Finance Bill

Debate between Ian Mearns and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and he has hit the nail on the head.

[Ian Mearns]

The hon. Gentlemen have got it quite wrong. The tribal nature of football is that people idolise their own team’s players and despise the activities of the players from other teams. The bottom line is that the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) would prefer that there was no tax at all.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is wrong on that last point; I recognise that there is a need for taxation, though slightly beyond the clauses we are immediately discussing. However, I will answer the important point that he has raised on the tribal nature of football and why people are willing to see these high salaries paid. It is because they recognise that those salaries get them the best quality players and they want to see the best quality players playing for the team that they so ardently and passionately support—it is an ardent passion that I do not have, but I understand that many people do have it. That requires low taxes, because otherwise these players take their talent abroad.

I come back to Professor Laffer, because his argument is one that is so obvious as to be self-evident: if the tax rate is zero, nothing will be raised and if it is 100%, no sane person will pay it either as there is no point in working or in earning. There is some point along that curve where the least legal avoidance takes place—I emphasise that avoidance is legal—the most amount of working is done and the highest amount of revenue is received. We have seen this. I know that some Conservative Members, myself included, think that there was a golden age when Baroness Thatcher was in charge—

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Ian Mearns and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Monday 16th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

That is a tremendously important point, because we have heard some complaints that couples, where both are working, are particular beneficiaries. But I think that that is great; I think that where the husband and wife are both going out to work, one of them is a relatively low earner and the whole family income benefits, that is good for men, women and probably their children, too. So this is absolutely the right policy.

In addition, we have cut corporation tax, a pro-business policy. We saw how well Ireland did by cutting corporation tax—[[Hon. Members: “It went bust!”] The reason Ireland went bust was not its low corporation tax. The reason Ireland went bust was because it joined the euro, a policy of which a lot of Labour Members were all in favour. Ireland’s corporation tax was behind it becoming a very successful economy and attracting companies to go there to do business. We want to do the same and I am glad that the Government have so much ambition to continue reducing corporation tax, to the benefit of the nation.

When we look at these great and bold things that have been done—getting the deficit under control, lowering the top rate of tax, raising thresholds and lowering corporation tax—we see that big, important measures have been taken. Yet what is the Budget criticised for? What is the Finance Bill criticised for? The answer is pasties. I have to say that the VAT levels charged are required to raise revenue and they include all sorts of funny things and they exclude some odd ones, too. Many of us will remember all the fuss there was about whether Jaffa cakes were cakes or biscuits, and whether, as a cake, they were exempt or whether, as a biscuit, they had VAT paid on them.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would mind reflecting on the situation of the Greggs Foundation, in the north-east of England, which puts significant money, through charitable donations, into youth services and children’s breakfast clubs. If the pasty tax hits home and Greggs’ profits fall—we have already seen a significant reduction in the share price—those charitable donations may dry up. Is that a concern of his?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

That is rather contorted logic. Saying that one aspect of the activities of a big and thriving business has a slightly higher rate of tax and so the business will suddenly not be able to give any money to charity is a leap in logic so great that it can be ignored in this case. However, I did wish to discuss the point about charitable giving, because that is one of the biggest sticks that has been used to bash this Finance Bill and the Budget with.