Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Friday 7th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, a doctor very explicitly suggesting to somebody that they end their life is one thing. But for me a much greater concern, which has been debated quite a lot already, is about the gentle suggestion that people should consider ending their lives—the arm around the shoulder. I am sitting in your Lordships’ Chamber only because many hundreds of thousands of pounds of NHS money have been spent on putting me back together. I have had some amazing doctors with a dreadful bedside manner, and I have had some doctors with a great bedside manner who have performed procedures that I did not ask for. It was recently reported that a young man, Mik Scarlet, turned down a certain procedure several times. When he was on the operating table, the surgeon completely ignored his wishes and carried out the procedure anyway, and it had to be reversed. He is in a better position now than he was previously. It is a very long and complicated story, which is detailed on the Huffington Post.

For me, this is about the constant drip-drip of “You’re not worth it”. I am a very resilient person. If I got upset every time somebody said to me, “I wouldn’t want to be like you”, I would be depressed. Somebody said to me recently, “Well, I wouldn’t want to be incontinent. That’s my worst thing in life”. I am technically incontinent. If it was not for self-catheterisation, I would probably be dead, because I would have pressure sores; I would not exist. I was having a debate in Central Lobby with somebody who strongly supported my view on where we should go with the Bill. He looked at me and sort of waved at the wheelchair and said, “Well, you must have considered killing yourself hundreds of times”. No, I have not, actually, and I think that it was a bit of a surprise to him. It is that sort of tone, where “You’re brave. You’re marvellous”. People do not realise that they are being demeaning. I think that they genuinely think that they are being empathetic, sympathetic and kind, but, actually, you are constantly being knocked down and told that you have no value and no worth. That is what is of much greater concern to me.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl, mentioned Oregon. In 1994, the Oregon medical assistance programme cut funding to 167 out of 700 health services. Four years later, assisted suicide started being referred to as a “treatment”. On the back of that, funding was cut to 150 services for disabled people. They started limiting funded doses of powerful pain medication and put barriers in the way of funding for antidepressants. Thank goodness we do not have an insurance system like the one they have in the United States. I would be dead because my parents could not afford to keep me alive. For me, the big issue is not the doctor saying that your life is not worth living; it is the arm around the shoulder. It is that constantly being told, “You’d be better off dead”. That is what disabled people face every single day. Disability hate crime figures are the worst they have ever been in 10 years of reporting. It is constant. There is not a group of disabled people and a group of terminally ill people; there is a huge crossover.

I am sure that many people have noticed that my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton is not here today. She has a chest infection. She is watching at home on her ventilator. We all know what a chest infection does for her prognosis. It immediately switches her from being okay to fitting in with the category of having less than six months to live. That is not a situation that I am very comfortable with.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness spoke about the young man who was operated on misguidedly by the surgeon. It reminds me that young people, 18 to 25 year-olds, might be particularly susceptible to this kind of suggestion over time. I am concerned that this particular group, who are not at the end of their lives but at the beginning and who represent a very small group within the group that we are discussing today, should be given plenty of thought, in particular because of issues around their maturity and the trauma that they may have experienced growing up.

We recognise that developmental delay can arise from trauma. We recognise that, while 18 is generally considered the age of maturity, we extend protections up to the age of 25 for young people who are leaving care. That is for a number of reasons, but in part because of the history of trauma that they have experienced. We recognise that it may take more time for them to develop. Where children or young people have not built up such large social networks, they are more dependent on those nearest to them and one should be very careful to avoid a situation in which they are drip-fed the notion that perhaps their life is not worth living and should be curtailed.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, was referring to the first part as well as the second part of the amendment, although he spoke mainly about the second.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I find this procedure extremely confusing. I realise that when a complex amendment is passed which subsumes other amendments it makes life complex, but for future reference, we would be very grateful as a Committee to have clear procedural guidance from the Whips as soon as possible. This has been a very confusing discussion on an extremely important issue.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I will speak to Clause 1, and in particular to the concern about young people aged from 18 to 25. As I stressed before, this is a very small group within the larger group we are discussing, and one has to be very concerned that they get the appropriate healthcare and health professional treatment so that they can make fully informed, proper decisions. It is notorious that the transition from children’s services to adult services often causes issues in the treatment of young people.

Many young people may have some difficulty in fully appreciating their own mortality. While it is easy for us to recognise, it may be more difficult for an 18 or 19 year-old to realise that ending one’s life is absolutely final. Therefore I would appreciate consideration being given to the welfare of that particular group, so that whatever progress is made on the Bill in the future, the welfare needs of 18 to 25 year-olds are taken into very careful consideration.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, my Amendment 10, which was superseded, accords with the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Cavendish. I just want to explain that all I wanted to do was to put the condition about informed consent into Clause 1, which contains the lists of qualifications. There is of course a reference to informed consent later on in the Bill. That was all I wanted to do, and it goes along with what is done by Amendment 4 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, which talks about informed wish. I therefore assume that that would be simply a technical matter of moving it.