Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2019

Debate between Earl of Sandwich and Lord Judd

Thursday 28th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, I want to say a word about Africa, because, interesting as this debate on Hezbollah has been, the order also concerns west Africa. The Minister tiptoed very skilfully through the acronyms, so I thought I would take a minute to ask her a question. I used to know towns such as Timbuktu and Bamako in Mali quite well when I visited on behalf of Christian Aid.

I imagine that the motivation for proscribing these organisations is simple—relations of Daesh are living there and the world is a small place, especially as far as terrorism goes, and it crosses frontiers. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, referred to Brexit. I do not want to go that far but I am particularly interested in whether the order is shared with our fellow European members. As the Minister well knows, we are part of a joint mission. British troops are involved. Sometimes there are casualties and it is much nearer to home than we realise. I know that the joint mission will go ahead after Brexit, but I would be grateful to hear whether this is part of joint thinking, unlike with Hezbollah, where there have been differences.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to put on record my deep appreciation to my noble friend Lord Rosser for the speech that he made at the beginning of this debate. It was penetrating and analytical, and it is absolutely essential to the cause to which we all subscribe that he gets a full and explicit reply from the Government. I have been a Defence Minister and a Foreign Office Minister, and I totally understand that when we operate in this kind of context there are things that have to be confidential. But that makes it doubly important to be as explicit and transparent as we can possibly be in the support of the case that we pursue. If there have been, in a short period of time, the changes that have been described in this debate, it is absolutely, inescapably obvious that we have to give a very good account for why this has happened.

One good thing about this debate is that it has aired the issues a little more widely. It would be totally naive to imagine that the issue of anti-Semitism is simply about Jewish people. I personally believe that the total unacceptability of anti-Semitism is because it is about people. But not to understand that it has sinister—I use that word quite deliberately—implications would be very naive. It is obviously about other political objectives as well. To refuse to face that fact will not help at all.

The one crucial point that I want to make is this. I know that I have made it before, but I will go on making it until my dying day. We are ultimately in a battle for hearts and minds. It is in the sphere of hearts and minds that we will build lasting security, not by administrative arrangements or containment operations. It is by winning people’s conviction, understanding and appreciation of why the values about which we like to talk in this House are so indispensable to the future of humanity. That is the issue: hearts and minds.

That is why, when we are introducing anti-terrorism legislation, it is terribly important that all the time right in the forefront of the minds of those charged with the responsibility of coming to a conclusion are the words and thoughts: what are our values? What will be the down cost of this? What will play into the hands of extremists, as they exploit genuine anxieties and doubts amongst young people but not only young people? That is the issue that must not be ignored. What is the counterproductivity of what is being proposed?

It is a very difficult balance and a very difficult decision, but I urge that we always keep that concern about counterproductivity very much in mind in our deliberations.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Economic Partnership Agreements and Trade Agreement) (Eastern and Southern Africa States, Southern African Development Community States, Ghana and Ecuador) Order 2018

Debate between Earl of Sandwich and Lord Judd

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, I was not sure that I would still be here this evening, but owing to changes in the timetable I am delighted to be here. The noble Baroness has already received advance notice of some of these remarks.

I support the amendment to the Motion because, from my limited understanding, ratification of these SIs has been a very disappointing procedure both in another place and in this House. It seems as though Parliament has somehow been the loser when it no longer has any influence in these international agreements. It is therefore perhaps inevitable that the Opposition have tabled an amendment, which deserves support from around the House.

I welcome the noble Lord’s remarks, first about the Trade Bill, because this is a preamble to what we expect to come; it is just a rehearsal. I also agree with the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we need a committee dedicated to this particular subject—as we reorganise the EU committees, perhaps. There is no question about that.

Be that as it may, as we have heard, there are questions hanging around the EPAs from a decade ago that still concern many organisations with expertise on trade. I have worked with some of them over the many years that I have been working on development. Taking Africa alone, I can think of worries about rules of origin, GIs, reciprocity, and about tax—in short, about whether EPAs or interim EPAs are really worth having when you already have 100% access to EU markets through the EBA agreements and the GSP+. There is also a concern, as we have heard, about whether the regional groupings such as SDEC and ECOWAS can truly reflect the situation of individual states, which are all so different. Then there is education: how many citizens in these countries are sufficiently aware of the pros and cons of entering these agreements?

I know that I am bringing up very old concerns that have been expressed by civil society over many years. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will follow me and show some of his experience of fair trade over many years. ActionAid, ODI and Traidcraft have done a lot of work on the effects of EPAs on wealthier countries such as Ghana and Kenya. But the question is whether our Government have provided enough answers. Should there not have been more impact assessments to accompany these SIs? The whole point of scrutiny is that you are given a proper opportunity to make judgments, and quite apart from the strange ratification process already referred to, it seems that proper briefing on this occasion has been sadly lacking. So does the Minister agree, apart from answering all the questions first, that this whole procedure is back to front anyway; and, secondly, does she believe that some countries affected are being dragged into this by the EU without proper consultation and examination?

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, there is nothing I like more than to oblige the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. It was good to hear what he had to say.

Central to our whole approach to European Union matters at this moment is the concept of bringing government home and of increasing our powers of scrutiny and accountability. Treaties of this kind, with their immense implications, opportunities and dangers for vulnerable and young economies, are no exception if we are to follow through the logic of what we have been arguing. It is not satisfactory to have an arrangement whereby the Government will listen to those committees with adjacent and valid observations to make. This House needs to have specific arrangements for scrutinising what is being done in this context.