Environment: 25-year Plan

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Monday 29th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, before I start I should declare that I have a farm and forestry and let houses.

I think most people welcome this plan, in that it is wide-ranging in the number of areas covered, but it is short on detail. The plan is an ambition and it sets the direction of travel. It is to be welcomed for that but some NGOs are disappointed by the lack of consultation before the plan was published, so Defra must engage with the NGOs and those who will implement the plan. Some NGOs originally expected a high-level framework of the plan to be published before a more detailed version, and stakeholders to have already been consulted before the final plan was put together, but this did not happen. Defra asked the Natural Capital Committee to advise it on its aims for the plan. There was some disappointment that the NCC’s membership consisted entirely of seven professors. It was all academics with no farmers, foresters or agronomists et cetera involved. So when the flesh is put on the bones of this skeleton plan, it is vital that full consultation is carried out with experts on the ground—those who have to put the plan into practice. Without that, the plan will just not work.

Secondly, farmers have carried out a huge amount of work over the last 30 or 40 years to encourage wildlife, as well as benefiting the landscape, soil and water and reducing their impact on the climate, much of which was unpaid. Most farmers have already planted trees. On my farm we have planted six new woods, half of which received no grant. I suspect that most farmers and landowners would like more trees on their land. Farmers have also planted over 20,000 miles of hedges, some with a grant but many without. Like many others, we have recently cleaned out four ponds without grants. This will let the sunlight in and encourage insects.

Like many areas in the countryside we have one of the local cluster farm groups that have already been mentioned by my noble friends Lady Byford and Lord Selborne. I am a member of one that consists of about 20 farmers, who work together over 20,000 acres to produce a cohesive environment programme that boosts biodiversity in that enlarged group of farms, rather than each of us working in isolation. In our case, our aim is to encourage turtle doves, grey partridges and lapwings, along with barn owls and snipe, marsh fritillaries and other butterflies, bats and wetland plants. My point is that farmers already do a huge amount of environmental work for no extra payment. So as far as this plan is concerned, if the Government get it right they should be pushing at an open door.

Thirdly, how do the Government encourage farmers to take up any of these schemes? It must be remembered that farmers and landowners need to make a profit from their enterprise to survive. This includes farming and environmental schemes. Without a profitable farm business, farmers will go bust and then there will not be the people to look after the environment. For example, cereal growers might expect to make a profit of between £150 to £200 an acre, depending, of course, on the price and yield. So when these environmental schemes are put forward, the Government should have in the back of their mind that farmers should be compensated sufficiently for the loss of this potential profit, because any environment scheme will take acres out of production for the farmer. One recent Countryside Stewardship scheme was very poorly taken up by farmers because it was overcomplicated and the amount being paid to them was a fraction of what they would get if they continued to grow cereals. As for the Government encouraging farmers and landowners to plant woodland, why would a cereal grower plant, say, 100 acres of woodland and forgo an annual profit of £15,000 to £20,000 for cereals when he will not receive a return from his forestry investment for 30 or 40 years? I will certainly be dead by then.

Many people think that food production and environmental projects are incompatible. I do not believe that is right and I encourage the Government to produce an environmental policy based on encouraging farming activities that not only improve productivity but deliver environmental benefits or improve our resource efficiency. This plan could be very exciting if only the Government will listen to those who have to put it into practice.

Brexit: Non-chemical Farming Methods

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Again, my Lords, the regulations are strong, as it is essential that there is no harm to people or the environment. One thing we are working on in our 25-year environment plan, which is all about enhancing the environment, is the importance of soil health and fertility. It is very important that pesticides are used sustainably and that, wherever possible, we can reduce their use.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, as a farmer, can I ask the Minister whether he agrees that 25% to 75% of crops, depending on the crop, might be lost if no pesticides were used? Presumably, the alternative is to go for 100% GM crops.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, on the issue of yields, the use of pesticides is precisely to protect crops and grassland. Obviously, we need to use them carefully and have them well regulated. Without pesticides, undoubtedly yields would be reduced. The most important thing is that there is active co-operation on this now: 4.4 million hectares of land are involved in the voluntary initiative and the integrated pest management situation. All of that is strong news.

Agriculture, Fisheries and the Rural Environment

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, no doubt I will be proved wrong but I am sure that everything has been said about the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, by now. So I just wish him a very happy and well-deserved retirement. I shall miss him.

As a farmer and egg producer, I will talk about the egg industry—a great success story, achieved without grants or subsidies. Last winter we had a number of outbreaks of bird flu. We were required under a veterinary order to keep our hens housed to protect them from the threat of the virus. This lasted for 18 weeks, two days. If birds are housed for more than 12 weeks, the producer loses his free range status and can sell his eggs only as barn eggs, at a fraction of the price of free range eggs, so that continued production becomes unviable and unprofitable. So I thank my noble friend, Defra and the British egg industry for persuading Brussels to extend the 12 weeks to 16. If approved, this will greatly help producers.

My main point concerns the current rules for the cleaning and disinfection of sheds when there is an outbreak of bird flu. Many EU countries perform only one cleanse and disinfection operation; for example, Holland has never had a further outbreak following the one cleaning-out operation. The German process is much swifter and cheaper than ours. Britain does the operation twice. The first is paid for by Defra, which sprays the shed with disinfectant, which dampens down the virus. The second operation is paid for by the producer and can cost anything from £5 to £10 per bird. So for a 16,000-hen shed such as mine, this can cost anything from £80,000 to £160,000, depending on how the contaminated muck and water can be dealt with.

What incentive is there for a producer to spend up to £160,000 cleaning his shed when in a normal year his flock might make a profit of £70,000, so that it will take him two and a half years to recoup the cost? If he does nothing and waits for one year, he is allowed to restart production without needing to do the expensive second clean because the virus is considered dead by then. We should not forget that it is not just the £160,000 for the cleaning; he has also lost his hens, which has cost him £65,000, and when he restocks after cleaning, he will have to buy new hens, at a cost of a further £65,000, plus consequential costs of feed and labour of about £35,000, before he starts generating any profit. He could be £325,000 out of pocket. So why would he want the cost of cleaning if he could avoid it by doing nothing?

However, this inactivity by the producer would be a disaster for the British egg industry as Britain would lose its bird flu-free status for a whole year. There would be no exports of eggs or meat; there would be zones around the producer for the whole year, with all the restrictions on movement, whether of laying hens or hens for meat; and jobs might be lost. The decision not to carry out the cleaning operation would affect the whole UK poultry industry in the most disastrous way. Could we have just one cleaning and disinfection operation like Holland does, and could Defra pay a proportion of that cost, which might just encourage the producer to carry out the cleansing operation?

Animal Welfare Offences

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, whether it is abuse against animals or against human beings, we must do all that we can to reduce the scope for it. With this proposal, we are sending the very strong message that for heinous crimes there will be, among other things, the sanction of a custodial sentence of five years.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the increased sentences for the most heinous cruelty to animals but, given what my noble friend Lord Hailsham said, should we not also be banning these people from keeping animals for life or, if not for life, then for a very long time?

Rural Areas: Income

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord that it is very important that we enhance accessibility. Sparsity and the topography of the countryside mean that there are great challenges. That is why I am particularly pleased that the community minibus fund was launched. It will enable about 300 local charities and community groups across England to receive a new minibus, which will be helpful. Clearly, there is more that we want to do. On the whole issue of transport and accessibility it is important, for instance, that under the post office transformation all post office branches will have banking facilities. There are ways in which we can assist rural communities across the piece.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, as it is National Apprenticeship Week, what are the Government doing to encourage apprenticeships in rural areas?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Government are committed to reaching 3 million apprenticeship starts in England by 2020. That includes trebling the number of apprenticeships in food and farming from 6,000 to 18,000. National parks authorities, for instance, are seeking to double the number of apprenticeships. It is important that we not only encourage apprenticeships this week but work with employers of all sizes. A new apprenticeship levy is coming into force in April this year for larger businesses. This is an enormous opportunity. Raising the skills of young people in the countryside and across the nation is a force for good.

Food Waste

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the first thing I would say is that I very much appreciate the valuable work that FareShare, Company Shop and the Oxford food bank are doing. It is absolutely essential that good surplus food does not go to waste but is directed in the waste hierarchy first for human consumption and then, if it is not fit for that, for animal consumption. The waste hierarchy is very important. I will take up the Oxford issue, because 95% of all supermarkets are engaged in the Courtauld Commitment, and part of that is precisely directed to the redistribution of food.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, what is the annual cost to families of wasting food, and what are the environmental emission consequences of food wastage?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the cost of what is wasted is £470 a year for the average household, and £700 a year for the average household with children. In turn, avoidable food waste is the equivalent of the CO₂ emissions produced by over 7 million cars per year.

Deregulation Bill

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Byford said, my Amendment 12 has been grouped with her Amendment 7. Not surprisingly, the scene has moved on in the long period since Committee, when there was a surprising amount of support for the series of amendments in my name which had the effect of a presumption in favour of a diversion or stopping up of a footpath that passes through the curtilage of a residential building, including the gardens and driveways of premises. In other words, those amendments were somewhat more restrictive than that in the name of my noble friend, which I supported at the time and, as noble Lords can see from the Marshalled List, still do.

Since then, strange things have happened and I have had reports of odd decisions made by footpath officers in local authorities, the worst of which was the refusal to annul a recent order dedicating a footpath through someone’s dining room. The council in question refused point blank to change its decision. It may be—I am sure my noble friend could tell me—that the officers are not allowed to do this under current legislation but they most certainly are under this Bill. That is one good reason for the Bill. Another local authority insisted that footpaths going through a farmyard barn, which has been in existence since well before footpaths were regulated, should be shown on the definitive map. It is not unlikely, in the modern age, for barns to be converted into housing, with the full agreement of the local planning inspector. Nobody seems to check whether a footpath goes through the old farmyard and thus becomes, potentially, a major inconvenience to the owner of the barn conversion. There is something wrong, somewhere.

It was for these reasons that I moved my amendments in Committee. Because it was a Grand Committee I could not press them, although at the time I was sure I would have been justified in doing so, such was the support from all around the Committee. My noble friend Lord De Mauley was far from keen on my approach and wished to stick to the formula in the Bill—namely, the right for the householder to apply to the local authority and, if necessary, appeal to the Secretary of State. This was backed up by a meeting which he kindly hosted shortly after Christmas, to which my noble friend Lady Byford has already referred. At that meeting, it was explained that the scheme in the Bill would take time to bed down among local authorities and the rank and file green lobby. The department wanted time for this to happen, for the curious reason that the consultation on the agreement of the footpaths working group had not gone wide enough. One rather wonders why the working group existed in the first place, but it did and it agreed changes to the Bill which the Government have been so reluctant to approve that they just have not done it.

I hope that I am not taking my noble friend Lady Byford’s name in vain when I say that both she and I are suspicious as to whether the scheme in the Bill, backed up by guidance to local authorities, simply will not work, however thorough the consultation is. Amendment 7, to which I have put my name, asks, as my noble friend said, for the department to produce a report on whether the scheme has actually worked or not after two years. I have to say that I consider the amendment to be very mild, even though it presumes that legislation will follow if the report is negative, although it does not say so. That, of course, means primary legislation, and it will be some time before that becomes law, even if it gets approval from the business managers.

Amendment 12 allows the Secretary of State a fall-back position, whereby, if the proposals in the Bill are not followed by local authorities, the Secretary of State can lay regulations to make rules according to which a local authority shall make decisions regarding the scheme. This will have two distinct advantages. First, it will reduce the number of appeals, which are likely to be much higher than the department currently envisages, because I suspect that most aggrieved applicants will appeal against the local authority decision on the basis that the latter has not followed the guidance. At the same time, it will cut out vexatious appeals because everyone will know what the rules are. In the event that this amendment finds favour with your Lordships, it would be necessary to have a further one at Third Reading specifying that the regulations will be by affirmative instrument.

Returning to my basic point, it is quite wrong for footpaths to oppress home owners by taking away the enjoyment of their close property and, to that extent, the Bill, imperfect as it is, may help.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, I spoke in Committee in support of the amendments in the name of my noble friend and I will do so again today.

I have three points. First, if you have a public right of way through your garden, you have lost your security, safety and privacy. Anyone can walk through your garden at any time of day or night. Their dogs may run loose, frightening your children, fouling your garden, chasing your pets and even killing your chickens or cats, but there is little or nothing you can do about it. You may be subject to theft or vandalism. Secondly, it costs several thousand pounds to divert a path, but it costs absolutely nothing to object to it. This increases the cost to the applicant dramatically, often beyond their reach. We should be trying to make it easier for the applicant. Thirdly, as my noble friend Lady Byford mentioned, the law as it currently stands does not allow home owners to apply for permission for gates or stiles. Without these, you cannot allow your pets to be left, or allow your children to play, unattended in your garden. This needs changing.

My honourable friend Tom Brake, speaking for the Government at Third Reading of this Bill, said:

“The Government acknowledge that for householders, farmers and others, an intrusive footpath can have a substantial impact on their quality of life or on their ability to run a business. We understand that while this is not a widespread problem, where it occurs it can cause severe difficulties, and in a significant number of cases people have been put through years of considerable inconvenience and stress”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/6/14; col. 77.]

I could not agree more. I understand that, when the Bill was going through the other place, the Government were going to propose an amendment to rectify this but for some reason they did not. This House has a perfect opportunity to put that right.

My noble friend Lady Byford has also mentioned the concern that there is no presumption that the paths will be diverted away from gardens, houses and businesses. There should be. The Government say that there is guidance on this, but it is only guidance. Some councils comply with it, but too many do not. The answer is for the Government to put something in the Bill, and I hope that my noble friend will.

Deregulation Bill

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 28th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, I support these amendments but first I must declare an interest as a farmer and landowner, as an ex-chairman of the Countryside Agency and as an ex-president of the CLA. I really rose to support Amendments 17 and 18, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. Both amendments seem to bring forward consistency and clarity; certainly, Amendment 17 does that while Amendment 18 creates greater flexibility and less red tape. I endorse the question that the noble Baroness put to the Minister as both these amendments were agreed by the stakeholder working group. The reason, as enunciated by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, is that we have fairly limited reform of the rights of way legislation in Clauses 21 to 27 because those were the only agreed reforms put forward by the stakeholder working group. However, these two amendments were also agreed. Why has Amendment 17 been rejected altogether, when it seems to be very consistent with a deregulatory Bill to bring consistency across the country?

Frankly, Amendment 18 has been gralloched—a good expression meaning to remove the guts of something, in this case the amendment put forward by the stakeholder working group. It has been limited to applying only to byways open to all traffic. The other reasons for erecting gates, which are well enunciated in proposed new subsection (2) of the amendment, seem perfectly reasonable and appropriate. As I say, they have been agreed by the stakeholder working group.

On the amendments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, I am on the side here of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker: I agree with their principles but they are a step too far. They ought to be thrown back to the new, reformed stakeholder working group for it to look at carefully and see where it can agree amendments about diversions or closures—preferably not closures but certainly diversions—so that they would be easier to make around domestic premises. That would be a very good idea.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, I support these amendments, particularly the ones in the name of my noble friend Lady Byford. I do so because they go a little further than those of my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale, which would include only gardens and driveways. My noble friend Lady Byford’s amendments also reflect the recommendations of the stakeholder working party on this subject, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron.

Although the Government have issued guidance they have put nothing in the Bill, which I find odd. My honourable friend Tom Brake, speaking for the Government at Third Reading in the other place on 23 June, said:

“It is clear, however, that there has to be a change in the way in which both legislation and policy operate if people are to get a satisfactory hearing, and that is what the Government are doing in the Bill”.

He goes on to say that it,

“will be supplemented by guidance that will effectively act as a presumption to divert or extinguish public rights of way that pass through the gardens of family homes, working farmyards or commercial premises where privacy, safety or security are a problem”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/6/14; cols. 77-78.]

Unfortunately, that is not what the Government are doing in the Bill because they have not put anything in it on this subject.

We have the guidance but we do not have the legislation, which is what my honourable friend said was needed. Guidance is only guidance; it is not obligatory. We need legislation in this Bill. I am sure that this omission by the Government may be an oversight so I hope that the Minister will accept my noble friend Lady Byford’s amendments, which reflect the working party’s recommendations. If the Minister cannot accept them today, I hope that he will agree to take them away and consider them further.

Water Bill

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Monday 31st March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, in moving government Amendment 88A, I wish to speak also to the rest of the government amendments in the group.

This group of amendments includes the government response to the Delegated Powers Committee on the flood insurance clauses. There are also a few minor changes, including some further transitional measures, to improve the Bill.

The first set of these amendments—Amendment 88D and Amendments 90C to 90G—is in response to the Delegated Powers Committee’s recommendations on the flood insurance measures. The Government take these points very seriously and have tabled amendments to take them into account. This includes using the affirmative resolution procedure for all regulations and placing some of the definitions in the Bill. Following the committee’s report on the amendments, we nevertheless take the view that Clauses 58 and 61 should remain affirmative on the first exercise only. The amendments also provide for some of the definitions to be amended by regulations.

We agree with the committee that the definitions are important and we take its point about defining them in the Bill. However, we remain of the view that the definitions of “flood”, “household premises” and “relevant insurer” are best set out in regulations, which are more flexible, should we need to change them over the lifetime of the measures. We hope that, by defining these terms in regulations that will be subject to the affirmative procedure, we have reassured noble Lords of our intention that Parliament is able to scrutinise these definitions fully in due course.

We thank the committee for recommending that the powers to share information on council tax data are subject to the affirmative procedure. However, to meet the commitment to establish Flood Re in 2015, we need to release the information immediately after Royal Assent, and have therefore decided to address the committee’s concerns by placing the powers in the Bill to ensure that Parliament can scrutinise them now. We hope that noble Lords understand the rationale for this, due to the challenging timetable to deliver Flood Re.

Although Amendments 90CA to 90CD provide for rather than mandate the release of council tax data in the Bill, I should make it clear that the Government are committed to doing so, and to do so swiftly following Royal Assent.

Insurers will be required to have in place appropriate but proportionate security measures for the protection of the data disclosed pursuant to this clause. As much of the data to be disclosed at this stage are already in the public domain, it has been agreed that the controls are sufficiently robust for additional criminal sanctions not to be required. However, the amendment also allows for the application of a criminal sanction at a later stage, should the Government need to regulate for the release of additional information. It is right that we have the powers to protect the release of further information in future, but the criminal sanction is not automatic and we will consider whether one is necessary, following consultation.

On Amendment 90A on Flood Re’s reserves, we have previously discussed amendments to the rules surrounding the scheme’s reserves, and will come on to discuss reserves later in this debate. Having consulted further, and to ensure that this power in Clause 53 cannot compromise the sound operation of Flood Re and its orderly management, we are tabling this small change to make clear that the scheme administrator’s consent is sought before making regulations in this area. This consent means that the scheme administrator is able to object to any prudentially unsound proposals, as well as to make representations as to the retention of some or all of the reserve. Consequently, there is no longer a need for a requirement to consult the Prudential Regulation Authority as well. I reassure noble Lords that both the Prudential Regulation Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority will continue to be closely consulted on this and all other regulations made in relation to the Flood Re scheme.

Amendment 88B covers the eligibility threshold and is intended to ensure that the legislation properly reflects the operation of the Flood Re scheme, and the way the insurance industry operates.

Amendment 90T addresses the risk that secondary legislation made at the end of the life of Flood Re could be seen as hybrid. We have every intention of carrying out a full consultation before making that secondary legislation to ensure that any private interests are properly considered.

Amendment 90L is intended to ensure that employment contracts within the scheme are transferrable, where they otherwise might not be. I reassure noble Lords that this amendment is not intended to enable the transfer of reserves required to be retained for prudential regulatory purposes.

In addition, the Government have also tabled a small set of minor and technical amendments to the Bill. We have also corrected an error in Schedule 3 to the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 to ensure that unused bond funds, called in by a SuDS approving body, can be returned to the right person.

Finally, Amendments 91B to 91D provide the Secretary of State with powers to introduce provisions to allow Ofwat to revoke existing water supply licences as part of the transition to the new water supply licensing regime. The power provides flexibility for Ofwat to allow existing licences to continue until new licences are available or until they are revoked on a specified day.

Amendment 91B enables the licence modification powers to work in such circumstances. The order can provide for more detailed arrangements to be set out in a scheme produced by Ofwat, subject to the requirements of the Secretary of State’s order. The order also provides for compensation to be payable to the holders of revoked licences. The measure of compensation may depend on various factors, including, for example, whether the licence holder qualifies to hold a new licence in the reformed water supply market.

The amendments also make transitional provisions for existing sewerage arrangements with incumbents that become licensable arrangements under the new sewerage licence. Compensation is payable if it is no longer possible for some sewerage arrangements to continue because a licence is required. Again, the qualification of the operator for a licence would be a relevant factor. Amendment 91C corrects a small error in paragraph 6 of the schedule. I hope that noble Lords will be happy to support these amendments.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, this is the first time that I have spoken on this Bill on Report, so I should declare that I live in a band H property on my farm in Norfolk, I have a bore hole and I have spent about 30 years working and underwriting in the insurance industry. I am happy with these government amendments, but will the Minister clarify government Amendment 90L to Clause 70? I am afraid that I did not quite catch the Minister’s assurance about capital, so I am asking her to say it again, please. The current wording is far from ideal, in that it could potentially raise the possibility that Ministers could access Flood Re’s funds when the scheme is wound up, irrespective of their being needed for, for example, meeting regulatory run-off requirements.

I understand that Defra has said that an override to access Flood Re reserves is not the intention of the amendment to Clause 70. However, the concern is that in 20 or 25 years it could easily be interpreted as an opportunity to grab funds from Flood Re. Will the Minister make clear that the amendment is not intended to apply to Flood Re’s reserves or capital? That would be most useful.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, I shall make a short contribution on this amendment. Noble Lords will remember that at Second Reading I made the point that there was no equivalent to a Cambridge Econometrics study into the numbers that lie behind this. For that reason alone, there is some merit in this amendment to look at the hard science so that we get away from what has been described to me, by somebody who will remain nameless, as voodoo numbers that have been floating around. The absence of the degree of expertise that is regularly produced by the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, has needlessly increased doubts and concerns that might otherwise not have been there. Therefore, this is quite a good idea, although I am less clear whether I shall follow the noble Lord if he decides to divide the House on this issue.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, when a similar amendment was debated in Committee, I took it to be only a probing amendment. Now it has been tabled again today, I am bemused, or perhaps confused, about what the Committee on Climate Change can add to the work already being done. The insurance industry, together with the Government and their agencies, has already assessed the number of properties in known flood-risk areas, particularly the number of properties that might struggle to afford flood insurance in the open market. They have also assessed the level of premiums required by council tax band, and the contribution needed from every householder—£10.50—to ensure that Flood Re has sufficient funds net of reinsurance costs from year 1.

I have no doubt that Flood Re will continually assess and reassess its assumptions, but in any event a five-year review is built into the scheme to assess whether its assumptions still hold true. This five-year review will allow Flood Re, with the agreement of the Government, to make adjustments to the levies and contributions accordingly, and I am quite sure that different areas of flood risk will be added to the pot.

I cannot understand why the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, is moving this amendment, which will require the Committee on Climate Change to duplicate the work already done by Flood Re and by the Government and their agencies. Where will the Committee on Climate Change get its information from? The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, says that the committee does some work in this area, but it would need access to data from Flood Re, the insurance industry and the Government and their agencies, such as the Environment Agency. I do not believe that getting the Committee on Climate Change involved will add anything but will be double-handling, expensive and unnecessary.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his amendment, which would give a formal advisory role to the Committee on Climate Change. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, for his offer of help. I absolutely agree with them on the importance of having impartial advice on the latest science, and we of course look to the committee to inform the debate on climate change.

It might be appropriate at this stage to say that I welcome the latest report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is a valuable addition to the international understanding of climate change impacts and which underlines the need to adapt to changing global weather patterns. Adapting sooner will reduce the future costs of doing so. I should emphasise that, although the IPCC report did not focus on individual countries, it did identify three key risks from climate change for Europe, of which flooding was one and water security another. These findings align well with the United Kingdom’s own Climate Change Risk Assessment, published in 2012, which identified that the biggest challenges that the United Kingdom faces will be flooding and water shortage.

As I explained in Committee, I am not clear what the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, thinks could be gained by requiring the Committee on Climate Change to assess the data provided by insurers, which will be primarily on the pricing of risk, based on the industry’s own sophisticated catastrophe modelling. The numbers of policies eligible for Flood Re will be based solely on the cost of the flood risk component of any policy, which is set by the insurers based on their assessment of the risk. This assessment will change over time and it would not be possible for the committee to provide any estimates without detailed knowledge of industry pricing models. Similarly, the value of the levy and the likelihood of any additional contribution by insurers is based on a number of financial parameters, such as the cost of reinsurance and the amount of levy collected, which will change year on year.

Given their extensive knowledge of the flood risk profile down to the local level, the Environment Agency and its equivalents in the devolved Administrations are the key advisers to government on flood risk and changing levels of risk over time. In England, the Environment Agency leads a dedicated climate-ready support service, conducts the long-term assessment of future investment needs and provides the national assessment of flood risk and flood mapping, which takes account of all types of risk.

If I understand the intention of the amendment correctly, the nub of the concern seems to be that the modelling used to assess the size of the Flood Re pool and the numbers supported needs to be robust and take into account changing risk. Flood Re’s finances also need to be resilient to the inherent variability of annual flood claims and to factor in changing risk over time. The core of this is making sure that Flood Re holds enough capital to be able to cover claims up to the limit of its liabilities. Under European Solvency II legislation, which governs the insurance sector and will be in force from 1 January 2016, all insurance firms will be required to hold enough capital to cover a one-in-200-year level of claims. Therefore, Flood Re will be required under EU law to hold capital reserves at a level equivalent to its liability.

To assess what level of capital is needed, insurers have detailed catastrophe models. The modelling to assess such events must be kept up to date and will reflect any changes in levels of insured risk. This will include changes as a result of climate change. As an authorised reinsurer operating under the requirements of Solvency II, Flood Re will be bound by these same requirements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on his use of De Mauley Street. I think it was clear what he was saying. It seems to me that if you have a property to let, as landlord you should buy the insurance. It might not just be the bog standard property and contents insurance that you buy: you will probably also buy owners’ liability insurance, public liability insurance and any other commercial insurance that you might buy as a landlord. That is one reason why they are excluded from Flood Re, because we are not talking like for like. The owner occupier in No. 2 De Mauley Street, for instance, will buy their own bog standard property and contents insurance. As a landlord you buy other things as well, which makes it a commercial risk.

I too read somewhere that to qualify for Flood Re, you had to live in the property. Therefore, I come to the amendment spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, regarding which he said that 78% have one property, which they let. If the occupier has to buy the insurance, why does not the landlord get the occupier to buy the property and contents insurance, which would qualify it for Flood Re? If the landlord then wanted to buy his public liability or owners’ liability insurance, he could buy it as a separate policy. That might be one way in which a number of these cases can get into Flood Re.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

I understand what the noble Lord is saying but the problem is that the tenant does not have an insurable interest. He cannot insure the property. No insurance company would accept his insurance of a property in which he is only a tenant.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I am taken a bit by surprise by this amendment. I had not intended to speak at all but as the noble Lord was developing his arguments I began to realise what the value of this could be. I have a letter here from Keswick Flood Action Group which I referred to in Committee. It makes recommendations on the question of the reinstatement of homes and resilience. I want to read on to the record what it says because most of my contributions on this Bill up to now, certainly in Committee, have drawn on information that has been brought to me by people who have been flooded, because very often they know more than anyone else. Lynne Jones, chair of Keswick Flood Action Group, says that the Government should,

“pass legislation so that insurance companies are required to reinstate homes in a flood resilient/resistant way. Insurance companies, quite rightly, will not pay for ‘betterment’ but these days they have to reinstate with insulation to regulatory standards, even if no insulation was present before, because they are required to do so by law. So why can’t flood measures be treated in the same way?”.

She goes on to make a very simple proposition which, when I think of the flooded properties that I surveyed when I was an MP, seems to me quite logical:

“For example dropping the electrics down from the first floor so raised sockets rather than rewiring from ground up; replacing wood floors with solid waterproof concrete etc”.

Then she goes on to suggest that the Government,

“provide people with independent advice on property reinstatement, maybe via Local Authorities’ Buildings Regulations Officers”.

If there is a surplus, why not consider spending some of it in this sort of area? She goes on to say:

“What people need is knowledgeable counsel from somebody who isn’t going to profit from the works. Flood victims are the target for every rogue trader under the sun post-flood and not everyone knows what products are available/would most suit their needs. Such decisions come at a time when they are exhausted, stressed and suffering financial hardship, they are truly at their most vulnerable”.

As I said, when I was an MP and also afterwards I visited homes where people had been flooded and we know there is tremendous distress. If there are these surpluses, perhaps we should ask whether they can be deployed as part of the process of advising people so that the rogue traders do not go in and do the work and rip people off. That is a far more professional approach. The simple idea of feeding electric wiring upstairs as against downstairs seems absolutely elementary. I wonder how many properties have been done up with grants from government and bills paid by insurance companies over recent years where those very simple, remedial steps to dealing with problems in particular homes have not been taken.

In many ways I think this is a very interesting amendment. I had not really thought of the surpluses. We do not want to waste money but surely it can be used in such a way as to promote the policy of developing actions for resilience.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, I am afraid I cannot support this amendment. To me it shows a misunderstanding of the role of insurance more generally and of Flood Re in particular, which must build up its funds from premiums to cover current and future losses smoothly. The scheme already has five-yearly reviews so that all assumptions can be reworked and contributions adjusted, either upwards or downwards. Diverting funds into the totally separate adventure of pre-emptive risk mitigation is not a function of insurance and nor should it be for Flood Re. The analogy is asking car insurers to invest in better road signs or road infrastructure. It might help mitigate the risks but it is not the role of the underwriting industry; it is the role of government, national or local.

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Moved by

[Earl Cathcart]

91: After Clause 73, insert the following new Clause—
“Internal drainage boards: apportionment of drainage expenses
(1) The Land Drainage Act 1991 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 37(5) (apportionment of drainage expenses), at end insert—
“(f) in the case of—the Secretary of State may by order define an equivalent measure for valuing the land”.”(i) any land to which none of the paragraphs (a) to (d) applies and it is not possible to calculate a value under paragraph (e)(ii) as the relevant rating lists no longer exist or cannot be located, or(ii) land to which one of paragraphs (a) to (c) does apply but for which the relevant rating lists no longer exist or cannot be located,the Secretary of State may by order define an equivalent measure for valuing the land”.”

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Howard moved this amendment in Committee. Unfortunately, he cannot be here today and has asked me to move it again on his behalf.

As a farmer, I pay land drainage rates and, in a past life, I was a member of a Norfolk internal drainage board. Internal drainage boards get their funding from two sources: from farmers and agricultural landowners, for draining agricultural land—this is the land drainage rate; and from local authorities, for draining developed areas—this is the special levy. IDBs work out the special levy that they charge local authorities based on the value per hectare of the developed land. This is clearly set out in the Land Drainage Act 1991. This amendment does not change this calculation, which is clear, fair and transparent. IDBs need to know the value per hectare of developed land to calculate the special levy. However, the Land Drainage Act 1991 says that IDBs must work out the value per hectare of developed land from lists of rateable values of property compiled in 1990—25 years ago. Using these old lists of rateable values to work out the value per hectare of developed land is neither fair nor transparent as the IDB needs to have the lists. In many cases, the lists no longer exist. In addition, they are out of date and do not include anything built after 1990. As the lists are out of date, the variation of values in them may be wrong as relative property values between areas have changed since1990.

The only way to solve this problem is to change the Land Drainage Act through this amendment to give the Defra Secretary of State the power to set out another way of working out the value per hectare of developed land, so that IDBs do not have to use the old rateable value lists, if they have them.

The amendment is not prescriptive. We do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past by setting the way of working out the value per hectare of developed land in primary legislation. The amendment would rectify that mistake by taking the prescription out of the Land Drainage Act and instead giving discretion to Defra to set a method that is appropriate now, and to change it in the future if circumstances change. This is important as IDBs do vital work not just in protecting people, their homes and businesses and some of our best farm land, but also play a key role in keeping our power stations, ports, roads and railways working.

In addition to their usual maintenance costs, IDBs now face heavy bills to repair and rebuild defences, drainage ditches and pumping stations after the ravages of this winter, with its record rainfall and the biggest tidal surge in 60 years. Unless IDBs have a fair way of valuing developed land, they cannot set a fair special levy on local authorities, so they cannot raise the funds they need to do their vital work. This amendment will ensure that IDBs can get the funds to do their vital work, while also sorting out past mistakes by replacing prescriptive and out-of-date legislation with a simple discretionary power.

After my noble friend Lord Howard brought forward this amendment in Committee, my noble friend Lord De Mauley wrote to all 120-odd IDBs to ask whether this was a concern for them. When I met my noble friend Lord De Mauley and his officials last week, he said he could not conclude that it was an overwhelming concern as he had had only six responses from the IDBs. I do not know the timescale between the letter being sent out and our meeting, but I do not think it was that long. I do not know what the latest position is with regard to responses from the IDBs, but I do know that the Association of Drainage Authorities has written supporting the amendment. The CLA and the NFU have also written supporting the amendment.

The letter from the NFU adds another point that I have not raised yet. It states:

“The NFU … considers that there is a need for this change both for existing IDBs but also to enable the creation of new IDBs in areas where they don’t currently exist, we would therefore urge support of this amendment”.

It goes on:

“Such an amendment is especially important for areas where the Environment Agency is considering to withdraw from maintaining significant drainage assets. It is our view that in areas such as on the Pevensey Levels in East Sussex or within the Alt Crossens catchment in West Lancashire, to name but two, there is a strong need for IDBs to be established in order that existing water level management activity may continue and that the cost of that activity is shared equitably between the beneficiaries”.

I hope my noble friend will accept this amendment. Being more realistic, I hope that he does not reject it today, but rather agrees to take it away and look at it between now and Third Reading. If he then agrees that there is a hole that needs plugging, he can either accept the amendment or come back with his own. I beg to move.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, during our debates in Committee, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, seemed purely a matter of practicality. The noble Earl should be congratulated on finding this shortfall in the relevant documents. The Minister wished to reserve the Government’s position pending further evidence. I merely rise to ask the Minister whether the position could be addressed by secondary legislation. That would allow Parliament to keep a watch on the situation and assess when and if it develops.

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I therefore urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment. Following our continuing investigations with ADA, we would be happy to write to him and to my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising, who tabled an amendment in Committee, and notify them of the outcome and any course of action to be taken.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for picking up the baton on this. From what she said, I can see this is not an easy one to take forward, but there seems to be a concern with some of the IDBs and I thank her for continuing to talk to ADA to see what the best course of action is. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 91 withdrawn.

Water Bill

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. As will be apparent, the amendments that I will bring forward shortly are in the same vein. They reflect the points I made in a letter to the Secretary of State on 22 November 2013, in which I said:

“The Flood Re scheme offers the opportunity to strengthen incentives for the uptake of household flood protection measures but it is currently not designed to do this. The consequence is that Flood Re costs will be higher than they need to be, at the expense of householders funding the programme through the industry levy”.

I declare an interest as the chairman of the adaptation sub-committee of the Committee on Climate Change.

As this discussion has made clear, there is a real opportunity here and this is a helpful and supportive proposal. I will shortly describe my amendment, which would redesign Flood Re to help it, as has been said, to do two things: to provide cover for householders at risk and, at the same time, help to reduce those risks over the years ahead, so that when Flood Re comes to an end householders do not drop off a cliff after 25 years.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, I am very nervous about these amendments, probing as they are. Flood Re has one aim: to provide flood insurance for those people who cannot buy it at the moment. The first year or two will be very difficult until it has built up its reserves, provided that there are not too many claims in those early years. However, I am very nervous about the suggestion that Flood Re ought to spend money on flood-resilient activities. What happens in 10 years’ time if we have another horrendous year of rain—floods all over the place—and these households go to Flood Re and say, “I’ve now got a claim, will you pay it?”. What happens if Flood Re replies, “I’m so sorry, I have paid it all out on building a dam here and there”? I do not think it is the right answer to get Flood Re to pay money out other than for genuine flood claims.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I have a great interest in this group of amendments. I certainly understand the geometry that lies behind it, particularly that outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I probably follow the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, in this. As I understand it, Flood Re will have significant start-up costs. Also, the Environment Agency’s investigation and collation of information from the hazard risk assessments, which it is charged with carrying out, will be a draw-down on the Flood Re fund. That means that, in the early years, there may be significant sums taken out of the pot. I understand that the intention is that the Government should put in plan B configurations to deal with that eventuality. However, given the sporadic and capricious nature of severe flooding, we do not have any time to waste in putting measures together to improve resilience and protect properties where they can be protected.

I have a technical interest in this: I am a practising chartered surveyor and property valuer. I am also involved in the parish and town council sector, as is well known. I can see the rationale behind an early start for communities and individual property owners coming together to create robust schemes. We need to do that as soon as the present flood waters have died down, as I hope they will. Time is of the essence, because we do not know when the next flood will come. There is a conundrum between the build up of the pot of Flood Re on the one hand and spending funds on resilience and protection on the other. In a later group of amendments, I will say a bit more about Flood Re, which is intended to cover a very limited and narrow range of circumstances. I will explain why I think a larger problem of an entirely different magnitude is lurking here.

We need to make a start. On the basis that the economy is improving, this is exactly the time when these investments need to be made. I will be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say about the pot, how it will be funded and how we get the early years’ work put in place. Like the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, I obviously would not want to see the pot devoted to one large project to the exclusion of all others. I am sure that would not be the case. If we do not get this right, the credibility of FR is likely to falter. I think that is something on which the Minister can elaborate.

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[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I speak to Amendments 161B and 161C in this group. Although welcoming the introduction of Flood Re and accepting that it is essentially a scheme for domestic premises, I remain concerned about the exclusion of small businesses, especially in very rural areas. I refer specifically to those which are mixed hereditaments. The key question appears to be: what happens to mixed hereditaments in terms of qualifying for inclusion in Flood Re?

There are two scenarios for mixed hereditaments. The first is where the business element is deemed by the valuation to be de minimis. This means it forms such a small part of the overall hereditament that it appears only in a domestic list for council tax. The second is where the business element is more significant, and is therefore liable to both council tax and business rates. If the property does not appear in the waiting list for business rates as well as for council tax, the liable party may qualify for business rate relief. This could be small business rate relief, where it is their only business premises.

I understand that, currently, if the rateable value is less than £6,000 the relief received would be 100%. Rateable values between £6,000 and £12,000 receive relief on a sliding scale. This enhanced small business rate relief scheme has been extended until 31 March 2015, and not beyond that at the moment. The standard scheme allows a relief of 50%. In a rural settlement it might be the case that a village shop or post office is part of a mixed hereditament. In this case it would qualify for rural rate relief. Also, in a rural settlement, a pub with living accommodation above could qualify for rural rate relief on the pub element.

I am extremely concerned about excluding mixed hereditaments from access to Flood Re. This could have a dramatic impact, not just on the business owner but on those residents who use the business. If that business cannot get flood insurance it may remain unviable and may be forced to close prematurely if flooded. Where, for example, this is the last shop or post office in the village this could have a significant impact on the villagers.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friends Lord Moynihan and Lady Parminter on tabling Amendment 155, as it has given us a good chance to debate flood insurance for businesses, whether in Flood Re or in another mutual set up specifically. We are all under pressure to include small businesses under the Flood Re scheme. That is quite understandable. If I had a business in a flood risk area, I would want to insure it under the Flood Re scheme. I know that the Association of British Insurers and the Government looked at whether businesses could be included within the Flood Re scheme, but found that it threw up more problems than it solved. This is best illustrated with an example.

I am a free range egg producer on my farm in Norfolk, and when it came to buying insurance for the business, I was presented with a long shopping list of types of cover relevant to my business: property; business interruption; loss of profits; contractors “all risks”; terrorism and malicious attack; livestock, including theft, worrying, death after straying, accidental or malicious death; deterioration of stock, in my case probably due to bad feed or electrical failure; perils and fatal injury; livestock in transit; disease, in my case probably something like bird flu or salmonella; goods in transit; motor, for lorries, trucks, vans or cars; employers’ liability; public liability; product liability or environmental liability; legal and professional expenses.

The list goes on, but I hope that gives your Lordships a flavour of the range of commercial insurance on offer. I, of course, had to cherry pick the cover that was most relevant to me. For instance, I did not buy livestock or goods in transit cover, because this is the responsibility of third parties with whom I have a contract. Also, I have no vehicles in that business, so motor insurance was not an issue. However, salmonella is an issue for my business, but because the insurance is so costly I chose not buy it. I hope that I got that one right. I have to choose not only the type of cover that I think is appropriate to my business but how much cover to buy for each category, the cost and the level of excess necessary to reduce that cost. The excess across my shopping list varies from £100 to £20,000.

Although there are hundreds of egg producers up and down the country with identical businesses to mine, I very much doubt that there is another that has commercial insurance exactly the same as mine. They will all be different, and that is the problem: all businesses, whether a corner shop, a pub, a guest house, a property investment company, a hotel or guest house, a manufacturing company or an engineering firm, will buy commercial insurance to suit their particular circumstances. The whole point of a mutual, whether Flood Re or one geared specifically to small businesses, is that the conditions are common to all. The price, the excess, the cover and the conditions must be standardised. This can be done for homeowner insurance—it is pretty bog-standard—but sadly, as I have tried to illustrate, not for commercial insurance. You just cannot standardise it. If it were standardised, virtually all commercial members of that mutual would end up with a policy that did not give them the cover that they wanted.

It would be good if everything could be included in Flood Re, whether owner-occupied houses, rented homes or small businesses, but the line must be drawn somewhere. It has been agreed that those with homeowner insurance, buildings and contents, will be included and that commercial insurance will not be. If I had a property in a flood-risk zone that was deemed to have commercial insurance with it and was therefore excluded from the mutual, I would ask my broker to split my insurance cover into two separate policies: one for the bog-standard homeowner cover, buildings and contents, to ensure inclusion within the Flood Re scheme, and the other to include all elements that made my cover commercial, such as owner’s liability or public liability cover. That might be a way forward for many of those finding themselves excluded from the Flood Re scheme because of the commercial element of their policy.

Flood Re will help up to 500,000 homeowners who cannot currently buy flood cover, but I am sure that with a little bit of inventiveness, many, although I am afraid not all, small businesses, including buy-to-let and leasehold properties, can buy their insurance in such a way as to be included in the scheme.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, my noble friend and I have two amendments in this rather complicated group. The group as a whole is beginning to get us into the area of who should be in and who is out of Flood Re, and we have some groups of amendments later that touch on the same issue. Before the Bill leaves this House, we must be clear who is in, who is out, and why.

My Amendment 160 would require the Secretary of State to report on the numbers of properties in flood-risk areas that were eligible, and those that were not, for inclusion in Flood Re. It would include looking at the specific exclusion as it stands of council tax band H and post-2009 new build. The report would look at how much it would cost to bring them in and who would bear the cost if they were brought into Flood Re, in terms of both premiums and the effect on the non-risky properties’ cross-subsidy.

We all have some sympathy with those groups that are excluded. However, we must be careful, as this is a delicate arithmetic deal between the Government and the ABI. I understand that negotiations were hard and long. As far as businesses are concerned, it is obvious that this must be addressed somehow. We have all seen the effects of flooding in recent weeks and the past few years, on small businesses and farms, on the Cockermouth high street a year ago and on the seafronts at Dawlish and Aberystwyth in recent weeks. We also know that the businesses that are hit—the shops, boarding houses and small businesses—are key to the prosperity of those local economies. It must be frustrating for small businesses, and those advocating their case, like the federation, because they were covered in some way under the statement of principles under the old scheme. However, the old scheme was a different sort of scheme. It was a deal struck by the ABI, agreeing that it would continue to cover—even then, it was not offering new cover—small businesses as well as households if the Government committed themselves to a certain level of expenditure on flood defence.

This is a different sort of deal; it is actuarially based. While we have all received representations on behalf of businesses, the approach now has a different basis. Even so, it is complicated. Some micro-businesses operated out of the owner’s house could be covered because they pay council tax rather than business tax. However, others will not. There are good reasons for this. The noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, described the bespoke way in which businesses negotiate their insurance as distinct from the more generalised way in which households are covered. It is difficult to see how businesses could be included in Flood Re as it stands without serious reconfiguration of the whole arithmetic. Therefore, while I have sympathy, I would not go so far as to press the Government on this front. However, I am in favour of knowing more about this. Therefore I support the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, that we look at this and report on it and see whether that might lead us to some other form of provision in parallel with Flood Re.

Some of the other boundary issues are even more complicated, particularly in relation to leasehold properties and the issue of whether landlords and tenants are included. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has dealt with one element of this and others are dealt with later on. Some of the government literature refers to leasehold properties. However, in general, the ABI and the Government do not think that leasehold properties are included. The situation with single landlords and tenants is not clear, although commercial providers of leasehold property are not included. The differentiation here is more the nature of the insurance than the nature of the property. While the property may be defined as being in risk or not, in a landlord/tenant situation, the tenant probably takes out the contents insurance, which is covered, whereas building insurance, which is the landlord’s responsibility, is not covered. That is quite a complex position, and it would also be true for multiple leasehold property. A future mortgage on such property is dependent to some extent, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, on there being ongoing insurance on the property. Leaseholders and the owners of the property may be faced with a double whammy if they are not careful.

As I said, I am not in favour of widening the group at this time because of the delicate arithmetic involved. We must address some of these issues in the Bill but for the moment I cannot support the amendments proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, nor the proposals of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, on mixed hereditaments. I am not sure whether Amendment 160A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, which would effectively delete the exclusion of post-2009 properties, is in this group. That is in a rather different category because people have been building in high-risk areas when they have known that they were going to be excluded under the old agreement, let alone the new one. I therefore have less sympathy for that group than I might have for the others.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 160A. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, but I shall speak to the amendment as it is written. The Flood Re scheme should be eligible for all houses built and occupied before its introduction.

We live in a blame society. Even now, the media are trying to pin the blame for the current flooding on someone. Is the worst rainfall for 200 or 300 years the fault of the Government, the Environment Agency or local government? It must be somebody’s fault.

With Amendment 160A, we are debating whether houses built after 1 January 2009 should be included in the Flood Re scheme. As was said earlier, PPS25 has made it quite clear that development should not take place in flood risk areas, and yet we all know that it still goes on. One has to ask why. Who is responsible for the houses built on flood risk areas when the rules are quite clear? Everyone is trying to pass the blame on to someone else—“It’s not my fault, guv”. Who is at fault? Is it the Government for not ensuring stricter adherence to PPS25? Is it the Environment Agency? That may be the case. Although 97% of applications that it objects to are refused, it looks at only 6.6% of the 450,000 applications, which is quite clearly not enough.

Is it the fault of local government planners? That is probably the case. One has to ask why they continue to pass applications on flood risk areas contrary to PPS25. Is it the fault of the owner for buying a home built after 1 January 2009 on a flood risk area? It probably is. Caveat emptor, or let the buyer beware: he should have known. If he did not, is it the fault of his conveyance lawyer when carrying out the searches? It raises the question of whether lawyers should be required, as a matter of course, to inform buyers if the house is on a flood risk area and, in this case, when it was built.

One can lay the blame on homes being built on flood-prone areas on any or all of the above but, as sure as eggs are eggs, it is not the fault of the insurance industry. Why should insurers pick up the tab? They have been quite clear on this. Indeed, they are the only ones who have drawn a line by saying that, if a home is built in a flood risk zone after 1 January 2009, under the statement of principles, flood cover will not be available and the property will not be eligible for the Flood Re scheme. Underwriters were quite clear that they did not want to encourage unwise and irresponsible development. Why should underwriters or contributors to the scheme pay for other people’s stupidity? The Government must decide whether PPS25 is to be adhered to or not.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, there is an element of confusion both outside and inside this House as to where the words which define the exclusion of leaseholders are to be found. I understand that Defra put out a notice in which it excluded leaseholders, but can the Minister tell us where this provision is made? The public are confused. The assumption when anyone reads this Bill that freeholders are included will be interpreted by flat-owners who have purchased their freehold but manage their blocks through leasehold companies—companies which have been established to manage the freehold, owned by the residents who have 999-year leases—to mean that they are also included. They will assume that because they are freeholders they are included. My understanding from my reading, although, as I say, I have not found the authoritative piece of literature, is that they are not included. In other words, people out there who believe they are included—freeholders of blocks of flats; not corporate interests but individual share-of-freehold owners—will think that they are included when they are not. That needs to be sorted out.

I cannot understand why they are excluded. Indeed, I would argue that they are probably less of a risk to insurance companies, even though they may well live in buildings on flood plains, because very often you find blocks of flats where no one is living on the bottom floor at all and the first flat in the block is on the first floor, above the area at risk of being flooded. If I am correct in what I am saying, will the Minister tell us why share-of-freehold owners in blocks of flats are being excluded when, in fact, they are freeholders and when, as I say, people reading the Bill will presume that they are included?