Earl of Clancarty
Main Page: Earl of Clancarty (Crossbench - Excepted Hereditary)Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Earl of Clancarty Excerpts
The Earl of Clancarty
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Amendment 2 is consequential to Amendment 5. They all deal with new Section 138A, which is the meat of the Bill, concerning council prayers. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Flather, for putting their names to Amendment 1, which seeks to remove council prayers from the Bill, but leaves new Section 138B, which deals with religious events. The noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, give their apologies that they cannot be present this morning.
This time two weeks ago, the House was discussing a global matter in the shape of the International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill. We have gone from the global to the local, albeit applied nationally in England and Wales, and the very local indeed if you cast your eye over the very extensive list on pages 2 and 3 of bodies to be covered by this Bill. Nevertheless, this Bill is, or ought to be, understood as being part of something larger, which is the place of religion in society and, indeed, the place of religion in the workplace, which is the subject of a significant report published yesterday by the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said that the Bill is a simple measure. In a way, that is true, but what he did not say is that it is an uncontroversial measure. There are Private Members’ Bills that pass through this House—we have had one or two recently—that have close to unanimous support from Peers and public alike. This is not such a Bill, and therefore deserves the scrutiny that it is now able to get.
One of my concerns about this Bill is the place it came from. Why was there felt to be a need for this Bill in the first place? That is the question to be asked of anyone who says that this is a modest measure. Instead of the Government asking how widely shared are the concerns that individuals may feel excluded after the 2012 High Court ruling, which would be the proper and realistic response to that ruling, in reaction a Bill has been brought in that simply wants to put us back to where we were and sweeps such concerns under the carpet and refuses to acknowledge them.
As I said at Second Reading, councillors are not elected for their religious beliefs. They are elected for what they are pledged to do for the local area and for their political affiliations. Councillors are the electorate’s servants. In that light, if we are to have this Bill, in the interests of what should be the scrupulous impartiality of councils towards all beliefs and non-beliefs, a better compromise solution would be silent prayer, which I have tabled as Amendment 3.
The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and I share views about areas of arts and culture. For example, I am completely with him in his campaign to restore and maintain the great cathedrals and churches, which are great religious works of art, but I do not believe in tradition for its own sake. The fact that a council has been saying prayers as part of official business for hundreds of years does not mean that it should be saying prayers for the next few hundred years, and not today if that is an inappropriate practice in the modern age. I stress that we now live in a multi-belief and non-belief culture. At the very least, traditions can be modified, and Amendments 4 and 5 are reasonable improvements to the Bill. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for his support for these amendments.
Amendment 4 would do quite a bit to mitigate a sense of exclusion by separating prayers and the remainder of business from each other. Amendment 5 ensures a two-thirds majority agreement that has to be renewed annually, ensuring that if prayers are a tradition they are nevertheless a living tradition that is not to be taken for granted. I hope that not only the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, but the two Front Bench speakers would agree that these are two very reasonable amendments to the Bill. I say “would” because, because of time constraints, we are in the invidious situation of this being an all-or-nothing Bill. I am not sure whether that is democracy in action, but it is the situation. I beg to move.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
I should remind your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 2 to 5 by reason of pre-emption.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken in this debate and who have made powerful contributions. I am very glad that we have had a proper debate on these issues, which contrasts, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has said, with the empty House of two weeks ago. That is a very good thing.
In this debate, there has been quite a lot of talk about the permissiveness of this Bill. Yes, it is a permissive Bill but it is permissive in one direction. People may ask, “Why can’t councillors who don’t want to go into prayers stand outside during prayers?”, as was suggested by he noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark, and others. However, that leaves a fundamental question: why should any councillor have to be put in the position of feeling excluded from any part of the official business on the grounds of their beliefs or non-beliefs? The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked whether the Localism Act has any powers over council prayer. I am sure that that is questionable. No chances are being taken with the full range of authorities set out in this Bill. Of course, it is the Local Government Act 1972 that is being amended, not the Localism Act.
In answer to the question of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, the relationship between public religion and councils will be dealt with in the second grouping. Council prayers and the religious life of a borough are two quite different matters.
I was disappointed, in particular, with the responses of the Front Benches to Amendments 4 and 5, two reasonable amendments which would improve the Bill. However, there is a sense that there cannot be any budging from how the Bill stands at present, which is of course how it came into this House. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
My Lords, I must advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendments 7 or 8 for reasons of pre-emption.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, I have little against the contents of proposed new Section 138B. I think I am probably with the majority of the country who would like to see council prayers dropped but would defend a council having an involvement in religion as a significant aspect, if one aspect, of the life of the borough.
At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, mentioned Lewisham Council’s involvement in acts of remembrance and in Holocaust Memorial Day. Of course, one can think of many other examples of events of a religious or part religious nature. I have no problems with any of this. As I say, the great majority of the country would not object to—indeed, might insist on—such involvement. None of this is at risk.
My quibble is with the word “support”, which over eggs it. Impartiality is the key. My concern is that this proposed new section is not necessary. There is something slightly peculiar about having this alongside council prayers in the same Bill. They are entirely different matters, and I think that the public can make that distinction.