Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Erroll and Baroness Brinton

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton]

I agree with the last comments of the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Ribeiro. One of the problems that your Lordships’ House has faced with this is the issue of data used for research versus data used for commercial purposes. That becomes a very grey area when some commercial firms are doing pure research. It may be worth your Lordships’ House remembering that even commercial research, whether it is carried out by research departments or within universities and other research bodies, is bound by the strongest ethical codes in which we should all have trust and assurance because they are respected around the world. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm again—I know he has already done so—that commercial data will not be released so that, for example, an insurance company could raise premiums for a particular group of patients. That is the fear that the public have, rather than the issue of using research data, for which we already have many structures and for which the Health Research Authority is properly the correct authority to make sure that the codes are followed absolutely. There is a difficulty in that pseudonymised and anonymised data can sometimes be undone, but that issue already exists in other research areas and there are plenty of mechanisms to hold researchers to account should they use any of that information themselves. I support the point of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that we should be content with the Government and that if we start to overprescribe, we will end up unravelling some of the complex but effective arrangements that already exist in the research world.

Secondly and very briefly, I have previously raised with the Minister one very specific point on this issue, and I have asked him this question in writing in advance. Has there been any progress on the timetable for inclusion of primary care musculoskeletal data into the care.data programme? I understand that it was an unintentional omission earlier in the process but, given the number of people in this country suffering from musculoskeletal problems, it would be quite extraordinary if they were not included at an early stage.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I would just like to say a few words about this because I am very involved in the whole world of IT, personal data and identification and the issues around examining the data. One of the things that has become apparent to me is that if care.data is to be effective, public trust must be maintained in it—that is the core problem. It needs to be there so that we can do epidemiological studies, and to do those some information will have to be in the database—such as postcodes, so that you can look for clusters and so on—which will potentially allow people to be identified. Once you compare it and link it across to other databases, if you are looking for someone who is of a certain age, a certain health profile and in a certain area down to 100 yards, it is fairly easy to start working out who they are by cross-linking. However, it may be important to take that risk from time to time, as long as it is done properly. What we do not want if this is to work is for people to feel a need to opt out. You cannot do epidemiological studies if half the population decide they are going to opt out. It is essential that the public trust the database, trust that they will be protected as far as possible and trust that the information will not be misused against them. That is the core to getting this whole thing to work, and if you fail on that you have had it.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester, made a very good point about the human rights stuff being in there and that we have the Data Protection Act and all these things. The Minister also mentioned the Data Protection Act. However, there are some challenges with this. One of them is how you bring a case under the Human Rights Act when a department or the health service is acting incorrectly. It is quite tricky; it does not happen overnight and you would be lucky to stop it. There are wonderful protections in the Data Protection Act but there is a certain amount of vagueness about exactly where the limits are and, worse still, it will all be changed this autumn or winter when the new European Parliament assembles. The proposals nearly got through before the coming elections. Under the digital single market agenda, a new Data Protection Act regulation will almost certainly come out of Europe somewhere towards the end of the year. That will have direct action in this country. We have no control over it as it is a European law that is directly effective in this country, and the Information Commissioner over here will be the person who will enforce it. We will have no say in whether it relaxes things too far or becomes too prescriptive in what it does. We cannot rely on it for certainty in the future

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Earl of Erroll and Baroness Brinton

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, for these two amendments, which are very helpful in trying to balance and find a bridge between the two very distinct sides of the argument that we have seen during the various stages of this Bill—and, in particular, the problems already outlined about whether arrangements for orphan works will work. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, for saying that Amendment 10 might be helpful to all parties. I hope that the Minister can give us some encouragement on that.

On Amendment 11, I wanted to point out that I am as concerned as the noble Lord about a large amount of licence fees sitting in a large black hole and then returning to the Government in whatever form as a double taxation. My only question—I apologise as it is rather a technical one, but I saw the amendment only earlier today—is about the five years of royalty payments. If it goes into bona vacantia, how long does it have to sit there before it is released into general Treasury funds? Is it another blocking account? I recognise that the proposal refers to “bona vacantia or otherwise”, and that “otherwise” might refer to the general coffers of the Treasury. It would be helpful to know. My only suggestion to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is that five years might be too short a period to search for authors of orphan works.

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, I support both amendments, which were spoken to most ably by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, also made comments that were absolutely right on the nail.

A review is only sensible. An awful lot of the figures should be obtainable from the licensing authorities, whoever is going to be appointed, on the financial stuff, how much is done, and so on. I do not imagine that it will require a huge amount of public money to try to do a review at whatever period is thought best.

As a taxpayer, I am concerned about the up-front fees. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, almost did not stress that point enough. The notion is that those fees should be set at a rate that means that orphan works do not undercut stuff that might be in a commercial library of works that people can license. They would probably not be on the same subject in most cases; they would be for different purposes. If one of the big national libraries or a university was trying to prepare a work of academic interest, they would not rush around paying fortunes to these libraries that have collections of pictures or text. They cannot do that; they will not have the budget for it. If someone was to look at what this stuff was currently sold for, or licensed for, we could be talking about a huge sum of money going into the bodies collecting for orphan works. We are not talking about a petty million, or something like that.

A department always expands to spend the money provided, so if it is going to be ploughed into trying to collect these things will get enormous and complex, and they will spend money like water. On the subject of BIS sponsoring training programmes, well, we know what happens with most government training programmes, so just to get the point across and to see the horror on the Minister’s face, I volunteer to be either one of the societies collecting the money so that I can have a huge scheme, or one of the chief accredited training agencies, because this will be a licence to print money.

The point is well made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. The funding of universities and libraries and institutions like that, which this provision is aimed at, comes out of public or charitable funds, and it is there for a purpose. The concept that this is a hidden tax that then goes back to the Exchequer or to fund a nice quango or whatever is totally unethical. I cannot put that strongly enough. If the public woke up to the fact that that was happening, they would be absolutely horrified, so the Minister would be incredibly well advised to accept this amendment to protect the Government from all sorts of accusations in future—unless, of course, they do not expect to be in power by the time this happens and think that another Government will take the flack. However, given that most politicians think they will still be in power, if I were them I would protect myself.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Earl of Erroll and Baroness Brinton

Monday 28th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, with the permission of the Grand Committee, I shall speak sitting down.

I shall speak to both amendments. On Amendment 28DZA, will the Minister confirm that there is already protection under the law for the stripping of metadata knowingly and without authority? Other noble Lords have alluded to that. I understood that it gave us the protection that we were seeking rather than going down the route of this amendment. Any infringement is therefore already contrary to civil law. If there are concerns that that protection is not strong enough, especially in relation to computer and electronic equipment—for example, in cameras—it is not just about large internet companies stripping data. There is a real problem for photographers; I know that some of their data are stripped. I am looking at the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, when I say that we have worked with the ISPs in relation to child safety and pornography. Surely there is a more effective way of working in the internet age with organisations that, whether deliberately or not, might try to remove that data.

I understand that this amendment is trying to tackle the problem, but I am worried that it relies on individuals to instruct their electronic equipment. That might be fine in the case of a highly proficient technical photographer, but not necessarily fine for amateurs creating metadata, particularly on the internet, as well as for some professionals who do not understand the technology too well.

I worry that this amendment creates a further barrier to orphan works, which we will be discussing later. If this amendment is accepted, it will make it almost impossible to collect copyright licence fees for some orphan works because of the conditions it puts upon person A and person B.

I turn to Amendment 28DZD. It is a complete change in tone. I declare an interest as a former stage manager of Footlights. I worked alongside people such as Steve Punt and Hugh Dennis on their very first shows. I worry that paragraph (b), which states that copyright is not infringed if,

“it is accompanied by sufficient acknowledgement”,

would provide a real problem to people working in our fast-moving light entertainment and comedy world. I can absolutely understand the parody of major works: I think of Benjamin Hoff’s The Tao of Pooh, which acknowledges, right at the start, where it is coming from.

But there has been a traditional and proud history in this country of parody and caricature, from “That Was the Week That Was” 60 years ago, moving right up to date with “The Now Show” on Radio 4. Steve Punt and Hugh Dennis did a wonderful sketch a fortnight ago on UKIP and the referendum on Europe using the theme of Gollum in the film of Lord of the Rings. I do not know whether noble Lords heard it, but the theme of the programme was “We wants referendumses”. It was very effective.

The problem is that proposed new subsection (3)(b) in Amendment 28DZA would mean that every sketch like that in a fast-moving half hour show would have to stop to acknowledge that it was taking both a piece from Peter Jackson's original film and the style of the actor. Therefore, frankly, it would be unworkable. I apologise, but I am afraid that the stage manager in me immediately thought, “Oh my goodness: this will kill comedy and light entertainment of the spontaneous type that this country excels in”.

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, I not sure why these two amendments have been grouped together because they are completely different. However, I will deal with the first one on metadata. I do not know what it has to do with stripping metadata off whatever you might read on the internet. It is saying, as far as I can make out, that if you have an automated system that comes across some metadata, it should respond to that intelligently and either not breach copyright or know that you are permitted to use it. But it does nothing about controlling the metadata or stopping people from stripping it.

In as much as it is saying that you should look at the metadata and therefore respond to it intelligently, yes, that is a nice thought. However, I wonder whether many programmes would be able to do that. I can see that it is probably targeted more towards the search engines and various things like that. I can see some problems with this and think that it will have to go into regulation to work out how to handle it.

We also need to think about the world stage and what is being done in other countries, because a lot of these things that look for items on the internet are based abroad. We want something that is practically useful. We do not want to drive things out of the UK. I am not saying that we should breach copyright and I think that we should use metadata intelligently to try to achieve the aims that we want, but we must be careful how we do it.

I am also keen on the use of data mining for research purposes. For example, you can talk to Wellcome and such people. Huge benefits have come from looking at disparate research material. Very often, new discoveries come from matching things from completely different spheres. That is what we forget when we worry about the protection of copyright for the artist or creative person in that sphere. Actually, researchers have completely different needs. They will not usually go around ripping off other people's ideas.

One of the challenges with this whole area of copyright is that we are trying to treat everything as if it is the same. It is not. Very often, when we benefit one lot we will disadvantage another and we need to be careful not to do that. That slightly worries me.

Leaving that to one side, Amendment 28DZD has a good point behind it, which is that you must have an exception for parody. Leaving the courts to decide what is fair in parody and what is not is very dangerous. As we know, courts are extremely expensive. If you are a small creative group trying to create parody and a big boy comes along and tries to hit you over the head in the courts, you will have to back down. That is bullying. Unfortunately, I do not think that our laws on bullying prevent that. If they did, we might be able to do something about it.

We must be very careful saying that recourse to the courts is workable. Basically, unless you are very rich or very poor, you are outside the law. You are not protected by British law because it is too expensive. That is something I have become aware of in general. We cannot rely on it. I think it is very important, but I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. We cannot try to attribute every single little thing that one tries to parody. That would be absolutely ridiculous and unworkable. Without that bit about the attribution, the idea that we are trying to protect parody is extremely important. Therefore, I like this amendment; it just needs a bit of tidying up, I suspect.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Debate between Earl of Erroll and Baroness Brinton

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, I, too, spoke about this danger at an earlier stage of the Bill, and I think the amendment is sensible. Sometimes there are unintended consequences when we make rules, but in this case, because people have seen that there are almost certainly going to be some adverse consequences for UK research establishments, it is sensible to delay implementing this part of the Bill until we have thought about it a little harder and seen some results from other places.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I want to add to the comments about the complexities of the data sets, which the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, outlined earlier. I am grateful for the Minister’s comments about addressing this after post-legislative scrutiny. Does he have any idea when that is likely to conclude and therefore when there might be a review? I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for his agreement to meet me and my noble friend Lady Hamwee outside the legislative process to see whether we can get some clarity on the whole vexed issue of exemptions with the advice to higher education institutions of the Information Commissioner.