Non-disclosure Agreements in the Workplace

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Westminster Hall

[Dame Maria Miller]

The hon. Gentleman brings up an important point. How employees are treated goes to the very heart of the culture of an organisation; we can judge an organisation on how it treats the people who work for it.

My strong feeling is that we need to show leadership on the issue of NDAs. We need to make it clear from this place that such agreements have no place in the British workplace. It is regrettable that some organisations appear to be using NDAs to silence their employees. I sometimes wonder how transparent that is to the management of the organisations. Senior managers need to be asking some serious questions of their HR departments about how such agreements are drawn up.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Member for her initiative in bringing forward this debate; I absolutely agree with every word that she has said and how she has put the case. I say to the Minister that if he does what the right hon. Member is asking, we will give our full support. At this stage in a Government it is sometimes difficult to do good, but if he accedes to the right hon. Member’s proposals he could do a major piece of good.

Non-disclosure agreements are unfair on the individual. As the right hon. Member said, backed up by figures, they double down and are a ratchet on discrimination. As she also said, they are perilous for the organisations, as covering up wrongdoing introduces rot. Whatever words, written by the civil service, are in the Minister’s extremely good brief, he should have a think about doing this. He will get wholehearted support from us. The right hon. Member is putting forward a really sensible case, and I thank her for that.

[Dame Maria Miller]

I thank the right hon. and learned Lady, the Mother of the House, for those kind words of support. This is not a political issue; that is really important.

I couched my opening statement in terms of productivity because what really offends me to the core is that good people are being put out of employment for the wrong reasons. That often undermines their confidence and career in a way that they find it difficult to come back from, although there are notable examples of when that has not been the case.

I am thinking in particular of the evidence given to the Women and Equalities Committee for our maternity discrimination report, in which the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) played a part. We heard about people being pushed out of employment simply because they were pregnant. They then found it very difficult to get back into work afterwards. The issue has real consequences for our economy. I know that the Minister feels strongly about the importance of productivity; what we are discussing is part of the piece that we need to get right.

Can’t Buy My Silence, the organisation that brought in the universities pledge, is working on a similar voluntary agreement for businesses to stop using inappropriate NDAs; perhaps that fills a vacuum created by the many consultations going on at the moment, in both Government and other organisations. That business pledge is to be welcomed. The organisation has been shown to be powerful in turning its words into law. The pledge commits a business not to using non-disclosure agreements or clauses to silence people who raise complaints of sexual harassment, abuse or misconduct, discrimination, retaliation, bullying or other harassment, at the point of hiring, at termination or at any other stage. The organisation, very ably led by Zelda Perkins, has secured its first supporters, including a law firm, which I think shows the strength of the way the pledge has been put together and put to businesses.

When the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, in her time as Minister responsible for higher education, brought in the universities pledge, she said of the use of NDAs that she was

“determined to see this shabby practice stamped out on our campuses”.

I hope that the Minister replying today—I know my hon. Friend well—will wish to see this shabby practice stamped out across the whole economy, too.

Most confidentiality agreements are put in place by people other than lawyers. Other regulatory bodies have issued guidance on NDAs, as we would expect. Acas advises that NDAs should not be used

“to cover up inappropriate behaviour or misconduct, especially if there’s a risk of it happening again”.

The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the body for human resources professionals, recognises that NDAs should not be used to silence people in situations of harassment, discrimination or bullying and organisations should never exert pressure on someone to sign. But the evidence of the scale of the problem shows that the advice is simply not cutting through—it is not enough. Many employers relying on the online model agreements to which I referred earlier are simply perpetuating a cycle in which NDAs, confidentiality clauses, are seen as the norm, to silence victims of wrongdoing. Therefore it is time that we turned advice and encouragement into law—I think there are very clear indications that organisations such as the Bar Council are also seeing that as the way forward and I am sure the Minister will be aware of that—so that apparently legal clauses in legal contracts cannot be used by anyone, lawyer or not, to cover up illegal wrongdoing at work.

My determination to see change on this issue stems in no small part from an interview that I saw with Zelda Perkins on “Newsnight”, which was followed by the 2019 report by the Women and Equalities Committee—I chaired it at the time—on non-disclosure agreements. The evidence given to the Committee during that inquiry left me in absolutely no doubt that this was an issue largely under the radar and urgently in need of legislative solutions. The debate today is to remind the Government of the issue and of the need to act.

I believe in a fair society in which each of us has the opportunity to reach our potential, especially in education and in work; that is the society that we should all be striving for. Equally, I believe that it is the role of Parliament to remove the barriers that people encounter in achieving that aim. Non-disclosure agreements are a barrier to people reaching their full potential at work, a barrier to fairness and a barrier to the laws that we pass in this place working in practice. They must be outlawed where they cover up illegal wrongdoing. I hope that the Minister replying today can agree that the status quo is not an option.

Select Committees

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Tuesday 4th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

I want to make a short speech in support of the motion moved by my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House. I welcome the fact that the Government have decided to make permanent the Women and Equalities Committee. The Committee made a recommendation to that effect before the general election, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) had undertaken to put it on a permanent footing, which I really welcome.

The Women and Equalities Committee has proven its worth. The scope of the work undertaken has covered everything from looking at transgender rights for the first time, and having them debated on the Floor of the House of Commons, all the way through to looking at the impact of Brexit on equalities issues. I am also glad that the Committee has retained its name, as set out in the motion, because the issues that it looks at, which are the responsibility of Ministers, are women’s issues and equalities issues.

Before I draw my comments to a close, I want to raise two points, about which other former Select Committee Chairs may equally well have questions. First, I very much want to know from my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House whether the financial support for Select Committees will be sufficient for the scrutiny that will be required of Government policy at such an important time in our Parliament’s history. We need to make sure that Select Committees, including the Women and Equalities Committee, have the financial and manpower resources that they require.

Secondly, I want the proceedings of Select Committees to be treated with respect. There is a need for Committees to be able to sit, perhaps in protected time, while the House is sitting, so that they are not unnecessarily curtailed or interrupted, particularly when they are gathering evidence. There is also a need for Select Committees, such as the Women and Equalities Committee, to have a role in taking the work of this Parliament around the world, and they should be able to do so with the help and support of the Government and Opposition Whips.

I will close by reiterating my thanks to the Government, who have done more than any other to support the establishment of a scrutiny Committee for women and equalities, for which I think they should be applauded.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

rose—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is a doughty champion of his constituency. I will do everything I can to come and support the work he is doing to support culture and the arts in his area. We should recognise that culture, the arts and our heritage play an intrinsically important role in all our constituencies. We all have a duty to support them.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

May I draw the Secretary of State’s attention to research, published today by the shadow Communities and Local Government Secretary, which shows that the most deprived communities will suffer the biggest cuts to their councils’ spending power? As council funding is even more important for the arts than central Government funding, this will have a massive impact on the arts in those areas, especially as they are the least able to mobilise philanthropy and people have less money in their pockets to spend on participating in the arts. With the lion’s share of Arts Council funding going to London, what will the Secretary of State do to back up councils and support their vital work in trying to ensure that the arts are for all and flourish in deprived, as well as well-off, areas?

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right to say that it is important that every community has the opportunity to appreciate the importance of arts, culture and heritage, and that this is at the heart of the work of the Arts Council. She is right that some, perhaps less enlightened, councils are not investing as they should, and I hope she would join me in encouraging all to recognise the importance of culture and heritage, and support them through these difficult times. I would, however, pick her up on something. We are doing what we can to redress the situation we inherited. Some 70% of the Arts Council’s lottery investment now goes to projects outside London. Sir Peter Bazalgette has made it clear that he will be doing much more on that, but obviously we cannot change overnight the situation we inherited.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Thursday 31st October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I would add that the public overwhelmingly support a free press, so it is important that we strike the right balance. I am sure that everyone here today would agree that the new system has to have a free press at its heart, while giving individuals the right level of redress, as I believe it will.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for the key role that she has played in finally getting the royal charter sealed by the Privy Council yesterday. Clear evidence was presented to Lord Justice Leveson of innocent people suffering as a result of press abuse, and it is almost a year since he produced his report, so a proper complaints system that does not infringe the freedom of the press and that is truly independent of the press and politicians is long overdue. Does the right hon. Lady agree that the press have nothing to fear from an independent complaints system? Will she join me in encouraging the industry to establish a genuinely independent self-regulator and put it forward for recognition?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for her kind sentiments. It is also important to place on record the fact that the press are making good progress on setting up a self-regulator. They have already issued papers and are well into the necessary negotiations. Perhaps I could ask her a further question. Will she join me in staving off any form of pressure for statutory regulation of the press, because it is clear that some are still trying to use that as a threat?

Press Self-Regulation

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for her statement, for advance notice of it, and for her assurance to the House that the Conservatives remain committed to the charter that will introduce an independent complaints system for the press, which was put before the House by the Prime Minister, with the support of the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, and unanimously approved by the House on 18 March and by the House of Lords. Will she reaffirm that the charter gives redress to victims when the press breach their code of conduct, while in no way interfering with the freedom of the press?

We believe that the charter should have been submitted for consideration at the Privy Council meeting tomorrow, but it will not be going to that meeting because the Prime Minister has chosen to delay its submission till the end of this month. We regret that, because it has been nearly a year since Leveson reported, and six months since the House agreed the draft charter. There has already been too much delay.

I therefore ask the Secretary of State to confirm to the House that the process that she, the Lib Dems and ourselves have agreed will be followed to ensure absolute transparency of the process and no further delay. That is, that the charter of 18 March will be completed by agreeing any matters that were still in square brackets on 18 March; that aside from that, the 18 March charter as agreed by this House will not be changed unless such a change has the agreement of all three party leaders; that the Secretary of State will this Friday place before the House the final version of the charter—that is, the 18 March charter including the issues that required to be completed, and only any changes if they have been agreed by all three party leaders—and that it will then be put forward to the Privy Council before the end of this month.

Will the Secretary of State agree that what is important for us is to get the charter sealed, to get the recognition panel established and for a regulator to be set up? We must ensure that there will be a fair and effective complaints system independent of the press and independent of politicians. As the Prime Minister said to the Leveson inquiry,

“that’s the test of all this. It’s not: do the politicians or the press feel happy with what we get? It’s: are we…protecting people who have been caught up and absolutely thrown to the wolves”.

So let us have no further delay. Let us get on and implement Leveson as set out by the House on 18 March.

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right that the proposal that we are discussing today is all about redress, and that it is also all about ensuring that we retain freedom of our press, which we all value so highly. It is important, though, that we also recognise that the press charter that was put forward had to have a fair hearing, that it had to have a robust level of scrutiny, and that it was only right that a piece of work that had been put before us was treated in that way. I am sure she would agree that the process we followed was the right way to achieve the right outcome.

Now we will move forward, as the right hon. and learned Lady has outlined. Just to clarify, we will agree any improvements that we, on a three-party basis, feel will make this charter more workable, because, as the right hon. and learned lady will agree, she wants to have an effective charter in place to provide the sort of oversight that we have talked about in recent months. Of course, any changes to that charter would have to be subject to three-party agreement and, as I have outlined, that final version of the charter will be available for all Members to see in the Library this Friday. Following on from that, there will be a specially convened meeting of the Privy Council on 30 October, for us to be able to finally ensure that the seal is put in place.

I think it is important that we make this charter workable, but I agree with the right hon. and learned Lady that it is also important that we get going and put all this in place.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

I pay tribute to all the work that my hon. Friend has done in this regard. As he will know, the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill is currently being debated in the other place. We are continuing to discuss the issue that he has raised with transgender groups, but I gently remind him that it is actually an issue for the Ministry of Justice. Perhaps he could raise it with my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

May I take up the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark)?

I hope the Secretary of State agrees that, despite our political differences and the occasional blip, and despite the fact that we are by no means out of the woods yet, we worked well together on the basis of trust and good faith, and worked well with the Liberal Democrats, in trying to sort out the question of press complaints following the Leveson report. However, as she has just said, we have yet to deal with the important issue of monopoly media ownership, which prevents the market from operating by preventing new entrants to it, as well as being bad for democracy.

May I ask the Secretary of State to do what the Government did before, namely set up and lead cross-party talks on the question of media ownership? We—and, I am sure, the Liberal Democrats—would be very willing to work with the Government to deal with that aspect of the Leveson inquiry, which is important and has not yet been tackled.

[Maria Miller]

I observed no blips in our working together; I thought that it went very well indeed.

We have already agreed on how to deal with the issue raised by the right hon. and learned Lady. We will seek views on it in the summer. Lord Justice Leveson himself said that he was not able to devote enough time to considering media plurality matters in detail, and I think that we need to do so now. I think that if we are to provide the sort of broad policy framework that we need, we should seek views on those matters rather than engaging in further political discussion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about the ability of business people—or anybody else—to do work when on trains, and I have spoken to my colleagues in the Department for Transport about it. Importantly, however, as I have said, two thirds of premises in this country now have access to superfast broadband. The hon. Gentleman will also want to know that the internet contributes more than 8% to the UK economy, which is the highest proportion in any G8 country. We are impatient for more change, but we have already made a great deal of progress.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

First, may I join in what the Minister, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), said about Sir Colin Davis? He was an enormous figure in music, who was admired and respected, and who inspired people not only in this country, but around the world. He is a sad loss to the London Symphony Orchestra, this country and music generally.

Everyone knows that access to decent-speed broadband is vital to businesses and people’s work and home life and is needed in all areas. When we were in government, we committed to everyone in the UK getting decent-speed broadband—at least 2 megabits per second—by the end of last year. This Government abandoned that target, and Ofcom says that 2.6 million households still have not got decent-speed broadband. Instead the Government promised superfast broadband by the end of 2015, but there is growing concern that they will not meet that target. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that those concerns are wrong and that she is on track to meet the Government’s target of 90% of premises getting superfast broadband by 2015?

[Maria Miller]

The difference between the right hon. and learned Lady and me is that she may speak warm words, but this Government are actually making practical interventions. Not only with our commitment to 2 megabits universally, but through our urban project and our rural broadband project, we are actually delivering for the people of this country. More than two thirds of premises now have access to superfast broadband, so perhaps it is little wonder that the people of this country bought so many goods and services online in 2011—we bought more than any other major economy. Broadband has a fantastic role to play, and we are making sure it reaches more and more households. Indeed, it will reach 10 million more households by the end of this Parliament.

Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Monday 18th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that such instances already arise and that they are covered by the normal laws of libel. That would continue to be the case because those organisations would not be deemed to be relevant publishers. The normal laws would therefore be in play. Hopefully, that provides him with some clarification.

In conclusion, getting the balance of incentives right is clearly important, as it was really important in the Leveson report. We are, I believe, striking a balance through these amendments that will present a tough new system of press regulation, but equally one that does not compromise the freedom of the press or investigative journalism. We are all clear that investigative journalism and freedom of the press should be given paramount importance in the process. Throughout cross-party talks, we agreed a set of proposals that will create a tough new system of self-regulation.

I believe the package put in front of us all today provides real incentives with real effect. It embodies a crucial part of Lord Justice Leveson’s proposals and part of the tough new regime for press regulation. These amendments have been put forward with cross-party support, so I commend them to the House.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

I rise to support the Government new clauses in the group and the manuscript new clauses standing in the name of the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. The manuscript new clauses arise out of the cross-party talks, into which I thank the Secretary of State for inviting us. That explains why hon. Members have not, I am afraid, had much time to look at them. We all want to be sure that hon. Members have the opportunity to scrutinise provisions in advance, but because we worked late into the night in attempting to agree them, they have been brought before the House with inadequate notice. I offer my apologies for that.

I hope to add to the points made by the Secretary of State, with which I greatly agree. Also, because hon. Members have not had much chance to look at the manuscript amendments and consider what they mean, I shall try to explain my understanding of how they sit with the new framework set out in the royal charter.

As the Secretary of State has said, the choice Leveson made was not to impose direct regulation on newspapers as a complaints system, but to invite them instead to set up their own regulation system and to encourage subscribers to it, not only because it is a good idea as the framework is fair and reasonable, but because incentives and disincentives have been provided. That, of course, leaves the choice to them—the point of incentives and disincentives is that they incentivise and disincentivise—but encourages them to go into the new regime.

It is also crucial—this is a major change—that a new arbitration system is being set up. Over the years, people have wrung their hands about how inaccessible the courts are to people who have been defamed, while newspapers have wrung their hands about being tied up for ages with the enormous costs that can arise if some oligarch takes a newspaper to court. Importantly, therefore, arising from the Leveson report is not just a new complaints system but a new arbitration system. Media torts, defamation and privacy claims that would otherwise have gone to court will instead go into the arbitration system. The manuscript new clauses on cost will incentivise not only newspapers but individual complainants to go into an arbitration system and not straight to court. There is an incentive for a complainant who wants to bring an action against a newspaper that is a member of a regulatory body to agree to arbitration, which will be available to members of the body and which will be run inexpensively. A complainant who does not want to go to arbitration, who says “I will take my chances in court” and who then wins the case will not win the costs, and costs may be awarded against that complainant. Arbitration will involve no cost to complainants, and they will benefit from a top-rate, legally kosher procedure without having to go to court.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Thursday 14th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

With the Arts Council cut by 30%; with regional development agencies, which did so much to support the arts in the regions, abolished; with arts donors smeared as tax dodgers; with the Education Secretary trying to squeeze arts out of the curriculum; and with local government, especially in hard-pressed areas, which does so much to support arts in local communities, facing the biggest cuts in a generation, does the Secretary of State not realise that it is her job to fight for the arts for everyone? Will she therefore withdraw her shameful assertion that the arts community is disingenuous and that its fears are pure fiction?

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. and learned Lady will know that the arts and culture in this country are at the heart not just of making this a great place to live, but of the growth strategy. That is the work that our Department is doing. It is important to show that arts and culture are not just on the periphery, but at the heart of making this a great country. I am glad she has decided to show an interest in this area—I welcome that. I hope she will underline the importance of sending messages to local authorities such as those in Newcastle that the arts are important.

Press Regulation

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will make a statement on the proposal for a royal charter on press regulation.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

I must make it clear that following the publication of Lord Justice Leveson’s report, cross-party talks have been exploring different ways of implementing the tough self-regulatory system for the press which he recommended, and which would ensure that justice was done for the victims of press abuse.

As Members will know, there are already several press bills in the public domain which have been published by various organisations. The draft royal charter published by my party yesterday is outside the normal arrangements for collective agreement, and does not reflect an agreed position between the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties.

I made it clear to the House on 3 December that we would

“send a loud message to the press of this country, and…that the status quo is not an option.” —[Official Report, 3 December 2012; Vol. 554, c. 594.]

Both the Prime Minister and I wholeheartedly support a tough new system of independent self-regulation, as outlined by Lord Justice Leveson. We know that any new model must restore public confidence and ensure that the abuses of the past cannot happen again, but we continue to have grave reservations about statutory underpinning and, as such, we have concerns about implementing a press Bill. The royal charter I have published would put in place Leveson’s recommendations without the need for statutory underpinning. It would see the toughest press regulation this country has ever had, without compromising press freedom. The royal charter implements the principles of Leveson in a practical fashion and is the Conservative party’s alternative to Lord Justice Leveson’s suggested use of Ofcom as a verifying body. All parties now agree with us that handing further powers to Ofcom, an already powerful body, would not be appropriate.

Let us be clear: the charter does not create a regulator; rather, it establishes the body that will oversee the regulator. The regulatory system that the royal charter body will oversee will be tough, and the regulator will have the powers that Leveson set out to investigate serious or systemic breaches of the press code; to impose up to £1 million fines; and to require corrections and other remedies, including prominent apologies. The royal charter body will provide tough oversight and ensure that the new regulatory body is efficient and effective.

We have also published draft clauses for exemplary damages, which will provide real incentives for the industry to join the regulator and ensure that there are serious consequences for those that do not. This is tough regulation and a tough package, and delivers the principles of Leveson.

Lord Justice Leveson’s report was almost 2,000 pages long, and areas were raised in it about which all political parties have expressed great concern. Ofcom is but one example. All political parties expressed serious reservations around data protection proposals and their potential impact on important investigative journalism. There were also concerns about whether it would be appropriate for the Information Commissioner to investigate, and then decide on, public interest.

The royal charter reflects a principled way forward, proposed by the Conservative side of the coalition. We are clear that this is a workable solution, but it is only a draft, and we will continue to debate it as part of the cross-party talks, and we will continue to seek to secure agreement. We are all committed to the Leveson principles. This is about taking the Leveson report forward, and making sure it can work in practice. The challenge before all of us is to find an agreement. The victims deserve nothing less.

[Ms Harman]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but will she acknowledge that, as they stand, the Conservatives’ proposals do not implement the Leveson report recommendations? We called for cross-party talks and have been engaging in them in good faith, with her and with the Minister for Government Policy. Does she agree that what Leveson proposes is fair and is reasonable? It protects free speech and protects people from abuse and harassment by the press. There can be no justification for watering it down. The most straightforward way of implementing Leveson is by statute, rather than by royal charter and statute, but whichever route is chosen, we must implement the full Leveson, not Leveson-lite.

Leveson said that the system must be independent of Government, yet, through the Privy Council, Ministers would be able to tamper with the royal charter at any time. Will the Secretary of State address that problem with clauses in statute providing that, once established, Ministers cannot tamper with the charter? Leveson said the recognition panel must be independent of the press, yet the royal charter as drafted will allow the press to be part of the appointment process to the very body whose job is to guarantee the independence of the system. Will the Secretary of State take the press out of the appointment system, and will she undertake to come forward with changes to the recognition criteria, so that what is in the royal charter matches, rather than dilutes, Leveson?

Leveson’s report was published in November and there is growing impatience for it to be implemented. The December debate in this House made that clear, and the vote in the Lords on the Defamation Bill last week showed that there will be no acceptance of Leveson being watered down or kicked into the long grass. We will be reasonable on this, but we will be robust. We have an opportunity to make an important change that has been needed for decades. We must ensure that what the press did to the Dowlers, the McCanns, Abigail Witchalls’s family and to so many others, who suffered so terribly and whose lives were made a misery, can never happen again. Their heart-rending evidence to Leveson is the unanswerable case for lasting change. A big responsibility falls on us, and history will judge us as having failed in our duty if we do not implement Leveson now.

[Maria Miller]

I start by thanking the right hon. and learned Lady for the work we have been doing together and for today’s opportunity to clarify some of the points she has raised. She is right to start by making sure that we all focus on the group of people we need to focus on—the victims. She knows that the Conservative party, myself and the Prime Minister are absolutely committed to implementing the principles in Leveson. She may need to reconsider her choice of words in advocating implementing Leveson in full, because she will know that that is not what her party advocates, and it is not what my party advocates either. There are clear recommendations on data protection and the use of Ofcom as the verifying body that she has already expressed deep concerns about, so I am sure she did not mean to say that she would advocate the full implementation of Leveson, as she just did in her remarks.

The right hon. and learned Lady rightly says that if we are to take a royal charter approach—I was pleased to see that there was not a wholehearted rejection of that when we put it forward yesterday—we do need to make sure that it cannot be tampered with. She will know, having looked at the charter itself, that we have made clear provisions to ensure that such tampering is not possible. I would very much welcome her intervening on me now to give her party’s clear undertaking that that would not be an approach she would take; she can take it from the Conservative party that there is no way that we would ever want to tamper with a royal charter, and I am sure that she would be able to give those undertakings, too.

The right hon. and learned Lady also raised the issue of the appointment process, rightly saying that it needs to be independent. That is why we have taken the approach that we have, which is to involve the Commissioner for Public Appointments and to make sure that we are following the good practice that we have on appointments to organisations that are similar to this. I have to say that some of the bodies involved in the conversations about the Leveson report, such as Hacked Off, have actually proposed involving politicians and the press in an appointments process. We would wholeheartedly reject that, because we do not think it is right. We know that the appointments process for the verification body needs to be independent, and those who have read the details of what we are proposing will see that that is exactly what we are doing.

The right hon. and learned Lady also outlined concerns about the recognition criteria. She is right to say that we need to make sure that we give very full regard to the criteria as set out in the Leveson report. That is why we have used his recommendations as the basis for that section of the royal charter, but clearly we have to make sure that they work in practice, and remove any uncertainty and any concerns about clarity. I know that she and I would agree that, as we move forward, certainty and clarity are vital in this area.

Leveson Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Monday 3rd December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ms Harman]

That is a very good point, and I wish I had thought of it myself. [Laughter.] I think, in fact, it was my idea.

Let us be clear: having a statute to guarantee that is not some incidental add-on or optional extra to Lord Justice Leveson’s report. It is a complete contradiction in terms for people to say, “I want to implement Leveson, but without statute.” Leveson says that statute is “essential”.

Let us imagine the Leveson proposals on self-regulation without statute. Although I am sure that even if any new body started off being independent, without statutory oversight there would be no guarantee it would stay that way. It is inevitable that once again it would become controlled by the press, with editors marking their own homework—that has happened again and again. Why should we believe that we can carry on in the same way and that things will somehow be different? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. None of the other suggestions gets anywhere near answering that fundamental point of how to guarantee continuing independence.

Let me turn to Lord Hunt and Lord Black’s proffered solution. They claim that what they put forward is a truly independent system with tough sanctions. However, on closer inspection, it is a different story. They say that there would be an independent chair and board, but they could all be fired—the chair and the whole board—by the press barons just giving notice in writing. Lord Hunt and Lord Black say there would be tough sanctions, with penalties of up to £1 million, but then they say that those sanctions would be determined by the press barons. How is that independent?

Some have suggested that we do not need new statute because we could get a judge to appoint a new body, but a judge would not be able to do that without a statute. Many opponents of Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations have said that we must not have statute—that it crosses the Rubicon and would pose a fundamental threat to our democracy. I want to address each argument against statute in turn. The first is that any statute affecting the press automatically ends a free press. We have heard that a lot in recent days, but there is surely an irony and a contradiction in that, for was it not the press themselves who asked my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) for their inclusion in section 12 of the Human Rights Act 1998? Is that not amendable legislation? Was it not the press themselves who asked for a new defamation Act? Is that not amendable legislation? The first argument—that any law mentioning the press undermines freedom—therefore does not and cannot hold.

Secondly, it is argued that the statute that Leveson proposes amounts to regulation of the press by a ministerially appointed quango, but this is not direct regulation of the press. The statute would only guarantee the system of self-regulation. It would remain voluntary to join, on the basis of incentives. In that, it is similar to the system in Ireland, which has been in place since 2009. As the Deputy Prime Minister helpfully reminded the House last Thursday, it covers all the newspapers operating in Ireland, which volunteer to be part of the Irish Press Council, which—heavens above!—includes the Irish editions of the Daily Mail, the Daily Mirror, the Daily Star, The Sun, The Sunday Times, The Mail on Sunday and the Sunday Mirror. If that really posed a threat, where were the protests in Ireland? Why have those newspapers signed up? The UK editors say that any press law would end freedom of speech, so why have they not chained themselves to the house of the Taoiseach? The Foreign Secretary says that any press law in Britain would undermine freedom—and, indeed, democracy—around the world, so why has he not summoned the Irish ambassador for a dressing down? The Culture Secretary—

[Maria Miller]

rose—

[Ms Harman]

I will let the Culture Secretary intervene in a moment. She says that she fundamentally objects to any statute—at least I think that is what she was saying—so why is she not telling our press to boycott the Irish system?

[Maria Miller]

I was just going to ask the right hon. and learned Lady how many cases had been brought under the Irish law. I think she will find that the answer is absolutely none.

[Hon. Members]

So it’s working!

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is right to talk about the importance of the freedom of the press, but we must also ensure that there is robust and full redress for victims. Those are the things that we must balance, and that is why I think that it would be entirely appropriate for us to have discussions, whether in the Chamber or elsewhere in the House.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

I agree with Members who have said that this issue is of enormous importance. Like me, the Secretary of State had an opportunity to meet victims of phone hacking and press intrusion yesterday.

The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) was absolutely right to say that this is a matter for the House. In that context, may I ask the Secretary of State whether she intends to make a statement to the House on the day on which the Leveson report is published, and also whether she will ensure that the Government provide an early opportunity for the House to debate it? I have already asked for cross-party Front-Bench talks, but this is also a matter of great interest and importance for Back Benchers in all parts of the House.

[Maria Miller]

I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for the opportunity to clarify the position. She and I have already had discussions about this very issue. I hope that we will continue to have such discussions, and that they can involve the other parties as well. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will be able to make things clearer in his business statement later today.

BBC

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Monday 12th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will make a statement on the resignation of the director-general of the BBC, George Entwistle, and the situation at the BBC.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

The BBC is a global British institution of huge importance and value to millions of licence fee payers and people all over the world who look on it as an exemplar of independent public service broadcasting. In light of the ongoing crisis, it is crucial that the BBC puts the systems in place to ensure it can continue to make the first-class news and current affairs programmes on which its reputation rests.

George Entwistle has taken full responsibility for the failings of “Newsnight” in his role as editor-in-chief and it was for that reason he decided to resign yesterday. The circumstances of his departure make it hard to justify the level of severance money that has been agreed. Contractual arrangements are a matter for the BBC Trust, but the Trust also has clear responsibilities to ensure value for money for the licence fee payer. I know that Lord Patten has written to the Chair of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport outlining why the Trust took the decision it did, and that letter has been made public. It is right that the Trust should account publicly for its decision and I have repeatedly emphasised the need for full transparency to rebuild public trust.

Members will know that procedures are now in place to scrutinise the BBC’s decisions in delivering value for money—procedures strengthened by this Government. The National Audit Office is empowered to conduct a value-for-money review of any issue. If it decides to review this decision, I expect that the BBC would co-operate fully.

The BBC is in the midst of the most serious of crises, and I have made it clear both publicly and privately that the Trust was slow off the mark in responding to the initial crisis over Savile. It is now acting decisively, with three reviews, one of which reported yesterday; the other two are ongoing. It is in the long-term interests of the BBC to have a period of stability in which to see this important work completed.

In my conversations with Lord Patten, I have been clear that the overall aim of the Trust must be to rebuild the public’s trust in the BBC, and I know that Lord Patten agrees. There are three things that the Trust needs to do to achieve that. First, the immediate task for the BBC must be to address whatever failings there have been in the editorial process, particularly in “Newsnight”, in order to restore public confidence in the BBC. The Trust needs to act swiftly to ensure that the management and leadership issues are resolved, and that the failings cannot be repeated. It is clear from the interim director-general’s interviews today that the BBC is looking seriously at what went wrong, where responsibility lies, and how to address the matter in the long term, and I welcome that.

Secondly, the Trust must get the right director-general in post, and Lord Patten has indicated that he will do that as soon as possible. Above all, it must get the right candidate to stabilise the BBC and drive through the change that is necessary. As I have said, the BBC is a global British institution, and it needs to function effectively.

Thirdly, in all this, we must not lose sight of the inquiries and what is at the heart of these events. None of the developments in recent days should overshadow the investigations into the alleged horrendous abuse of children in institutions around our country. It is vital that the BBC responds correctly and decisively to the Pollard inquiry on the decision to drop the “Newsnight” item on Savile, and to the Smith inquiry looking at Savile’s abuses and the culture and practices of the BBC.

The BBC is an independent institution, and its independence is not, and never will be, in question. Ultimately, the only organisation that can restore the public’s trust in the BBC is the BBC itself.

[Ms Harman]

I thank the right hon. Lady for that answer. Does she agree that, first and foremost, we need to have in mind the people who suffered the horror of sexual abuse as children? It takes great courage to come forward, and that we must encourage and support them to do that. Does she also agree that it was disgraceful that “Newsnight” falsely accused an individual of the sexual abuse of children—a damning accusation that could only have caused him and his family untold distress?

As the director-general is editor-in-chief and the buck stops with him, it was right for him to resign. George Entwistle is a decent man for whom this has no doubt been a personal tragedy. We have heard what the Secretary of State said about the pay-off, but surely she must agree that the BBC Trust cannot justify a pay-off of double the amount laid down in George Entwistle’s contract. Does she take the view that I do—that George Entwistle should reflect on this and only take that to which he is entitled under his contract?

Turning to what happens next, the Secretary of State is right that what is needed is a period of stability, so that the Trust can oversee the BBC’s sorting itself out. Does she agree that in the heat of this crisis, there are dangers that we must avoid? We should not trespass on the BBC’s independence. We do not want politicians to meddle with what newspapers write; neither should that happen with the BBC. Does she agree that the next victim of this crisis must not be the independence of the BBC? Does she also agree that while it is imperative that the BBC reinstates professional standards, it is important that the pendulum does not swing so far the other way that the BBC becomes cowed and retreats into risk avoidance?

The BBC is a loved and trusted institution, but it has enemies waiting to pounce. Will the Secretary of State assure this House that she will stand up to the commercial competitors and political opponents who are lining up to attack and wound the BBC at this moment of crisis? The BBC has made grave mistakes, and must sort them out, but everyone, including we politicians, must keep cool heads and let that happen, so that the BBC can restore trust. That is what the public want, and what the country needs.

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. and learned Lady called for an urgent question today, so she is very much standing there questioning the BBC. I endorse what she says, as we should let the BBC get on with putting its house in order. It is absolutely vital that we have a period of stability to do exactly what she was discussing, to make sure that the BBC can put its house in order, and restore stability to one of our most highly prized national institutions. I hope that she would join me in calling for that period of stability.

The right hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right that we should not at any point forget why these issues are under review right now—it is because of the sexual abuse of some of the most vulnerable people in society, and she will have noted the comments that I made in my statement. It is absolutely right that she should deplore the actions of those who repeated wrong accusations against people who clearly had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in the dreadful events that related to these problems.

As for the terms and conditions of those who are leaving the BBC, the right hon. and learned Lady will know that that is very much a matter for the BBC itself. I agree, as I have said, that it is hard to justify the level of payment that has been discussed. It is for Mr Entwistle himself to decide whether it is appropriate to accept that payment. I repeat again to the right hon. and learned Lady, as I said in my opening comments, that the National Audit Office can undertake a value-for-money review of the issues, which is an important thing to note.

Sir Jimmy Savile (BBC Inquiry)

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity to cover some of the issues that he has raised. I spoke to both the director-general and the chairman of the BBC Trust after the board meeting on Friday, and I feel that they are taking these matters extremely seriously indeed. I would underline that point to my hon. Friend. Ultimately, it is for the BBC Trust to have the confidence of the licence fee payer and the comfort confidence of the British public. It is therefore vital for all the inquiries to be undertaken in a transparent and independent manner, and I think that the involvement of Dame Fiona Reynolds as the trust’s senior independent director designate will reassure us in that regard.

As for the role of a wider inquiry, my hon. Friend should bear in mind that a police investigation is currently taking place. I think everyone would agree that it is important for the individuals who have been victims to know that that investigation can proceed unfettered, and that that should be our priority at this stage.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

I support what the Secretary of State has said. Everyone has been sickened by the vile abuse perpetrated by Jimmy Savile, and it is impossible to overstate the suffering caused to those whom he abused. What has deepened the revulsion is that this happened at the BBC, an institution so loved and trusted that it is known as “Auntie”. That has cast a stain on the BBC.

Does the Secretary of State agree that no one should be complacent and believe that sexual abuse by people in positions of power at the BBC happened then, but could not happen now? The BBC should proceed now to review all its policies and processes on the protection of children, sexual harassment and whistleblowing, in order to be sure that the right policies and processes are in place and are properly enforced. That need not wait for the police investigation. Does the Secretary of State agree that it must apply to all employees, including those at the very top—the senior executives and the top talent? Clearly it was Jimmy Savile’s exalted celebrity status that gave him a sense of impunity.

I strongly support the Secretary of State’s recognition that people will want to be confident that the inquiries that the BBC is setting up will be genuinely independent, and that they will want to know when those inquiries can be established and when reports on them will be issued. I also support the recognition by the hon. Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) that this goes wider than just the BBC, and that there are still countless young women and men who have been abused but have never complained because they bear a great burden of shame, guilt and disgust, and fear that they will not be believed. Should not our strong and clear message to them today be “Come forward now, seek the support that you need to address the wrong that has been done to you, and, in doing so, not only secure the justice that you deserve but protect others in the future”?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for her comments and her support. She is right: there can be no room for complacency. I know that when we have discussed this matter in Committees of the House, we have stressed the importance of vigilance as well as checking. A vigilant culture in our corporations is vital.

The BBC undertook a root-and-branch review of its child protection policies in 2002, and made significant changes. Having looked at those changes over the last few days, I can see why they are held up as an exemplar in their field, but the right hon. and learned Lady is right to say that we need to reconsider. We must leave no stone unturned in ensuring that such appalling situations cannot arise again. Child abuse can have nowhere to live at any level in an organisation.

Let me reassure the right hon. and learned Lady again that we have a shared objective, namely to ensure that the reviews are entirely independent. I have been assured by the BBC that both the chairmanship and the remit of the organisations that will conduct them will be made available to everyone in the next few days.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Harman and Maria Miller

Thursday 13th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. All Secretaries of State would want to ensure that the House is kept informed first and foremost. In you, Mr Speaker, we have somebody who we know keeps an eye on that very closely.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

May I add my warmest and sincerest congratulations to the right hon. Lady on her appointment as not only Secretary of State but Minister for Women and Equalities? I look forward to working with her on both issues.

The right hon. Lady takes on her role at a crucial time. The Leveson inquiry offers a historic opportunity to tackle the long-standing problems of the lack of a proper press complaints system and the concentration of media ownership. We saw from the Hillsborough independent panel report yesterday, 20 years before the Dowlers, the ugly spectacle of collusion between the police and some elements of the press, inflicting pain and misery on innocent people who were already suffering. Will she ask Lord Justice Leveson to examine the implications of that for the media and to take evidence from the panel and the families? When his report is published, will she convene cross-party talks so that we can ensure that we have a press that is strong because it is free and clean, and that we can all work together to achieve that?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for her kind words and look forward to continuing to work with her on these issues and those of women and equality.

The right hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right that there are issues within Leveson that have clear read-across to the report that was released yesterday. However, at this time I want to ensure that we continue to focus first and foremost on the importance of getting it right for the families involved. We will examine the report in great detail to ensure that any necessary actions are taken so that we do not have the same scandalous situation again.