Assets of Community Value (England) Regulations 2012
Debate between Earl Cathcart and Baroness Thornton
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, I am a farmer and a landowner. In the recent past I was a Norfolk councillor. I use the words recent past because I stopped being a councillor almost five years ago.
I thank my noble friend Lady Hanham for all the time and effort that she has spent on this issue. The Minister and her team have worked tirelessly to ensure that it hits the intended spot and has no unintended consequences. I am certain that the rural community is most grateful for all the hard work that they have done.
I have no problems with these regulations, but I had hoped that they would clarify two or three issues in the Act, all relating to Section 88. First, land in the existing use category is of community value,
“if in the opinion of the authority … the non-ancillary use furthers the social well-being or social interests of the local community and … it is realistic to think that there can continue to be non-ancillary use”
serving those objectives. This raises two questions, on which the regulations and the Act are silent. I had hoped that these regulations would clarify these matters. First, when is a use non-ancillary and, secondly, what evidence needs to be put before the local authority in determining whether in its opinion a relevant use is realistic?
The second category of land of community value is the land in past use. If in the opinion of the local authority, there is a time in the recent past when an actual non-ancillary use fulfilled the two objectives of furthering social well-being or social interests of the local community,
“and it is realistic to think that … in the next five years … there could be a non-ancillary use”
made that met either of these objectives, it is land of community value.
This “past use” category also raised my third question: what is the recent past? In September 2011, the Assets of Community Value—Policy Statement said that the Government’s view on the recent past,
“is that we will leave it to the local authority to decide, since ‘recent’ might be viewed differently in different circumstances”.
This will cause uncertainty for landowners as the recent past may be the past 10 or 15 years for one local authority and the past two or three years for another. Can the Minister provide more clarity on what is meant by “recent past” so that there is some consistency between local authorities?
If asked my opinion, I would say that up to five years would be a reasonable time, hence my saying, “In the recent past I was a local councillor”. I suggest five years for two reasons. First, the Act already says that,
“it is realistic to think that … in the next five years … there could be non-ancillary use”.
It already uses the five-year benchmark. Secondly, an asset drops off the register after five years anyway. Therefore, anything up to five years ago would be reasonable; anything later would be the distant past. I would be most grateful if the Minister would address those three issues.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I have a slight sense of déjà vu. Here we are again discussing this matter, with me supporting the Minister and congratulating her on bringing forward these regulations, as she promised in the course of the Localism Bill. I have one or two questions for clarification.
I agree with the noble Earl that these are quite complex regulations but I also accept what the Minister said. Having read the part about the Land Registry three times, I still do not really understand it and can see that there are some complex interests to balance—those of landowners and those of the legitimate aspirations of local community organisations. That is, as it were, where we came in. I think these regulations do that.
My concern, if I have one, is whether it is too complicated for community organisations to access easily. We will not know that until the whole thing is rolled out and starts to work, or not. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether there is any intention to monitor—in, say, two years’ time—the effectiveness of this legislation and what the issues are for landowners and community organisations.
My second question is on a point of clarification. The Explanatory Notes outline the characteristics of community organisations. I read the Explanatory Notes first because they were more accessible than the regulations. They go into how you recognise what different community interest groups are. Therefore, do the regulations take account of unincorporated organisations? The regulations say that unincorporated community organisations can bid for community assets, which is exactly as it should be. However, if the Explanatory Notes say one thing and the regulations say something else, it is very important that local authorities and those whose land or property is in question are completely clear that unincorporated community organisations have the right to claim an interest in the community asset. It is really a question of clarification, which I am sure can quite easily be resolved. I am assuming that the reasons for which this instrument was drawn to our attention in terms of public policy issues relate to the amount of resources and time that local authorities are expected to put into it. The noble Baroness gave an explanation for that.
Localism Bill
Debate between Earl Cathcart and Baroness Thornton
Baroness Thornton
If I can continue with my remarks I think there will be some agreement across the House. We would all prefer the Secretary of State to have a smaller role in these matters. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that this is a convoluted part of the Bill which may need simplification and to give more reassurance. However, it does not need to be deleted completely. The Government are on the right lines.
In answer to the noble Lord’s question, I would be happy to list for the noble Lord, although perhaps not right now, a host of initiatives that have fallen by the wayside, either because the powers or the time did not exist for community organisations to raise the money—this applies also in rural locations—to enable them to use the asset in question for community benefit. That is what this part of the Bill is about, and I believe that the Government are on the right lines.
During the Second Reading debate I said to the Minister that we needed to discuss this part of the Bill. I have yet to be involved—as have any of my Front-Bench colleagues—in any discussions on this part of the Bill, but we hold ourselves ready. On Tuesday evening several remarks were made about the discussions taking place but, so far, those discussions do not involve us. I hope that that will change. I also hope that organisations that are expert in these issues—the Plunkett Foundation, Locality—will also be involved in those discussions. I am sure and confident that this House can resolve this situation satisfactorily.
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, I was in two minds whether to speak on this but I have something here that I prepared earlier.
The whole chapter has been so badly thought through that, as written, it will do more harm than good. I have two points to make. First, we must not forget that the original aim was to allow communities to save their village shops, pubs and post offices from closure. That is an admirable aim, but no mention is made of businesses and services in the Bill. Why not? Why is the wording so broad? I suppose it was thought that there may be other assets of benefit to communities, and so the scattergun approach was adopted. The great danger of using a scattergun is that one often misses the target—and that is exactly what has happened here.
The Bill needs to be drafted so that it hits the nail on the head. As it is currently written, any person, parish or community group can nominate any asset they deem to be of value to the community. As has been said before, this has put the cat amongst the pigeons. Landowners who for purely altruistic reasons have allowed their communities to use part or all of their land for sport and recreational activities are now reconsidering their positions. On Tuesday, my noble friend the Minister said:
“The fact that my noble friend Lord Moynihan spoke about the loss of sports and recreation facilities if this goes ahead, and that other noble Lords commented on the fact that landowners will be advised not to let their land be used for any community facility, is something of which we need to take cognizance. If that is what is being said, and if that is a fear … We need to take note of that”.—[Official Report, 5/7/11; col. 243.]
I assure my noble friend that I know of national firms of land agents that have already advised their clients of the consequences of this Bill as it is currently written. I was talking to my agent the other day, and at the end of the business he asked me what I was up to. When I said that I was involved in the Localism Bill, he said, “Oh, we are watching the progress in the Lords very carefully and we will advise our clients during the summer”. So warnings and advice have already been given to landowners.
Baroness Thornton
I am bound to ask, what about railway sidings, for example? What about waste land in cities? What about all those places that people want to have access to and cannot? I beg noble Lords to stop thinking about this just in terms of pubs and post offices.
Earl Cathcart
The noble Baroness raises a good point—what about them, indeed? If communities do not use them at the moment, they do not form part of this Bill. It is the very question that my noble friend Lord Reay has just raised.
My second point is that the Government seem hell-bent on the trigger point being when an asset is disposed of or sold. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I do not think that the selling of an asset of community value hits the spot at all. Hundreds of shops and pubs are sold every week up and down the country, with no loss to communities, as the purchasers are another shopkeeper or publican. So the business continues with no loss to the community. The real trigger point is when the facilities are closed down subject to an application for change of use or a demolition order. So I ask my noble friend to listen sympathetically to my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts when he speaks to his Amendment 144.
To illustrate the point, there is great concern over the loss of so many school sports fields to development over the past 20 or 30 years. I do not believe that the measures in this Bill would do anything to stop this in future. The Minister might say, “But they can be listed as assets of community value”. And so they can. But the local authority can give itself planning permission for development without a sale of the land taking place and without triggering the right to bid provisions. The local authority can receive a shed load of money from the developers and retain ownership of the land for a nominal annual ground rent. The land has not been disposed of or sold, but the playing field has been irretrievably lost. Surely there should be an obligation on local authorities to supply alternative sports facilities.
I know that my noble friend is well aware of the shortcomings of this part of the Bill and is as keen as any of your Lordships to get it right. She recognises that the most valuable asset is the current good will and genuine community well-being that already exists.
Localism Bill
Debate between Earl Cathcart and Baroness Thornton
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, given the comprehensive debate we had before the break, I intend to speak for about 30 seconds. This group of amendments is all about who should be represented on the lists to inform either consent or denial. My amendment addresses itself to the fact that it should be community organisations operating in the local authority area; other amendments have different versions of that. In a way, we just need to listen to what noble Lords have to say and then the Minister can respond. I beg to move.
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 136B. There has been much concern that individuals will be allowed to make nominations. The argument is that if an asset is of community value, the nominations should be made by that community group, which has local connections, and not by an individual. This amendment would provide a safeguard against vexatious individuals making nominations, or individuals listing everything they can think of just to be on the safe side. This approach would complement the earlier proposal in Amendment 136ZD, tabled by my noble friend Lord Gardiner, regarding the definition, which would require local authorities to take evidence of community support for a nomination into account. It might be worth defining “voluntary and community bodies” so that it has to be more than 21 people. This is the definition being used for a neighbourhood forum and the principle is the same.
Localism Bill
Debate between Earl Cathcart and Baroness Thornton(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Thornton
My Lords, it is time that someone stood up and said how much they welcome what the Minister had to say and how much they agree, although it may not help her for me to say so from these Benches. On what the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said about Governments of a different complexion, I say to him that in my view my own Government were really rather timid on this matter.
Why does the community right to buy matter? There are thousands of community organisations in this country that need the right to buy. This is not about central government imposing something on the local community; it is about giving a right to buy. I shall take a moment to explain. Healthy, viable communities are in the interests of landowners and everyone else. The community right to buy in the Bill is a significant step towards realising the aspirations of localism, the big society, the good society and community regeneration—aspirations that to a high degree are shared across the political spectrum. It would be a bitter blow for hundreds of communities if these actually quite modest proposals were derailed in this House.
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, just for clarity, I point out that the noble Baroness referred to a “community right to buy”, whereas the Bill is actually about the right to bid. Did the noble Baroness mean “right to bid” rather than “right to buy”?
Baroness Thornton
Thank you for that clarification.
As the noble Baroness said, it is not about forcing a sale, or forcing landowners to sell to a particular bidder; it is about creating even more use of assets, some of which were previously liabilities. In the past, disused buildings, wasteland, schools, libraries, town halls and offices which were becoming redundant have all been used by local communities. The Bill promotes an extension of that activity. For example, in London the Westway Development Trust took over 40 acres of derelict land under the A40 to create a thriving community. In North Yorkshire local villagers bought a failing pub last year and have thus safeguarded a vital community resource. However, a major impediment to this has been the lack of a window of opportunity, to allow time for community groups to bid for key assets in their neighbourhoods before the assets are sold on the open market. Often key assets of huge community significance have slipped through their fingers as a result.
This is an important and practical step. The Government have sought to build safeguards into the Bill, to protect owners’ interests. It would be a great shame if we were to lose what would be a relatively modest step towards giving communities the right to make use of assets which they very much need.