House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Tyler

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, that is the noble Lord’s interpretation of the agreement. I was not party to it, but it was introduced by the then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, and it was binding in Privy Council terms on all of us who took part in that debate. That was a binding commitment. I have tabled an amendment that we shall come to later to try to help the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, get to the same position that I want to get to, which is to get rid of the hereditary Peers in this House.

Perhaps I may return to my amendments. I set out in quite considerable detail how the House of Lords statutory appointments commission should work. It will come as no surprise to my noble friend Lord Young on the Front Bench because he will recognise the details. They come from Schedules 5 and 6 to the 2012 Bill, which, sadly, failed in another place. I would have supported it had it come to this House. His name was on that Bill, as indeed was Danny Alexander’s, so I presume that the Liberal party still supports a statutory appointments commission, and I look forward to getting the support of its Members for this.

I do something slightly different from my noble friend. I set out that there should be a House of Lords appointments commission, and, equally and importantly, that there should be a Speakers’ committee comprising 13 members, as designed in 2012, to oversee the statutory appointments commission. It was drafted by a government draftsman, so I will not go into any detail, but I hope that the House will give this consideration. As my noble friend Lord Strathclyde said, there would be a lacuna. When the hereditary Peers go, it would be a much better arrangement if there were a totally independent committee to look at all appointments. My amendment covers all that. Proposed new subsection (4) in Amendment 58 says that it should come into operation,

“on a statutory basis, with the role of screening, selecting and recommending all persons for appointment to the House of Lords”.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

Does the noble Earl recall that he advanced this argument at length in Committee on 23 November 2018? Does he also recall that the Companion says at paragraph 8.138:

“Arguments fully deployed either in Committee of the whole House or in Grand Committee should not be repeated at length on report”?


What does he have to say to that?

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I raised this amendment in Committee and, as with many amendments tabled in Committee, I have brought it forward again on Report. Where I disagree with the noble Lord is in him saying that I raised it at length; it was a very short speech.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Tyler

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 7th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. I would like to add a few words in support of my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s amendment. I believe the Government should grasp this nettle. I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, on this; to many others, this is not a minor matter. There was a solemn and binding commitment in 1999 that we entered into. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, that you cannot bind the next Government, but this was a hugely important matter for this House. We were requested by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, on honour, to vote in that election. When I have discussed this with people both within the House and outside it, I am quite surprised by the reactions. In this House I have been told, “It doesn’t really matter in politics; there is no such thing as binding honour”.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Caithness]

May I just finish what I am saying, please? It is a very House of Commons attitude to keep on interrupting when someone is developing a theme.

[The Earl of Caithness]

It is perfectly true. This never used to happen; I have been here for a day or two.

Outside the House, people who think I am wrong in the position that I take on this Bill agree with me that there is a huge point of principle and I am absolutely justified in the position that I am taking. The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett—

[Lord Tyler]

I just want to correct the history that is being advanced this morning. The author of this provision, Lord Weatherill, referred to it as temporary. On 11 May 1999, the Lord Chancellor himself said, using strong words, that this would last only through the transitional House and that the transitional House would be brought to an end in the next Parliament. How does the noble Earl therefore justify his comments?

Farriers (Registration) Bill

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Tyler

Order of Commitment discharged (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, I wonder whether it would be appropriate for me to ask a question of the noble Earl, and indeed of the Minister. I wonder whether either of them have seen the report—published today, as I understand it—by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, referring to some important aspects of this particular Bill, which of course has been looked at literally only today by that committee, on which I serve. There are aspects that raise the controversial issues of the Henry VIII clause. The Government originally supported the Bill and produced a Memorandum for the Committee about these matters on behalf of the noble Earl and the Bill’s promoters in the other House.

These questions raise important issues about executive expediency. We all recognise that at this stage of a Parliament it is extremely important to complete the business that is before both Houses, but I believe, and I think Members of your Lordships’ House will agree with me, that we should not do it simply for the expediency of the Executive. If there are matters that are of concern to this House about the way in which secondary legislation following from the Bill is to be handled by Parliament, we in this House are duty-bound to ask those questions. It would be wrong, simply because we are faced with an early general election or indeed the end of a Session, simply to fast-track legislation without proper regard to these issues of scrutiny. I am sure the noble Earl would agree with me, as he is a strong protagonist for the responsibilities of this House.

I wonder whether the noble Earl and the Minister will now be in a position to comment on the important qualifications that have been brought forward by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to your Lordships’ House today on the issue of secondary legislation. It is not immediately apparent why the promoters of the Bill, and indeed the Government, did not use the LRO procedure, which would have been more appropriate. It would have meant that we had proper scrutiny of the secondary legislation that follows from the Bill.

I am sure other Members of your Lordships’ House will agree with me that we should not simply be accelerating procedures for the convenience of the Government. What we should be doing is our duty in terms of proper scrutiny. In that respect, I hope both the noble Earl and the Minister will agree that proper regard should be paid to the committee’s concerns.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am grateful for the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. This Bill is not for the benefit of the Government; it is for the benefit of the farriers and updating the law.

I am aware of the report. I have not had time to discuss it with the Minister, but I plan to do so immediately this Motion has been agreed because I think it right and proper that I should do so. Had we had sight of the report earlier, I would have been able to see the Minister before now, and I apologise to the House for not having been able to. However, I shall do so immediately after this.