own a business or a house, cannot access healthcare, and do not have freedom of religious belief, something needs to be done. The treatment of the Baha’is can, in many ways, be seen as a litmus test for Iran’s sincerity on wider questions of human rights progress.

Another vital issue that I would like to raise is forced conversion and marriage in Pakistan. Pakistani non-governmental organisations, such as the Movement for Solidarity and Peace, have estimated that at least 1,000 Hindu and Christian girls are kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam, and forcibly married or sold into prostitution annually in Pakistan. I cannot begin to understand what has happened to those young girls. The horror and brutality that they go through is unbelievable, and most be recognised by the Government at the UNHRC.

As the Minister will no doubt be aware, Pakistan had a universal periodic review of its human rights record in November 2017. As part of that process, Pakistan received and accepted three recommendations about tackling forced conversion and forced marriage. Pakistan accepted that something has to be done, which is a welcome development, but there are concerns that the recommendations will not be pursued. I am aware of situations in the past where recommendations have been made and no progress has followed, which is unfortunate. I do not want just a verbal confirmation that Pakistan will do something; I want to see actions, because actions are better than words.

In November 2016, the Sindh provincial assembly unanimously passed a Bill against forced religious conversions. The Bill was sent to the governor for approval, but in January 2017 he refused, citing concerns raised by religious scholars and political parties that the clauses were against the teachings of Islam. Such pressure has also impeded the establishment of a national council for minorities’ rights. In 2014, the supreme court ordered the Government of Pakistan to set up such a body to monitor cases of violence and persecution against minorities. The court also ordered the establishment of a special police force to protect minorities and their places of worship. As far as I am aware, those two bodies are yet to be established. Again, there has been verbal commitment, but no action. Let us see if we can move things on. Would the Minister be willing to speak to his Pakistani counterpart to find out about the status of the Sindh Bill and those new bodies? I am also aware of the problems of education, of access to books, and of books that tell stories that are slanted against Christians.

Proscription of Hezbollah

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Thursday 25th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is always a pleasure to speak in this House, but especially on this issue. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) and all other Members who have spoken. If I may pick out one Member, the right hon. Member for Enfield North (Joan Ryan) set the scene very well for us all. When she asked me to accompany her to the Backbench Business Committee to request this debate, I was happy to do so, as I wanted to take part in the debate. As someone who has lived through a terrorist conflict and who bears the emotional and political scars that other—some very gallant—Members have, this topic is of great interest to me.

The first question we must ask ourselves is, what is the first duty of Government? As clearly outlined by every Member who has spoken, the first duty of any Government is to protect the public. Are we protecting the public? Can we do better? Yes, we can. Protection cannot, of course, be guaranteed; there will always be those determined to break through or get around whatever security measures our Government have put in place. But it is the Government’s job to do what they can to ensure that in a free society people can go about their lives facing the smallest possible risk of crime or terrorist attack. The debate is taking place because there has been a failure to provide that protection.

On 4 June 2017, the day after the London bridge terror attack in which eight people were killed and 48 injured, the Prime Minister—my Prime Minister, everyone’s Prime Minister—stood in Downing Street and said:

“While we have made significant progress in recent years, there is—to be frank—far too much tolerance of extremism in our country.

So we need to become far more robust in identifying it and stamping it out—across the public sector and across society. That will require some difficult and often embarrassing conversations, but the whole of our country needs to come together to take on this extremism”.

On 22 June, the hon. Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick), following a statement on terrorism, called on the Home Secretary to ban Hezbollah. To support his request he gave a first-hand account of what he cited as a celebration of the terror group Hezbollah that he witnessed on 18 June at an Al-Quds rally in central London. He explained in some detail how people were walking down the streets of this city waving the flag of the genocidal terror group Hezbollah—that is what it is—while simultaneously mocking the British laws that allowed them to do so. He described how frustrating that was. There can surely be no greater and more blatant illustration of the Prime Minister’s view that we are far too tolerant of extremists. That shows why this debate is important.

It is also important to remember the context. In 2017, a year marred by terror attacks in Manchester and London, our Government allowed that march to take place. I question why that was allowed.

In response to the hon. Member for Newark, the Home Secretary agreed to come back and discuss the matter with him and if necessary to come back to this House. I understand that there has been a chasm of silence since then, which concerns me. As with many issues, there may be a belief that, if we let matters sit and cool, sometimes people do not demand firm action to be taken. This is not one of those times and the Home Secretary’s commitment must be actioned.

I thank the right hon. Member for Enfield North and the colleagues who backed the call for this debate. We can have a full discussion today and we will hopefully have action. We look to the Minister. The call for action is coming from Members in all parts of the House.

Let me make it clear that this is not a campaign to satisfy a handful of MPs; it goes much wider than that. In a campaign organised by the Israel Britain Alliance and its numerous partners, more than 10,000 people have written to their MPs to register their concerns about the Government’s delusion that Hezbollah is two separate organisations and to highlight the Government’s dereliction of their first duty to protect the public. For the record, the publicly available evidence that Hezbollah is a single organisation with a single command structure has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt. In addition, the Government’s own assessment of Hezbollah’s capability renders their stance untenable and demands the protection that the evidence points to.

I am concerned that we are not being given the full story about the need that is said to be there; it has been said that there may be some evidential base out there. We want to see that in the open. The Government are also aware of the Hezbollah sleepers and they are watching them as well. Let us make it clear to those who think they are not being watched that they are indeed being watched and we know who they are. As I said, I am concerned that we are not being given the full story. Only three days ago, in answer to a question from the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), the Minister said:

“The military and political activities of Hizballah are distinct, though links exist between the senior leaders of the political and military wings. The UK proscribed Hizballah’s External Security Organisation in March 2001 and in 2008 the proscription was extended to Hizballah’s military apparatus.”

My concern is that, by dragging our feet over taking the necessary action, we are placing the British people in grave danger. It is our responsibility to look after them.

[Bob Stewart]

Please do not think that I support Hezbollah. All I say is that there might be some reason that we cannot know about—that even I, who have been in military intelligence, cannot know about—for not banning the political wing of Hezbollah in this country. It might be something very important, and it might be that the decision has been made to protect us from a much more difficult situation. I do not know.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. and gallant Gentleman for his intervention, but let us make the position clear today: we want the proscription of Hezbollah. That is the thrust of this debate. That is what we are about. There are not two wings in Hezbollah.

Fatalities in Northern Ireland and British Military Personnel

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Thursday 25th January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

That speech by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) was astonishing and deeply moving. Thank you.

This is personal to me. I am one of the 300,000 soldiers who served in Northern Ireland. I completed seven tours there as an infantry officer. I spent three years there. I first went in the early months of 1970 as a 20-year-old second lieutenant. To be honest, I was utterly shocked that on my first tour I was operating on the streets of my country with weapons. That was not the sort of soldiering I had expected. After all, I had been at Sandhurst since 1967. We withdrew from Aden in 1967, we had a year of peace in 1968, and then the British Army was sent into Northern Ireland in 1970. I was very uncomfortable about it.

When I went to Northern Ireland just after the start of 1970, we were deployed to Londonderry, principally to protect the Catholics. I even had a Catholic girlfriend for a time. I was unmarried. [Laughter.]

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

We’re a confessional.

[Bob Stewart]

I thank the hon. Gentleman; he always gets me.

In my seven tours, I certainly witnessed bombings and fatality shootings involving military personnel. I want to centre on how we felt and how we approached it. Our approach started with our instructions, which were called, “Instructions for Opening Fire in Northern Ireland”—the so-called yellow card. I have mine here. This is the 1980 version. It is meant to fit into a pocket, so that soldiers have it with them the whole time. The problem is, when a soldier is in contact, they cannot get the card and think, “Oh, what can I do?” It has to be remembered. It has to be built into a soldier what he or she should do in a case where they might use firearms. It has to be instinctive.

So that people understood the rules, there were huge instructions on pre-operational tour training. The rules were clear and pretty precise as to what a soldier could and could not do. Let me read them, because they are on one piece of paper. This had to be in a soldier’s mind: we were to use minimum force in all situations, and open fire only as a last resort. No live rounds were to be carried in the breech, unless we were ordered otherwise or were about to fire. Challenges were always to be given before firing, unless to do so would increase the risk of death or grave injury to us or anyone we considered was being engaged by terrorists. Challenges were to be clear: “Army. Stop or I fire!” We were ordered to open fire only if someone was committing an act likely to endanger life and there was no other way to stop them.

There are examples on the yellow card of when a soldier can open fire:

“Someone firing or about to fire a weapon; someone planting, detonating or throwing an explosive device, including a petrol bomb”.

in the early 1970s, petrol bombs on William Street in Londonderry put a third of my platoon in hospital with burns before any firing took place. We did not fire; we did not even consider it. We did not even draw our batons.

The next example is

“Someone driving a car at a person, and there is no other way to stop him.”

Some hon. Members may be old enough to remember the case of Corporal Lee Clegg, who was convicted of murder in 1993. He fired at a car as it approached him, and as it passed by he turned around and shot through the window. The yellow card is precise: he was not in danger any more, so he should not have fired. I will return to that.

The examples continue:

“Only aimed shots were to be fired; no more rounds than necessary were to be fired; and be careful not to hit anyone who is innocent.”

Those rules were put into all of us. We practised them. We spent ages in a classroom learning them. We also practised scenarios in exercises, and were judged on whether we had done the right thing.

To decide whether to open fire was an enormous decision, and often—I saw it several times—indecision and worry about whether to open fire resulted in it not happening until it was too late. Fire could have been returned. We all knew that shooting incidents would be investigated, and we had to justify what we had done.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak on this matter, Sir David. I thank hon. Members who have spoken, and in particular my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). He is a friend, and we share a bit of banter on many occasions, but we have also had the opportunity to serve in uniform, and that is something we both recognise. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), who made one of the best speeches I have heard in a long time—one that resonated with all of us, because it was straight from his heart. Well done to him.

I also thank those who produced the report. Its high quality and the hard work that has gone into it are evident, and on behalf of the right-thinking people of Northern Ireland, and those who served Queen and country there, I thank the Committee for investigating with an impartial eye, for not being swayed by propaganda, and for seeking to do right by those who laid their physical and mental health on the line for the safety of every corner of this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I declare an interest, having served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Territorial Army for 11 and a half years as a part-time soldier. I was pleased to serve in uniform; it was something I wanted to do since I was a young boy, and when the opportunity came when I was 18, I did it. The report is clear that between August 1969 and July 2007, over 300,000 soldiers served in Northern Ireland as part of Operation Banner, the longest continuous campaign in the history of the British Army. Those soldiers were deployed to support the Royal Ulster Constabulary and other security forces, and at the height of the campaign more than 27,000 military personnel were operating out of bases in more than 100 locations across the whole Province. I am proud to have been one of those men in part-time uniform. Operation Banner resulted in the death of 1,441 serving personnel, 722 of whom were killed in paramilitary attacks. Over the same period, British soldiers were responsible for the deaths of around 300 people, some of whom were civilians. That fact sets the scene very well.

Imagine that all around you, your brothers in arms are being blown up, trapped or beaten to death. You are under command and order, and you know that the only way of surviving is to keep your head down and follow orders. You do that. You see the unbelievable and touch the untouchable, and 30 years later, you have flashbacks of the unforgettable face of death and destruction. You rebuild your life, raise your children and grandchildren, and try to return to civilian life and forget what you have seen. You get to your state pension and settle into retirement. Then, one day, you get a knock on the door: someone is preparing a case to prosecute you for following those orders.

If they asked for a description of your colleague’s last seconds as he gasped for breath in your arms, having been blown up, you could easily describe that; it is irrevocably, indelibly imprinted on your mind. However, asking for details of individual outings and cases will be very different. You followed orders; that was the only detail you really needed to know. The hon. Member for Beckenham outlined exactly what a soldier does, in case we needed real, live evidence of that. He put it succinctly: soldiers followed orders. They did not question an order or ask for a brief on it; they followed it. That was the job they did.

By interviewing these men, we are not seeking justice but allowing a minority of people to seek vengeance, not against specific perpetrators, but against anyone who dared to wear a uniform. That was the only crime: being British and serving the Queen. To this day, that is enough for some people to want to destroy someone. The question is why some people are facilitating that, and how we can stop it. Figures show that investigations into former Army personnel account for a minority of legacy investigation branch cases, but that is still a disproportionately high number—some 30%—given that the total level of Army involvement in killings stands at 10%.

I have asked before in this Chamber why the life of someone killed in a skirmish with the Army is worth more time, effort and money than the life of someone killed by a unrepentant republican terrorist, who is walking around with a mayoral chain around his neck. We all know cases where that has happened; I named a very clear one in the House of Commons in the last term. That life is not worth more; it should not be. We must cut off the ability of those with a litigious republican agenda, who are determined to rewrite history, to weave a web of conspiracy theory and collusion, and make it seem like it was ever okay to bring workmen out of a van, let one of a certain religion run, and murder the rest in cold blood. The Kingsmill massacre has been very real in many people’s minds over the last period of time.

Those are the people whom some seek to appease through this continued attack on service personnel. It has to end. For the sake of real justice it has to stop. By all means, if soldiers lured civilians into an area by means of a honey trap and murdered them, let us investigate that, regardless of the uniform. But that is not the way it was; it was the other way around for those three Scottish soldiers. I tabled an early-day motion for them just a short time ago. I ask: where is their justice? There is not a level playing field, and it needs to be levelled.

Lexie Cummings’s family, from Strabane in West Tyrone, need the closure that has been given to those who sought the investigation into Bloody Sunday. My cousin Kenneth Smyth’s family mourn still. Do they not deserve the time that has been wasted on dragging old men out of their beds on the mainland and asking them questions that were above their pay grade, when they simply followed orders in a country where possibly half the people despised them for their uniform, and perhaps half of those people were willing to do something about it?

[Bob Stewart]

I want to pick up on one point that the hon. Gentleman— my very good friend—said. He said that soldiers followed orders. The decision to open fire was an individual matter; in the vast majority of cases, soldiers did not open fire because someone ordered them to. I cannot think of any cases where people opened fire on an order. They opened fire because they made the decision, based on the yellow card.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Clearly, the yellow card was given by the British Army for guidance on what to do, and soldiers followed that, so the soldiers on the ground followed the rules. There was not a man over their shoulder saying, “Right, fire now.” They made the decision based on the rules, which were clearly laid down for them. I had a yellow card myself, and I still keep it—as a bit of a keepsake, if for no other reason.

I will say it again: if soldiers stepped beyond their role and knowingly and willingly committed offences, then that is very different from what is happening here. I ask everyone to please see the difference.

I support the Committee’s recommendations, and appeal to anyone with any sense of decency and natural justice to do the same—except for a few minor parts that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East and others have mentioned; for that reason, we would not endorse everything that the Chair of the Committee, the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), said.

The Government need to act. I appeal to them to respond to those who wore a uniform. As one who still lives under threat—not of prosecution, but because of my British service life, as other gallant and very gallant hon. Members have said—I ask the Government to please make best use of their resources. That means not persecuting—I use that word deliberately—men who did no more than wear their uniform and follow orders while under guerrilla and open warfare. Minister, decent people have had enough. People who were in the RUC, Prison Service, UDR or British Army and their families have been traumatised enough. I ask him to please stop appeasing the minority of people who cannot be appeased until they get what they wish for and we are wiped from their sight, and to do what is right and honourable for those who so honourably served Queen and country.

I apologise, Sir David, for the fact that I shall shortly have to retire; I have already asked permission of you, the Minister and the Shadow Minister.

International Freedom of Religion or Belief Day

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Thursday 26th October 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his knowledge of these issues and for his intervention. If he had been here at the beginning, he would have heard me mention that we are here to speak about those of a Christian belief, those with other beliefs and those with no belief. That is important, and it was endorsed by everyone in the room. The right hon. Gentleman will be encouraged to know that that was the case.

We are not always aware of its work, but Christian Solidarity Worldwide—some of its representatives might be in the Gallery today—made it its business to speak on behalf of a person jailed in the Philippines because he is an atheist. Representatives of Christian Solidarity Worldwide went to speak to him, engage with him and help him. We should be aware that many organisations who are stakeholders in that group do that already.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I ask the hon. Gentleman—my good and honourable friend—whether, to his knowledge, there is any Christian country that does not allow all religions to flourish within its borders.

Criminal Law (Northern Ireland)

Debate between Jim Shannon and Bob Stewart

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First, I welcome the announcement that the Minister has made today. It is important we have every opportunity in Northern Ireland to address issues in whatever way we can, and one of the things in our armoury is non-jury trials.

Right hon., hon., and hon. and gallant Members have referred to some of the activities in Northern Ireland over the last period. The rise in paramilitary and criminal activity in my constituency has caused me great concern as its Member of Parliament. I have had meetings with the PSNI, and I intend to have another meeting just next week with local councillors to address the issue. That paramilitary and criminal activity includes making drugs available to all levels of society almost with impunity, which scares and worries me, and we need to address that issue. We also have paramilitary activity in relation to protection rackets, trafficking and prostitution. These people have their fingers in every pie they can, and they do everything they can to be involved in money creation. We have to address those issues, and we have to deal with the godfathers—those who are behind these things, pulling the strings. We therefore need this legislation, which enables us, in cases where it is appropriate, to take on those people and to put them in prison, which is where they should be.

We are looking forward to the holiday break and to our tremendous and glorious 12 July celebration, when everything good culturally and historically will be on show. I invite all right hon. and hon. Members to come to Northern Ireland to experience some of those wonderful things. I know that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), has had the opportunity to come over many times to see them at first hand. He has also been along to some of the association dinners we have had, and those have been good occasions.

[Bob Stewart]

He would have been, wouldn’t he?

[Jim Shannon]

If there is a free dinner, there is an occasion to be there—[Interruption.] Well, it was a non-alcoholic event, but there you are. It is always good to have the interest of Members of the House. The fact that Members are participating in the debate, or that they are just in the Chamber, indicates that there is a real interest in Northern Ireland, and we appreciate that.

We have to take on and respond effectively to paramilitary activity and the clear dissident activities—the bomb attacks and the murder attempts—there have been in the Province. It is worth reminding ourselves of some of the statistics and of how they compare with the situation in 2015. We have had five security-related deaths—two more than in 2015. We have had 29 bombings, as other hon. Members have mentioned. We have had 61 shooting incidents—25 more than in 2015. We have had 66 paramilitary assaults—14 more than in 2015. There is clearly a need to address the rising tide in paramilitary activity through this legislation.

As the Minister said, the rate of non-jury trial usage in Northern Ireland is only 2%. However, it is critical that we have non-jury trials in our armoury and the ability to use them when necessary to catch those involved in criminal activity and put them in jail, which is where they belong.

It is therefore welcome that the Minister and our Government, led by the Prime Minister and her Cabinet—let us be quite clear about this—support this legislation, and that they are fully committed to ensuring that criminal activities across Northern Ireland are severely dealt with. If non-jury trials are a method of achieving that, let us use them, irrespective of what the issue may be. We can all then ensure that criminal activities across the whole of Northern Ireland decrease and that we have normality—we all look towards normality.

We live in a different Northern Ireland today than we did many years ago, but there are still some steps to take. Along with the Minister, the shadow Minister and other Members who have spoken, my colleagues and I are particularly interested to see the Northern Ireland Assembly back on the road again and democracy in place. However, with great respect, that can happen only if other parties accept the reality of the situation and enter into talks that can deliver the long-term visionary peace that we all want—a peace that is acceptable to the Unionist population, which we clearly support.