Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jeremy Hunt and Philippa Whitford

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Jeremy Hunt)]

Good morning, Mr Speaker. Brexit was a choice made by the British people and it remains a big opportunity for the economy. Rather than relitigating that debate, this Government are committed to embracing those opportunities.

[Dr Whitford]

Prior to the EU referendum, the Bank of England warned that Brexit would seriously damage the UK economy, weakening the pound and causing inflation. The Government have now delayed import checks on animal and food products for the fifth time, because the costs would add to inflation. Does that mean the Chancellor finally accepts that Brexit is contributing to the UK’s cost of living crisis?

[Jeremy Hunt]

No, but of course we are sensitive about the timing of introducing those changes because of cost of living pressures. I am sad to have seen, since we last met in the House, the hon. Lady announce that she is stepping down; we have much in common on patient safety. On the NHS, she will know that because of Brexit an extra £14.6 billion is being directed to public services every year, including the NHS and including in Scotland.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Jeremy Hunt and Philippa Whitford

Report stage
Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whitford]

It is not just that patients prefer to see a doctor long term. There are safety issues when locums in acute specialties move from hospital to hospital, particularly if they are dealing with an acute case. They do not know where things are or who to phone; passwords and phone numbers change. There is a real safety issue with having too many locum staff in the very exposed acute services.

[Jeremy Hunt]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady, who knows about acute services. I also point to recent evidence from Norway that shows the same for general practice: patients who see the same GP over and over again go to A&E departments less than patients who see different GPs.

[Jeremy Hunt]

My right hon. Friend is right that there are problems with the GP contract. I do not want to get into too many discussions about doctors’ contracts in this very consensual debate, but Conservative Members have to take responsibility for not having remedied the pensions anomaly, which gives people an incentive to retire much earlier than we would want. We have to address that issue.

Lots of people might reasonably ask whether I did enough to address the issues in the nearly six years that I was Health Secretary. The answer is that I set up five new medical schools and increased by 25% the number of doctors, nurses and midwives we train. However, that decision was taken five years ago and it takes seven years to train a doctor, so not a single extra doctor has yet joined the workforce as a result.

That is the nub of the problem: the number of doctors, nurses and other professionals we train depends on the priorities of the current Secretary of State and Chancellor. As a result, we have ended up with a very haphazard system that means that although we spend about the average in western Europe on health, as a proportion of GDP, we have one of the lowest numbers of doctors per head—lower than any European country except Sweden.

[Dr Whitford]

All Governments in the UK are expanding medical school places and trying to train more students, but that has led to a shortage of foundation places. In the first two years after a doctor graduates, they are not allowed to practise outwith a foundation job, and they can never practise if they do not go through a foundation job. In the summer, about 400 young graduates were still struggling to find a place. It took 19 years from my entering medical school to my becoming a consultant surgeon. We need to think not just about medical school, but about the whole pathway.

[Jeremy Hunt]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Medical school, the foundation years and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) said, the retention of staff—all those things need to be built into long-term planning and baked into the system.

That long-term planning strikes a contrast, if I may say so, with some of the short-termism that we have seen recently. Even in the recent Budget and spending review, the budget for Health Education England, which funds the training of doctors in this country, was not settled. Although I think that the proposed merger with NHS England is probably the right thing to do, I fear it will mean that the budget is not settled for many more months, at precisely the moment when the workforce crisis is the biggest concern for the majority of people in the NHS.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Hunt]

I thank the hon. Lady, who before entering this place spent her time campaigning to support NHS and care staff. She speaks with great experience, and I think that the fundamental point she makes is very important. Unless there is long-term strategic planning, when we have a priority such as the one we have at the moment of tackling the backlog, we will often make progress on that priority by sucking in staff from other areas, which then suffer. That is an unintended consequence which happened when I was Health Secretary, and I fear that it will happen again without a long-term strategic framework.

Amendment 10 has wide support. It is supported by 50 NHS organisations, including every royal college and the British Medical Association—an organisation which, to be honest, is not famous for supporting initiatives from me—and by six Select Committee Chairs and all the main political parties in this place. I am sure that the Government will ultimately accept it, because it is the right thing to do, but if they are intending to vote it down today, I would say to them that every month in which we delay putting this structure in place is a month when we are failing to give hope to NHS staff on the front line.

Let me end by quoting the Israeli politician Abba Eban, who said that

“men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other alternatives.”

Let us prove him wrong today by supporting amendment 10.

[Dr Whitford]

I am delighted to follow the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, and, in this rather unnerving outbreak of consensus and good humour, to mirror his speech and add my support to his amendment on workforce planning.

It is important to remember that healthcare is not delivered by hospital buildings or fancy machines; it is delivered by people to people, which is why the most important asset in any health service is its workforce. As I pointed out in an earlier exchange with the right hon. Gentleman, we need a long-term view, because it takes a long time to train senor specialists. As I said to him, it took 19 years from my entering medical school to my becoming a consultant breast cancer surgeon. We will struggle to work out what specialties we might need in 20 years’ time, because medicine is evolving, but many aspects and many sectors of staff do not change. If we do not get even those right, we are constantly in a position of drought and thirst, and it is not possible for staff to evolve—to pick up new rules, to use new techniques and to develop new services.

Although this workforce strategy would apply only in England, I would encourage consultation with the Health Secretaries and the workforce bodies in the devolved nations, because junior doctors in particular tend to move around during their training. During the junior doctors’ strike, which the right hon. Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) might remember rather painfully, I talked to students on the picket lines whom I had trained. People move around, and it is important that such a strategy does not end up just sucking staff out of the three devolved health services. Also, many aspects of medical training are controlled on a UK basis. Foundation places for new graduates are decided on a UK basis, for example, so it is important to take that wider view.

The workforce shortage is the biggest single challenge facing all four national health services across the UK. It has been exacerbated by the loss of EU staff after Brexit, with an almost 90% drop in EU nurses registering to come and work in the UK. Early retirements are being taken due to the Government’s pension tax changes, which, as has been highlighted, have not been sorted out and are resulting in senior doctors paying to go to work. There is only so long that they will continue to do that. Finally, there is the exhaustion of dealing with a pandemic for the past 18 months. This is why it is really important, when we talk about NHS recovery, to have a greater focus on staff wellbeing and on their recovery. There can be no recovery of the NHS without them. I am really disappointed to see how the clapping of last spring has turned to severe criticism and attacks directly from members of the public, from sectors of the media, and even from some Members in this place and members of the Government.

I shall now speak to my own amendments 40 to 43, which seek to tightly define the materials covered by the safe space protections as part of Health Service Safety Investigations Body investigations. The idea behind HSSIB was to learn from air accident investigations and to provide a confidential and secure safe space in which healthcare staff could be open and candid in discussing any patient safety incidents. I was on the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee, which was chaired by the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin), and the recommendations of that cross-party—and indeed cross-House—Committee were very clear: evidence gathered under the safe space protocols should be protected and disclosed to third parties only in the most pressing situations, such as an ongoing risk to patient safety or criminality. Despite that, there are aspects of this Bill that could undermine the principle of the safe space, and that is what I am seeking to amend.

Amendment 40 would define he safe space materials much more tightly, because it seemed as though anything that HSSIB was using would be covered by the safe space protocol and that exemptions would then be made, whereas it makes much more sense to be very clear about the materials that are defined as protected materials. Therefore, all the original clinical information—medical notes, etc—would still be available to all the other bodies to enable them to carry out their investigations as they do now.

Amendment 43 would remove the ability of the Secretary of State to use regulation at a later date to authorise the wider disclosure of protected materials beyond the provision that is finally passed in this Bill. Amendment 42 would remove the provision allowing coroners to require disclosure of protected materials, as this has already led to calls for access by other health bodies and even freedom of information requests, as I highlighted in my earlier intervention. If a coroner uses safe space materials in their report, that report is public. The question is: how are they going to handle that so that the safe space materials are not further disclosed? It is critical to defend this. It is important to stress that HSSIB does not limit anyone else’s access to original materials, but nor should HSSIB be seen as an easy way for other bodies to avoid doing the legwork and carrying out their own investigations.

HSSIB will not apply in Scotland, where the Scottish patient safety programme is focused more on preventing patient safety issues in the first place. My interest is purely personal, as a surgeon. I experienced the impact of the Scottish patient safety programme when it was introduced to operating theatres in 2007. It cut post-operative deaths by 37% within two years. It has subsequently been rolled out to maternity, psychiatry, primary care and all the main sectors. It has not just reduced hospital mortality, but prevented morbidity—such as pressure sores, leg thrombosis or sepsis, which all in their own way cost the NHS a huge fortune.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Jeremy Hunt and Philippa Whitford

Report stage
Monday 22nd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Hunt]

I am happy to do that, because I know my hon. Friend has a great interest in social care issues. I feel conflicted by new clause 49. I think that what we will end up with after this measure will be a whole lot better for people on low incomes than what we had, because the means-test threshold will be raised from £23,000 to £100,000, and that is a very significant improvement. However, I have to be honest and say that it is nothing like as progressive as we had hoped, but it is a step forward. My concern when it comes to social care is that our entire debate is focusing on what does and does not contribute to the cap, when the fundamental problem in social care is the core funding to local authorities; that, though not a matter for this Bill, has a direct impact on the care received by our constituents.

I conclude by thanking the Government for their support for amendment 114. I will move it formally later, but I am not expecting to divide the House on it.

[Dr Whitford]

I initially want to touch on new clause 49. Like other members of the Bill Committee, I sat through hours and hours from September to November, and the Government have suddenly pounced on us with this at the last minute. It is such a complicated new clause, but it has not been interrogated.

It is quite clear that the Government’s original spin that no one would pay more than £86,000 for social care and no one would have to sell their house is completely misleading. All the accommodation costs are on top of this. As has been highlighted in the media and by Members in the Chamber, those with assets of about £100,000 will not see any real gain from this policy, while those sitting on assets of £500,000 or more will keep a lot of their wealth. That means it exacerbates the differences, and penalises those in the north of England and areas where house values are not so high. Basically, it is feeding the frenzy down here of people sitting on over-inflated house prices. As has been said, this is not levelling up, just doubling down.

The cap applies only to personal care, which means things like washing and dressing. That has been provided free in Scotland both within the care home and in home care since 2002. It was expanded in 2011 to provide more hours so that people with greater need could stay at home longer, and it was extended to those under 65 with care needs in April 2019. Scotland is the only UK nation that provides free personal care, and we see it as an investment. It is an investment that we spend 43% more per head on social care in Scotland, but it is an investment in people’s independence and their inclusion in society. The problem is that we spend far too much time talking about social care just as a burden, instead of actually seeing it from the point of view of the user.

The Scottish Government have already added an extra penny on taxation for medium and high earners to cover things such as our wellbeing policies, health or social care, but this Government’s plan to increase national insurance contributions will disproportionately hit low-paid workers and young workers. I would say that the biggest weakness of all, as we know from the original debate on the national insurance change, is that the funding is not going to go to social care initially; it is going to go to the NHS, yet it is social care that is in crisis. This is what is causing the pressure in accident and emergency, because people who are ready to be discharged simply cannot be, as the care support is not there. I do not think that this fixes the problem. There will actually be very little money, because a lot of it is going to go on capping the overall payment. I do not see social care benefiting from this at all, yet it is social care that needs investment more than anything else.

Turning to the main substance of the Bill, which is meant to some extent to unpick the damage and fragmentation of the Health and Social Care Act less than a decade on, I wish to express support for amendments 9 and 72. Many in the NHS, including me, will be glad to see the back of section 75 enforced tendering. Others in the Chamber know that it was the Health and Social Care Act that brought me into politics, as I just could not believe anybody thought what they were doing was a good idea. It is still clear from the pandemic that this Government are absolutely wedded to outsourcing services to private companies, and to the flawed notion that financial competition somehow drives up clinical quality. I am sorry, but that simply is not the case. As the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee has highlighted, we have to focus on safety, on clinical audit, and on peer review if we want to drive up care quality for patients, not just on the money in the system.

The Government appear to have conceded that integrated care boards should be statutory bodies, as health boards have always been in Scotland, but partnership boards can include private providers, such as with Virgin Care in Bath. As the partnership boards will be involved in devising the local strategy for health services, that is likely to lead to a blatant conflict of interest, and I do not see a resolution to that. The NHS simply should be the presumed provider of health services. That is not just, as the shadow Health Minister said, because the NHS is in it for the long term, or for a quick contract, but because the NHS provides the training to nurses and doctors who are the vital workforce of the future. Private providers do not do that; private providers largely live off the NHS. As well as not training staff, where there are major problems or complications, patients inevitably end up in the intensive care unit of an NHS hospital.

In conclusion, for all the size of the Bill, and the scale that the reorganisation will involve for staff in the NHS, who we all know are frankly exhausted, the Government have failed to take the opportunity to repair fully the damage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, and to recreate in England a unified public health system, such as the one we are lucky enough still to have in Scotland.

NHS Funding Bill

Debate between Jeremy Hunt and Philippa Whitford

Legislative Grand Committee & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Legislative Grand Committee: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & 3rd reading & Programme motion
Tuesday 4th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Hunt]

I can be honest with the hon. Gentleman and say that I regret not being able to build lots of hospitals around the country in that period, because funding was short. Now, however, we are in a different situation. It is important that we build these extra hospitals, but there will be some big challenges in ensuring that we do so.

[Dr Whitford]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I welcome his suggestion of a central design team, because the NHS is over 70 years old and we seem repeatedly to reinvent the wheel. Does he recognise that it is not just about building new hospitals, because maintenance has also been allowed to slide? There are leaking roofs and leaking sewers, and patients are still in hospitals that are basically not fit for use. Maintenance is most urgent.

[Jeremy Hunt]

I agree with the hon. Lady. Maintenance is a big issue in many hospitals. A number of hospitals are still essentially prefab buildings that should have been torn down a long time ago, and there are others where maintenance can solve the problem. I think we have to attack all of that, and I welcome the fact that there is a real commitment from the Government to do so.

Finally, I want to talk about new clause 4, which relates to whether the Government are giving enough to the NHS to meet the current waiting time targets for elective care, A&E, cancer and so on. I welcome the Opposition’s focus on this matter, because the public absolutely expect us to get back to meeting those targets. It was an important step forward for the NHS that we did bring down waiting times, and I have often credited the previous Labour Government for that happening, as I hope the Labour party will credit this Government for the focus on safety and quality in the wake of Mid Staffs. However, as we focus on safety and quality, I would not want to lose the achievements that were made on waiting times, because it is fundamental to all patients that they do not have to wait too long for care. Indeed, waiting times themselves can be a matter of patient safety.

NHS Funding Bill

Debate between Jeremy Hunt and Philippa Whitford

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 27th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whitford]

The right hon. Gentleman’s overall figure for health spend is correct, but the public health spend—as opposed to private patients—is only 7.5% of GDP, and that is the figure the public are interested in, not the figure including people who can afford to go private.

[Jeremy Hunt]

I suggest to the hon. Lady, whom I greatly respect, that the overall figure is actually what counts. I agree that public health spending matters, but it is absolutely the case that we are heading to being one of the higher spenders in our commitment to health. That is very significant and should not be dismissed.

Often, the debate about funding can distort some of the real debates that we need to have about the NHS. One of those is the debate on social care. If we do not have an equivalent five-year funding plan for social care, there will not be enough money for the NHS. That is because of the total interdependence of the health and social care systems. It is not about finding money to stop people having to sell their homes if they get dementia, important though that is; it is about the core money available to local authorities to spend on their responsibilities in adult social care. I tried to negotiate a five-year deal for social care at the same time as the NHS funding deal we are debating today. I failed, but I am delighted to have a successor who has enormously strong skills of persuasion and great contacts in the Treasury. I have no doubt that he will secure a fantastic deal for adult social care to sit alongside the deal on funding, and I wish him every success in that vital area.

The second distortion that often happens in a debate about funding is that while everyone on the NHS front line welcomes additional funding, their real concern is about capacity. The capacity of staff to deliver really matters. I remember year after year trying to avert a winter crisis by giving the NHS extra money, and most of the time I gave the money and we still had a winter crisis, because ultimately we can give the NHS £2 billion or £3 billion more, but if there are not doctors and nurses available to hire for that £2 billion or £3 billion, the result is simply to inflate the salaries of locum doctors and agency nurses and the money is wasted. Central to understanding capacity is the recognition that it takes three years to train a nurse, seven years to train a doctor and 13 years to train a consultant, so a long-term plan is needed. It is essential that alongside the funding plan, we have in the people plan that I know the NHS is to publish soon an independently verified 10-year workforce plan that specifies how many doctors, nurses, midwives, allied healthcare professionals and so on we will need.

Health and Social Care

Debate between Jeremy Hunt and Philippa Whitford

Thursday 16th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Hunt]

I thank the hon. Lady for raising that. We have made huge progress in sepsis care, and the vast majority of people who go to A&E now are checked for sepsis, but mistakes still happen, and I am sure that it affected her as it affected the families of the people I have talked about.

We must not be complacent about the things that go wrong. In the NHS, we talk about “never events”—the things that should never happen. Even now, after all the progress on patient safety, we operate on the wrong part of someone’s body four times a day. It is called wrong site surgery. When I was Health Secretary, we amputated someone’s wrong toe, and a lady had her ovary removed instead of her appendix.

[Dr Whitford]

I know that the right hon. Gentleman visited the Scottish patient safety programme to see in action the WHO checklist, which is designed precisely to prevent such events, so can he explain why the checklist was never introduced during his time as Secretary of State?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Actually, we do have WHO checklists throughout the NHS in England—I think they were introduced under Lord Darzi in the last Labour Government—but the truth is that even with those checklists, which are an important innovation, mistakes are still made because sometimes people read through lists and automatically give the answer they think people want to hear. This is why we have to be continually vigilant.

What is the solution? It is to ask ourselves honestly, when a mistake happens and when there is a tragedy, whether we really learn from that mistake or whether we brush it under the carpet. To understand how difficult an issue that is, we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the doctor or nurse when something terrible happens, such as a baby dying. It is incredibly traumatic for them, just as it is for the family. They want to do nothing more than to be completely open and transparent about what happened and to learn the lessons, but we make that practically impossible. People are terrified about being struck off by the Nursing and Midwifery Council or the General Medical Council. They are worried about the Care Quality Commission and about their professional reputation. They are worried about being fired. In order for a family whose child is disabled at birth to get compensation, they have to prove that the doctor was negligent, but any doctor is going to fight that.

The truth is that many of the mistakes that are made are not negligence, but we make it so difficult to be open about the ordinary human errors that any of us make in all our jobs. As we are not doctors and nurses, people do not generally die when we make mistakes. That shows the courage of entering that profession, and if we make it difficult for people to be open, we will not learn from those mistakes. That is why we need to change from a blame culture to a learning culture. That is also why, as we reflect on the devastating news that the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), gave the House last night that the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust is now examining 900 cases dating back 40 years, we realise that the journey that the NHS has started on patient safety must continue. We should take pride in the fact that we are the only healthcare system in the world that is talking about this issue as much as we are, and if we get this right, we can be a beacon for safe healthcare across the world and really turn the NHS into the safest and highest-quality healthcare system anywhere.