House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Higgins

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Higgins]

On the suggestion that the amendment is withdrawn, my noble friend Lord Steel has made a very clear offer. The amendment does require further consideration, not least because Members who are not present today may well have a view. We can certainly come back to this on Report or at Third Reading.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, this amendment has been on the Order Paper for some considerable time. As regards the argument that some people not here might have a view, I would say “tough”. Let us make a decision now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, perhaps I may again suggest what I suggested previously. The easiest way to do this is that when the noble Lord has spoken to and withdrawn Amendment 142, the subsequent amendments on the Order Paper—other than Amendment 163—should not be moved. We will then vote on Clauses 1, 2 and 3 and then on Amendment 163. We will then proceed quickly.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, is very beguiling and put the onus firmly on my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me. That was a little unfair but that is all in the game of politics, and I accept it. He will know that there are also other amendments. The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, my noble friend Lord Astor and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who is not in his place, have tabled amendments. It is therefore not up to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me to decide that we can suddenly say, “I give way to the noble Lord, Lord Steel”. I repeat that the noble Lord should have discussed his proposal with me previously because I have done a huge amount of work on the first part of the Bill up to Clause 10. I spent many hours preparing these amendments and it is an absolute abuse of any Member of your Lordships' House to be treated in such a way. It is quite wrong.

I have amendments on not just the appointments commission but I have an amendment to create a Joint Committee on a House of Lords appointments commission. Such a proposal is in the Government’s draft Bill and is highly relevant. I want a statutory appointments commission and I am now being denied a chance to debate it—or I am being pressurised by my noble friend Lord Steel not to debate it. However, it is hugely important that we have a statutory commission. As I said right at the beginning, it was my noble friend Lord Steel who wanted a statutory appointments commission. It was he who moved an amendment to the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, regretting that there was not to be a statutory appointments commission. Now it does not suit my noble friend to have an appointments commission in the Bill because he is so keen to get the rest of it through.

My noble friend had another opportunity; he could quite legitimately have withdrawn the Bill and introduced another Bill with no provision for a statutory appointments commission. That would have been the right and proper thing to do. The fact is that he quite deliberately did not do that. He deliberately moved a Motion that has made it extremely difficult for us to have a sensible discussion on a lot of the amendments. I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, my noble friend Lord Astor or the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, think about their amendments. Having done all the work, I should actually like to get on and discuss my amendments. However, I understand that I am in a minority.

Nevertheless, there is an important principle here. Just because one is in a minority in this House does not mean that one does not have the right to move amendments, and one should not be unduly pressurised—which my noble friend is doing to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me—not to move amendments on which we have spent an awful lot of time.

Had it been the other way round at the beginning, and the statutory appointments commission had been right at the end, the noble Lord would have had a more valid case. He could have said: “We have got so far, but we are going to hit the magic hour of three o'clock. Don't let's discuss any more”. That would be much more logical. I cannot decide alone. For a start, Amendment 1 is important. It contains a purpose clause. It is indeed the clause that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, introduced himself the last time that we discussed this. If he wanted it then, surely he wants it now. These are not matters that can be dismissed lightly. Without the approval of other noble Lords, I cannot make a decision for them. We shall see how we proceed, but I beg to withdraw Amendment 142.