Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Debate between Earl of Clancarty and Lord Howarth of Newport
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, I regret that I was unable to participate at Second Reading—the aeroplane I was in did not land until mid-afternoon—but I hope I may join in the proceedings today on this very important measure. I add my welcome and thanks to the Minister for introducing this Bill in your Lordships’ House.
I fully sympathise with the desire of my noble friend to ensure that the provisions that we legislate are up to date and that the definition of culture is as contemporary as it can be and is, as far as possible, future-proof. However, does he feel that the term “movable property” may, with sufficient ingenuity and latitude taken by the courts, satisfy what he seeks to achieve? The subsequent list of examples given in the definition in Article 1 of the convention, to which he referred, is illustrative only. It does, of course, reflect conceptions of culture that were prevalent at that date. However, I am concerned and would be grateful if my noble friend would explain how he deals with the very practical legal objection that has been put forward by Professor Roger O’Keefe, who warns us that it is dangerous to mess about—not his words but mine—with the definition or its interpretation. He says:
“The definition is found in a treaty to which 127 states are currently parties. International law dictates that the definition be the same and be interpreted the same way by all states parties”.
He is concerned that, if we now attempt to alter a definition that has been acceded to by 127 other states parties, difficulties may arise. Among those, he suggests that there could be,
“knock-on effects under international law. Not the least of these would be that the UK would be asserting forms of extraterritorial jurisdiction”,
with all the sensitivities that go with that.
While I fully sympathise with the objective of my noble friend, it would help the Committee if he would explain how he would deal with that technical, but very important, objection that we have been advised of.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, I too am sympathetic to the aims of Amendment 1, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. This should not just be about new technology, since new art and culture are being made as we speak, using traditional media as well. We should not forget that art, and much of our culture, is made by people and, indeed, people tragically die making a contribution to the culture of their country. I am thinking in particular of the confirmation this week of the tragic deaths of the five Syrian journalists at the hands of ISIS, as well as that of the Syrian journalist Khaled al-Essa.
On the amendment—although this is not to do with military conflict—I know that I, and many others, in recent times felt a considerable sense of loss after the Momart fire in 2004. Fortunately, that was a rare event, but it included the destruction of over 50 of the best major works by the artist Patrick Heron. I mention this simply to say that culture does not have to be 2,000 years old for a great loss to be felt, and newer work in new and old formats is precious as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned film. It might be added that old cine-film and old photographs are very old indeed in terms of the development of these technologies and art forms through the 20th and 21st centuries.