Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Given his direct experience, the noble Lord knows exactly how the procedures work in Brussels. The point I was making was that the vast majority was introduced into UK law directly, without any appropriate scrutiny from Parliament beforehand. Obviously, there were lots of discussions in Brussels. He took part in some on behalf of the Council, and I took part in many in the European Parliament as well. But there was no scrutiny in this Parliament for much of that legislation.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

I do not mean to be discourteous; I really am not. But the European Union Committee of this House and the European Scrutiny Committee of the other place sat for nearly 50 years doing the scrutiny that the Minister is saying did not take place. It was very heavy: it used 72 Peers from this Chamber in its structure. There was quite a lot of scrutiny going on.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There was scrutiny but no ability for Parliament to amend any of it, of course.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I will address matters concerning devolution and the trade and co-operation agreement. I have noted before that the number of pieces of law concerned is a rapidly moving target. There were 2,400 in the Explanatory Notes accompanying the Bill into the other place in September, 3,200 in the revised notes for us in January, and 3,745 as I speak today. But the explanation on the first web page of the dashboard notes that the dashboard

“is not intended to provide a comprehensive account of REUL … that sits with the competence of the Devolved Governments.”

So the dashboard will never be a complete catalogue of REUL and cannot be relied on by the devolved Governments.

The week before last, I visited the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments with the European Affairs Committee. In both places, we had detailed discussions about how the Bill affected them. It was clear that an unknown proportion of the unknown number of REUL pieces of legislation are wholly or partly devolved matters, and that at least a part of the unknown unknown pool of REUL yet to be discovered seems certain to include things that affect the devolved Governments.

For the partly devolved REUL, clearly and case by case, a careful discussion needs to take place among the Governments concerned. Can the Minister assure the House that this is taking place? Can the Minister tell us how that process works for wholly devolved REUL that was made before devolution? For wholly devolved REUL made after devolution by the devolved Governments, can the Minister describe how support to the devolved Governments is being given, to identify, analyse and, if need be, help to legislate?

In any event, like many here today, I am highly concerned about the capacity of Whitehall to deal with matters in the timescales. Following my visits to Cardiff and Holyrood, I am certain that the necessary capacity in the devolved nations is simply not there.

I finish on my home territory—and a point at least as important as the devolution one that I have just made. Clearly not all REULs are about reindeer movement, the example that the Minister wittily gave recently. I am very concerned that some of the REULs could be directly relevant to our treaty arrangements with our closest neighbours and biggest trading partners under the trade and co-operation agreement. Of especial concern is the potential to interact with the level playing field provisions, particularly those on employment and environmental standards. I feel that anything of that nature would naturally need to come before Parliament for scrutiny and agreement, and those REULs would need separate treatment under the Bill.

In the materials accompanying the Bill, we have no document detailing how the Government are ensuring that the Bill will not lead to any breach of the trade and co-operation agreement or describing the process that all the various UK Governments will go through to ensure that. I have asked my three questions already, but here I would urge the Minister to commission such a document forthwith.

Employment Rights Legislation

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We will no doubt have this debate at Second Reading of the rule legislation on Monday. If those are the comments of the director-general of the CBI, then he is wrong. Our paternity and maternity regulations are far in excess of those guaranteed by EU minimums. We are proud of that and will continue with them.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, when the rule Bill was introduced in the Commons in September, the Explanatory Notes said that there were 2,400 bits of rule legislation. When the notes appeared here on 19 January, that number had risen to 3,200. I have just accessed the dashboard, and that refers to 3,745 bits; that is an increase of more than 40 bits of rule legislation a day in the last 13 days. Can the Minister tell us how many of the 1,345 bits of rule legislation added since September are about employment rights?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the noble Lord said, they are all available on the dashboard for him to refer to.

REUL Bill: Trade Unions and Workers’ Rights

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We engage with the trade unions regularly. There have been a number of meetings in recent weeks, particularly about strike action, but the retained EU law Bill is not about workers’ rights; it is about retained EU legislation and the consequences that will flow from that. However, there will be a full opportunity to debate that in the House in the near future.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, the Explanatory Notes for the Bill when it was introduced in September last year said confidently in the overview at paragraph 16 that there were 2,400 pieces of legislation involved. The Explanatory Notes for the introduction to this House say that there are 3,200. First, I wonder whether any of the 800 bits of legislation that have turned up in the interim affect workers’ rights. Secondly, how confident is the Minister that 3,200 is the final number?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are of course continuing to do detailed work on this matter. There will be an opportunity to debate that in full in the House in the near future, and I am sure that the noble Earl will want to make his contribution on that. We will update the dashboard shortly.

Energy Bill [HL]

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

In which case, I am even more supportive, because it is absolutely clear that installing solar panels is a fast way to reduce demand for fossil fuels and to increase resilience. If it can then be stored, even more resilience will be added to the system. So this would seem to be a very sensible amendment, and I thank the noble Lord for his meticulous detail in spotting this.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I rise with my European Affairs Committee hat on. I see these as enabling amendments for the storage of energy. The first Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, which took place in May, had a specific session on energy security. The mood was clear: the 70 politicians—35 from Westminster and 35 from the European Parliament—felt that, in a difficult security environment, energy was a European-level matter and that we should think about it as such. Interestingly, I was at a European security conference on Monday and the exact same theme came through. Yesterday, we were settling the agenda for the second Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, and this theme will be on the agenda again.

Many of the speeches and thinking this evening have been from the United Kingdom view of the world. However, we should be enabling ourselves to consider this from a European perspective. As we might be storing gas for others, such as the Germans, anything in these amendments which would allow a future Secretary of State the flexibility to do that would be a good thing from a European context. Therefore, they would be good from a European affairs point of view.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in the interests of time, I will comment only on Amendment 240, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, and offer strong support for it—alongside some potential improvements or broadening-out suggestions at this stage.

It is interesting that, in 2015, Steve Holliday, the then CEO of National Grid, said that the idea of baseload relying on coal-fired or nuclear power stations was “outdated”:

“From a consumer’s point of view, the solar on the rooftop is going to be the baseload.”


This would obviously need to rely on batteries for it to work 24/7. Mostly since that time, 3.3% of British homes have installed solar panels, but many of them were installed before batteries were a viable option. Those home owners should not pay the high levels of VAT to enhance the system for the benefit of both themselves and the whole of society.

I have later amendments talking about community energy schemes. I can think of numerous ones that I have visited over the years where solar panels were put on cricket pavilions, community halls et cetera. We have been talking mostly about domestic settings, but there are also many community settings in which the addition of batteries may now be a practical option.

We will be talking a lot in later groups about the issue of energy efficiency and improving energy security by reducing our demand. My understanding of the information from the Consumer Protection Association —and I stand to be corrected if I am wrong—is that double, triple and secondary glazing are not currently covered by the VAT concession. It seems to me that this could possibly be included in this amendment; perhaps it is something we can work on.

Horizon Europe

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There were many different questions there. First, I agree with the noble Lord about the importance of international science collaboration. Secondly, we are not cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world. We remain keen to associate to Horizon Europe and co-operate with other scientific nations across the world. Thirdly, I do not agree with his point about the National Security and Investment Act causing problems for universities. The system is working extremely well and applications are being approved smoothly, as he will see if he looks at the recently produced annual report.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

The sorry state of affairs is, of course, the result of the impasse over the Northern Ireland protocol. Can the noble Lord the Minister assure us on two fronts—first, that the plan B concepts will not be brought forward until absolutely the last moment when it is not possible practically to join this iteration of the seven-year Horizon programme, which would come not before the end of this year; and, secondly, that if a plan B comes forward, it would be structured in such a way that the future co-operative and collaborative matters that the noble Lord, Lord Reid, talked about can be taken advantage of because it would be possible to collaborate with a future Horizon programme?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed, the Northern Ireland protocol is the excuse that the EU gives for refusing to live up to its commitment. These are separate agreements and issues. We would prefer them to be completely separate. We want to associate with Horizon Europe because it is in both our interests. There should be international science collaboration, as I said in response to previous questions, and we remain willing to sit down and implement the agreement that was entered into, just as soon as the EU is prepared to talk about it.

European Research Council

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Northern Ireland protocol is built into the treaty. The exercising of the Northern Ireland protocol, if we chose to do so, would be in compliance with the treaty obligations. It is a section of that treaty. I merely make the point that the UK has not broken any of its obligations that it signed with the EU. It is the EU that is in default, and it is about time the Liberal Democrats recognised that.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, the Horizon programme is actually very complex. It would not be completely easy for us to begin the programme, say, 18 months late, without some element of further negotiation. Are the Government already dealing with that on a “what if” basis or will be a further delay, assuming that the protocol is finally sorted out?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, we stand ready to commence negotiations for our association as soon as the EU is prepared to do so. In the meantime, of course, as the House would expect, we are putting in place alternative arrangements if that proves not to be possible.

Horizon Europe

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Yes, we will try to do that.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to our letter. Our letter came after an evidence session, when it was clear that it was mutually harmful to science communities of the UK and Europe not to have the UK participating in the programme. That is not surprising, because the joint declaration, which is the foundation of this agreement, says:

“The Parties recognise the mutual benefit”.


Can the Minister assure us that both parties understand that there is a mutual harm in the programme not starting with UK participation?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree totally with the noble Earl that it is to the benefit of both parties. It provides value for money for the UK, which is why we agreed to associate with it. We thought that we had a legally binding agreement with the EU, as part of the trade and co-operation agreement. We will continue to try to unblock that and work towards agreement. We want to associate with it precisely because we think that it is to the benefit of both parties, and we hope that will be obvious to the EU as well.

Trade Talks with India, Greenland and Israel

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to be congratulated by the noble Baroness; I have a high respect for her and for the committee she chairs. I apologise that there was a little bit of confusion in the timing of the New Zealand publication. It was a bureaucratic error because so much was going on, and I apologise to the noble Baroness and the House for that short delay.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, Article 218 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union deals with all agreements between the EU and third countries. It says:

“The European Parliament shall be immediately and fully informed at all stages”.


Through this article, the scrutiny processes of the committee of this House were engaged. Why was this piece of EU law not retained?

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have put in place a suite of enhanced scrutiny arrangements that go well beyond our statutory obligations, so we have no need to refer back to EU law in that instance.

Free Trade Agreement: Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Thursday 14th October 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

To move that this House takes note of the Free Trade Agreement between Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Kingdom of Norway and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, laid before the House on 16 July.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the European Affairs Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument).

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, this debate is held pursuant to the provisions in Section 20 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. On 16 July, the Government laid before Parliament the free trade agreement between Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway and the UK. Following discussions between the International Agreements Committee and ours, it was agreed that, exceptionally, the European Affairs Committee would conduct the scrutiny and prepare a report; this was as the European Affairs Committee is charged with considering the UK’s relationship with both the EU and the EEA, given their close economic relationship. The report has been prepared in exactly the same format as that successfully developed in recent times by the International Agreements Committee. I warmly congratulate the committee staff involved in its preparation, particularly the lead author, Chris Johnson.

My remarks will focus on two areas: first, the agreement itself, and, secondly, the scrutiny process for this free trade agreement and free trade agreements in general. The UK became a beneficiary of the EEA agreement on 1 January 1994 as a member state of the EU. In seeking to preserve the benefits of that agreement, the parties, namely Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and the UK, entered into two earlier international agreements. The first, in 2019, sought to preserve matters in a UK/EU no-deal situation. That has, of course, now run off. The second, in December 2020, aimed similarly to preserve tariff-free trade in goods after the UK’s automatic exit from the EEA at the end of the transition period. This second agreement was explicitly temporary, and the Government stated at the time that negotiations towards a more permanent agreement had begun in the summer of 2020 and were due to be completed in 2021. This objective has now been met via the new free trade agreement.

Importantly, as we point out in our report, this new free trade agreement goes further than the previous agreements in at least two significant ways: first, with the removal of some tariffs in the fisheries sector, as we detail in paragraph 35 of our report, and, secondly, as it also includes provisions on trade in services. We very much welcome this and note that, while the overall provisions remain more restrictive than was the case when we were a member state of the EU, they go further than the comparable ones in the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, as the Law Society also commented.

Nevertheless, the committee welcomes the Government’s successful negotiation of this important agreement and the speed with which it was negotiated, covering a trading relationship valued at over £27 billion, most of which is with Norway. Imports of Norwegian goods are particularly important for Yorkshire and Humber, for instance, where they make up 13.2% of all goods imports, and for my native Scotland, where the figure is 10.4%. Unlike all the other trade agreements concluded by the Government so far, this is not a rollover agreement; it contains substantially new provisions, as I have just observed. Indeed, our report concludes that it should really be seen as the UK’s first new, post-Brexit free trade agreement.

At the same time, however, it is important not to overlook that a key objective of the FTA is to preserve the trading relationship that was there when the UK was a member of the EEA. As such, the free trade agreement is, in part at least, an exercise in damage limitation: it seeks to avoid new barriers to trade, rather than to remove existing barriers. Thus, its impact in terms of increased trade is likely to be modest and incremental, both in goods and services.

Separately, as the report points out, the interaction between the free trade agreement and the protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland is complicated. We are surprised that no reference is made to this issue in the materials published by the Government alongside the agreement. We highlight this issue in paragraph 21 of our report. Could the Minister give us comfort that, in due course, the Government will provide business with suitable guidance in this important area?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. That was the first intervention I have ever had at this Dispatch Box, so it was a pleasure that, perhaps unsurprisingly, it came from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. I quite accept the importance of the point that he raises. You cannot get all that you ask for, of course, when you negotiate these agreements. The agreement is as it is, but, if I can provide more information on the background to the noble Lord, I will of course do that and copy it to other noble Lords.

In conclusion, I again thank all noble Lords for their many insightful contributions to this important debate. I have resisted giving a running commentary on our total trade policy in this debate—we would be here for a lot longer if I were to do that—but, of course, I am always very happy to answer noble Lords’ questions on that. I look forward to continuing to engage—

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

I am very sorry to be the second person ever to intervene on the noble Lord—and, of course, I am going to speak after him. But could he address the concordat point that has been raised?

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

Perhaps the noble Earl could remind me what the concordat point was.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

Certainly—there is a recommendation in the latest report from the International Agreements Committee that a concordat be entered into. The International Trade Committee in the House of Commons has written in support of that. So there is considerable support for it in Parliament, and it would be very interesting, as the noble Lord is here, to hear the Government’s current thinking.

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

I thank the noble Earl. My memory flooded back as soon as he started to explain that. I thought that the report from the IAC was very good, as a marking of progress over the last year. It has made recommendations, which we are studying closely, and we will of course respond to the IAC on that in the normal way within the agreed timeframe.

Coming back to this debate, I look forward to continuing to engage with noble Lords on trade relationships between the UK, Norway, Ireland and Liechtenstein in the future.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

I thank the Minister, who is unbelievably courteous and was as courteous as ever when still answering emails from me at 9.20 pm last night. I think he realises that the whole House is very grateful for his engagement. I add my thanks to my many colleagues who have spoken in this interesting debate, unfortunately held late on a Thursday—a time when not so many of our colleagues were going to be here. I will not go through what everyone said—I would certainly never do that—but I have written down three things that I thought worthy of reflection.

The first is the chimera nature of this free trade agreement, which on the one hand is new and on the other is old. There is an element of a chimera nature, but I hope the Minister will reflect on the fact that the scrutiny processes in this House are well developed. The International Agreements Committee, which was born out of the European Union Committee earlier this year, is a highly professional organisation that wants to do good, not harm. Rebalancing, as I put it, between Parliament and the Executive is necessary, so I hope that if a similar agreement came along it might fall on the other side of the fence and that there would be some engagement.

In fact—this is my second point—as the Minister went through the good news about the devolved Administrations, I very nearly got up and said, “Can we have that as well?”, because they are getting a heck of a lot more engagement and discussion of these things than our own International Agreements Committee. That is another thing that the Minister might like to reflect on. I know he is deeply interested in scrutiny, and getting that balance right is very important. It is indeed a balance, and there could be too much. Reflecting on that would be good.

The final point—it seems to be the final point every time I get up in debates such as this—is Northern Ireland, of course. The Minister generously said there would be business guidance. There was no timetable on that, but I very much hope that guidance will come along pretty quickly. At the moment, if I were trying to import raw salmon into Northern Ireland, I am not sure what I would do, because it is the beneficiary of now being tariff free in the UK but not in the EU. Who knows what would happen to a piece of raw salmon when it arrived in Belfast? That needs urgent attention. There are quite a lot of other things to do with Northern Ireland that we raise in the report and that I hope would be coped with at the same time.

Motion agreed.

Contracts for Difference (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2021

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Thursday 10th June 2021 Grand Committee

Motion agreed.

[The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

That completes the business of the Grand Committee this afternoon. I remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs.

Committee adjourned at 5.02 pm.