National Citizen Service Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th November 2016 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lady Byford that this has been rather a wander as opposed to a highly focused debate on these amendments, but it has also been very useful. I thank noble Lords for highlighting so articulately and passionately the ongoing importance that citizenship and citizenship education must play in our country. We agree with my noble friend Lord Cormack that NCS must be, as it says in his amendment, “for all young people”, no matter what their background. As we have discussed, the functions set out in full in the royal charter attempt to capture, in the most appropriate form, what the NCS is and should always be. They include an objective to seek to expand the number of participants.

We know that volunteering can promote a sense of citizenship, and social engagement is one of the NCS programme’s core elements. The latest independent Ipsos MORI evaluation showed that NCS graduates give back to their communities an extra six hours per month. They feel more able to have an impact on the world around them and say that they are more likely to vote, so there are elements of citizenship there. But the NCS is not designed to establish a national citizenship scheme. It is not equipped or funded to do so.

The Government wish to put the NCS Trust on a stable and assured footing so that it may promote the NCS programme across the country to young people, parents, carers, schools and local authorities, to become a scheme that can deliver these outcomes, as my noble friend was intimating, for every young person on the cusp of adulthood who wants a place. Our manifesto commitment is clear on that, so I hope my noble friend Lord Cormack can be assured of the Bill’s aspiration. But as we expand the scheme to allow more young people to benefit, we must concentrate on our primary goals to maintain the success and quality we have had so far, to which my noble friend referred. He also mentioned an obligation to do NCS, but the NCS must remain voluntary to retain its ethos. It will fail if young people feel it is compulsory for them to do it.

The second amendment in this group, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, would require the trust to set out in its annual business plan the ways in which the NCS contributes to citizenship education more broadly. I fear I must repeat the point that the NCS Trust must be allowed to focus its resources and reporting on its primary functions, namely to enable participants from different backgrounds to work together in local communities to participate in projects to benefit society, and to enhance the skills of those participants. Although the links to citizenship are clear, it would not be practical for the trust to report more widely on citizenship education.

Citizenship education is mandatory in state-maintained schools, as part of the national curriculum. The citizenship curriculum aims to equip young people with knowledge, skills and understanding to prepare them to play a full and active part in modern Britain. The NCS is part of the citizenship landscape of this country, as are many organisations working with young people and helping them to become more resilient and informed members of society, but asking the trust to report on work wider than its core mission risks distracting it from delivering a quality programme. I hope that noble Lords can take assurance that the NCS complements an ongoing commitment to the importance of citizenship education in schools.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bird, for making the point that the NCS has the potential to encourage democratic engagement and participation among young people. We are in full agreement. The draft charter requires that the trust must have regard to,

“encouraging participants to take an interest in debate on matters of local or national political interest, and promoting their understanding of how to participate in national and local elections”.

This will ensure that the NCS Trust keeps these considerations at the front of its mind whenever it makes decisions about how to deliver its core mission. In short, the aim here was to capture, as concisely as possible, the very point the noble Lord makes. The NCS Trust is working jointly with the democratic engagement team in the Cabinet Office to explore the possibilities for the NCS to contribute to this agenda. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Bird, not to press his amendment.

Without making any commitment, I should say that my noble friend the Minister is only too happy to hold meetings with as many Peers as he can. I have always wanted to say that. None the less my noble friend Lord Ashton of Hyde is happy to meet noble Lords before the next stage of the Bill. I also make a commitment to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, that we will write to her on the issue that she raised.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the noble Earl has just remarked that this is a cross-departmental issue, involving the Cabinet Office, Department for Education, DCMS and one or two others. I urge him and the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, to take this back and perhaps write to us all with the suggestion that we might have a cross-departmental meeting with Peers to discuss how a broader approach to citizenship might be taken forward across Whitehall.

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, we will of course consider what the noble Lord has said and write to him about our final decision on that matter, but at the moment I would ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

Turkish HDP Party

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Wednesday 9th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Viscount’s point about the judiciary has been made very plain in the many bilaterals that are taking place with the Turkish Government. We urge the HDP to sever any links with PKK and renounce violence and, more importantly, urge that all parties in Turkey return to the peace process.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, during the referendum campaign the current Foreign Secretary promised that Turkey was about to join the European Union and gain free movement. Is that now the official view of the Foreign Office, or is it now switching gear, as one hopes it might, to consider whether there will be Kurdish refugees coming from Turkey to join the substantial Kurdish population in London, and that we need to co-operate with our European partners in preparation for that?

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, the position of the Foreign Office has not changed, so the UK remains committed to driving reform, embedding stability and addressing shared challenges, such as security and migration in Turkey. I underline the fact that our bilateral relations with Turkey are very good.

Government Archives

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, refers to the transitional arrangements, the timetable for which was established by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. It set out the agreed timetable for transitioning from the 30-year to 20-year rule, which should be completed by 2023.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I ask in particular about the Hanslope Park FCO archives. My wife, with a number of other scholars, visited them some time ago and we are grateful to the FCO for that. There was a huge set of files there—somewhere between 600,000 and 1 million—many of which have not been catalogued, let alone cleared. We were grateful to the Foreign Office for providing a number of retired diplomats to assist in this. Can we have a commitment from the Government that they will continue to provide additional funds so that those files can be sorted and cleared as quickly as possible, given how enormous the archive is?

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Lord makes a good point. The amount of files in various departments to go through—some relating way back to prisoner of war details and details of those serving in the armed services—is enormous. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is working as hard as it can to clear this backlog.

UN Security Council: Kazakhstan

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Lord has said. The OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights noted that, while the elections were “efficiently organised”, there was still room for much improvement and there needs to be a “genuine political choice” and more media pluralism.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we all recognise the importance of Kazakhstan and the other central Asian countries in the stability of Asia—in particular, given their Sunni Muslim populations, in the enormous overlapping problems between central Asia and the rest of the Middle East. Nevertheless, we recognise that there is a good deal of corruption in Kazakhstan. Has the noble Earl noted the number of Kazakhs who came into Britain in recent years under the tier 1 investor visa scheme? Have we checked whether the money they invested in Britain was lawfully acquired in Kazakhstan?

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, makes some very interesting points. I will ensure that we look—

Companies: Remuneration

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, mentioned the situation relating to Wales. There are always continuing relationships between the Assembly in Wales and the department here in London.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, given that fewer than one in four eligible voters voted for the Conservatives in the election, does the noble Earl have much confidence that the majority of voters also approved of the Conservative manifesto’s proposals?

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, I did not quite catch the last bit but I caught the first bit. An awful lot more voted for the Conservatives than they did for the Liberal Democrats.

Arms Sales: Saudi Arabia

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 28th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. The noble Lord mentioned the report of the panel of experts, the subject of which was brought up in the Statement in the other place. Although this is a leaked document, we are aware of the report and are looking at the conclusions carefully. We recognise the importance of the work of the UN panel of experts and we are taking the allegations raised in the report very seriously. We are continuing more than conversations; in fact, we have been urging on these matters for months, since I answered a Question on Yemen back at the end of October, when my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary had just been to Saudi Arabia and discussed this subject with Saudi authorities.

I also confirm that my honourable friend Mr Elwood was in Saudi Arabia earlier this week, when a number of such matters were discussed. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also asked about the military involvement of United Kingdom forces. I can say that British personnel are not involved in carrying out strikes, directing or conducting operations in Yemen or selecting targets, and are not involved in the Saudi targeting decision-making process.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Earl will be aware that my party has been doubtful about how close the British Government have become with the Saudis and the other Gulf monarchies over recent years, and about the particular emphasis on selling as many arms as possible to all of them which has characterised Conservative policy. It was a matter of dispute within the coalition, particularly over a number of arms sales to Saudi Arabia, and it continues to be a concern of ours, recognising that once you have sold the weapons systems, the argument for resupplying the armaments that they use becomes very strong if you want to carry on selling weapons. That is part of the difficulty we are in.

Can we be assured that the Government are intervening very actively with the Saudis to influence what is happening in Yemen, where it seems that the Saudi Government are overpersuaded that this is an Iranian plot, rather than a complex intertribal war among a number of local players? Are the Government considering whether the Bahraini Government—a Sunni minority governing a Shia majority—should pay for the expansion of the British base there, so that we may end up being dependent on the Sunni monarchies in what risks becoming a Sunni-Shia conflict across the Middle East?

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, on the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, concerning the Bahrainis, I do not have any information on that in my brief, but I will, of course, write to him. I know that, with his experience in the department, he is very well aware of the conditions out there. He also asked about the overall supply of weapons to Saudi Arabia. He will remember, because I am sure he came to this Dispatch Box himself on this subject on many occasions, that extant licences are subject to review and can be suspended or revoked where the export is no longer consistent with the criteria.

Hong Kong: Kidnapping of British Subjects

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 14th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Lord, Lord Soley, is quite correct in what he says and if I have anything more to add on this I will write to him. It is also quite correct that other countries were involved; a citizen of one of the Scandinavian countries, who is part of this publishing group, has also gone missing.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we have obviously condemned the abduction of South Koreans into North Korea and some of us have condemned rendition for other purposes by other countries. Are we now giving different advice to British citizens of Chinese origin about travel to both mainland China and Hong Kong, if they have been involved in any form of political activity?

[The Earl of Courtown]

I do not think that we are at present, but what also concerns us is what is happening in Hong Kong in the media and the publishing sector, where books are being published that could perhaps be deemed critical of the Beijing leadership. There is a certain amount of self-regulation going on, which cannot be a good thing.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Funding

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 19th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, has mentioned the ODA budget. We have an excellent record of leveraging the ODA for the broader priorities of Her Majesty’s Government, not just the important role of poverty alleviation but the other areas to which the noble Lord has drawn attention.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, when the Ukraine crisis broke out, the FCO really felt its lack of expertise on Russia. If the FCO’s staff is cut further, expertise to analyse what is happening at the moment in countries in other very sensitive areas such as Central Asia, the North Caucasus and the Middle East will be in short supply. Do the Government take that into account when considering whether they can further cut the FCO both at home and abroad?

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, I always take careful note of what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has to say, due to his previous role in the department. Just to go into the number of posts, yes we have fewer posts than we had 10 years ago. However, since 2010 we have not closed any sovereign posts and we have opened or upgraded 18 posts under the network shift programme and strategic reprioritisation exercises, as well as deploying around 300 extra front-line staff in more than 30 countries.

Europe: Renegotiation

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned treaty change, and of course it will eventually have to be made in various areas. As for the first part of the noble Lord’s question, I will write to him.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, in these negotiations, will the Government be sure to look after the interests of the 2 million British citizens living elsewhere in the European Union? As the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, reminds us so frequently, people like him who are residents of other EU countries would be adversely affected if we were to leave, and we would naturally wish the interests of the noble Lord and others to be fully protected in these negotiations.

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, this has also been debated during the course of the European Union Referendum Bill. The noble Lord is quite right, of course—the interests of 2 million citizens have to be protected.

President Sisi: Visit

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 2nd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, the noble Lord has mentioned a number of different areas which are a little wide of the subject of this Question. We want to see more progress in Egypt, including better protection of Egyptians’ constitutional rights and freedom of expression, along with more space for NGOs and civil society, all of which are key to long-term stability. Our relationship with Egypt lets us raise these issues, and Ministers and officials regularly do so. The President’s forthcoming visit is a further opportunity to raise issues of concern.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has said twice that we are going to discuss political progress with President al-Sisi, and I think many of us would agree that Egypt will be stable only if it allows political progress to be made. Can he tell us what sort of political progress for Egypt we have in mind?

[The Earl of Courtown]

A number of issues have been raised by Peers around the House and we want to see progress on all of them.

Yemen

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 29th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, as the noble Lord said, issues relating to activities on both sides are causing great concern—whether it is the bombing of a hospital, the use of child soldiers or the use of schools and hospitals for military purposes. But the noble Lord will also be aware that any judgment on whether specific international crimes have occurred is a matter for international judicial decision rather than for Governments and non-judicial bodies.

As far as the Médecins Sans Frontières hospital is concerned, which I think is what the noble Lord was referring to, we are aware of the alleged air strike by the Saudi-led coalition and we await further news on that.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we must admit that the British record in controlling Aden was not particularly wonderful and that Yemen has never been an entirely coherent state. Britain now prides itself on the closeness of its links with Saudi Arabia and the GCC coalition that is intervening. Can we be assured that conversations with the Saudis on what is happening in Yemen are close and confidential and have not been adversely affected by the recent letter from the Saudi ambassador in London?

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, we continue at all times, as the noble Lord is aware, to have talks at the highest level on all these issues.

Diplomatic Missions: Parking Fines

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

I have quite a short answer for the noble Lord. Diplomatic vehicles are inviable—no, I mean inviolable, which is a new word for me.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, there are some more serious offences that various diplomatic missions commit. Some arise from mistreatment and sexual abuse of domestic workers, particularly domestic workers brought from other countries. Since the Government are so concerned about human rights in international relations, as we have seen from their conversations with the Chinese, are they considering pushing within the United Nations for diplomatic immunity to be modified in cases of severe human rights abuses? May I also ask, since Gulf diplomats are the ones who are often the most at stake, could we watch carefully the number of people from Gulf states in London claiming diplomatic status?

Gaza Strip: Rafah Crossing

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 30th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Lord makes a good point about approaches to the problems in this area. We are concerned by the restrictions at the Rafah crossing and are urging the Egyptians to show maximum flexibility in reopening it. We are also calling on Israel to fulfil its obligation by lifting its restrictions in order to ease the suffering of ordinary Palestinians and to allow the Gaza economy to grow.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we have already seen Fatah lose control of Gaza to Hamas, and we now see signs that Hamas is threatened by more radical groups within Gaza which might, indeed, include supporters of IS. Given the cycle of violence between Israel and Gaza—and it is a cycle of violence, with both sides playing roles in it—do we not need something more urgent and imaginative to avoid what would be a disaster for the already poor relations between Israel and both entities of Palestine?

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Lord makes a good point. The humanitarian situation in Gaza is deeply concerning, so we are urging key donors to disburse the Cairo pledges. We are encouraging the Palestinian Authority, as the noble Lord said, to engage more in Gaza and to move forwards on reconciliation. We are also continuing to press Israel to do more on exports, power, movements and access. As I said earlier, we are also urging Egypt to show more flexibility at the Rafah crossing.

Eritrea

Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 16th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, having visited that country, is certainly very aware of the terrible things that have happened there. We are deeply concerned by the commission’s report published on 8 June. We are reviewing its findings carefully and will discuss next steps with international partners at the UN Human Rights Council on 23 June. At this stage, the commission has not concluded that crimes against humanity are taking place; it has called for further investigation into whether this is the case. One problem is that the commission was not allowed into Eritrea in the first place.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, there have been consistent reports of gun-running from Eritrea to Somalia, Sudan and other such places and destabilisation of some of the surrounding countries. What discussions have Her Majesty’s Government, or their European colleagues, had with the African Union about the extent to which Eritrea is actively destabilising the region?

[The Earl of Courtown]

A number of meetings have been arranged between the African Union and the EU under the Khartoum process, which the noble Lord will be aware of. There will be a further meeting later in the autumn when more of these matters will be discussed.