Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Report: 3rd sitting Hansard: House of Lords
Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes an excellent point, which I shall come to in a moment.

The third claim is that the Leveson system is unnecessary, as the new IPSO is much better than the previous Press Complaints Commission. I dealt with this in Committee by identifying some, but not all, of IPSO’s deficiencies. These are, first, that IPSO is not obliged to consider discrimination complaints from a group—for instance, a religious or ethnic group. It has also not yet dealt with a matter so serious as to merit levying even a £10 fine. Finally, in three years of operation, IPSO has not arbitrated a single case. In Committee, I was not challenged on any of those assertions, and I am not surprised, because they were checked very carefully.

I hope that noble Lords will support me in the Division Lobby in order that the House of Commons is given the opportunity to provide the vital costs-shifting protection that the public need and deserve in respect of data protection claims. Of course, this would also send a clear message to the Government that they should bring into force the rest of Section 40 immediately, as Parliament agreed to and voted for in 2013.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD)]

Is the noble Earl aware that there are some, including myself, who believe that Section 40 is unlawful and contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights, since it imposes a burden on a newspaper to pay the costs of proceedings even if it is successful, and is discriminatory and arbitrary?

[Earl Attlee]

There is a simple answer to that—the noble Lord should test that in the courts and test it in Europe.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I am not here on behalf of IPSO; I am not counsel for IPSO. I have simply tried to explain historically why we are where we are and the arguments the press made in the past that I was party to at the time, as was the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. If there are points to be made about the way in which IPSO works, no doubt they will be made by Members of the House. I stand corrected by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, who reminds me that it was not only celebrities who were abused, which is completely true.

What I am trying to say is that no democracy in the world has a system of press regulation that has been formulated post Leveson. It is objectionable to our national and regional newspapers. They will not change and suddenly agree to a different system because of anything which your Lordships say or do. It is a free press and the sensible thing to do is to make the system work. I believe that under Sir Alan Moses it is working, but if it is not working sufficiently, I am sure that they would be interested in any suggestions. It is hopeless if your Lordships believe that you can bully them into giving up their self-regulation in favour of the statutory system which they reject.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord has been very helpful to the Committee. He told us what the disadvantages would be for a media operator if they were not signed up to an approved regulator. Can he tell the Committee what the advantages would be for a media operator if they were signed up to an approved regulator?

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I do not understand the question. It depends on which regime we are talking about. Right now, there would be no advantages.

G20 Summit

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, can we hear first from the right reverend Prelate?

Equality Act 2010 (Work on Ships and Hovercraft) Regulations 2011

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Monday 27th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this has been an interesting and, as usual when the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, is involved, well informed debate. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. Gathered here today is a wealth of transport and equal rights experience, and I am grateful for the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that we should solve the immediate problem first of all and then consider the wider issues.

On 2 March 2010, in a debate during the Report stage of the Equality Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made an impassioned plea on behalf of seafarers in respect of both differential pay and the UK national minimum wage. Unfortunately, the noble Lord cannot attend the Committee today due to duties in the Chamber.

In response to that earlier debate, the then government Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said:

“The Government must carefully consider the implications of ending the practice of differential pay”.—[Official Report, 2/3/10; col. 1384.]

This Government have carefully considered the issue and I pay tribute to my colleague in another place, the Maritime Minister. Since taking office, he has demonstrated a hitherto unseen level of determination to address the issue. He has consulted extensively with the shipping industry and with the unions.

As I said in my opening remarks, the Government accept that the regulations on differential pay do not go far enough for some, while for others they go too far. The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, is clearly embedded in the first camp. However, the Government are determined to protect the future of the UK shipping industry and with it the Red Ensign. The regulations that we are considering do the least possible to avoid a substantial fine being imposed by the European court.

The UK national minimum wage for seafarers is also a highly complex area and the Government are very familiar with the concerns expressed by the maritime trade unions. A legal working group that includes these unions was set up to look into how far international and EU law would allow the Government to apply the UK national minimum wage to non-UK ships. The conclusions of the working group will be submitted to Ministers in due course, after which all interested government departments, including the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which is responsible for the national minimum wage policy, will give further consideration to the issue.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for giving me advance notice of what he intended to say. I, too, picked up the “shipbuilding” typo but rapidly translated it into “ship owners”. In reply to the noble Lord, and with all due respect, indirect discrimination is not the issue here. The regulations allow discrimination on grounds of nationality. That is direct discrimination, excused by paragraph 1 of Schedule 23, “General Exceptions”, and by Section 81, which says that Part 5 of the Act applies to seafarers only in such circumstances as are prescribed. These regulations prescribe the circumstances.

I confirm that it will continue to be lawful to pay some seafarers differently because of their nationality if they were recruited outside Great Britain and are not British citizens or nationals of another EEA state or designated state. That will include Filipino seafarers.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I fear that I have not explained my point clearly. Something may be discrimination on grounds of nationality and also direct or indirect race discrimination. It may involve discrimination based on nationality and ethnicity or on national origins, for example—that would be direct discrimination—or it may be indirect discrimination based on nationality, national origins and ethnicity. I will not go through the definitions in the Equality Act to explain what I have just said, but the definition is very large and the case law makes what I have just said crystal clear, whether it applies to “no turbans”, “no Irish” or discrimination using other foreign epithets. It is quite clear from court rulings that discrimination may be ostensibly on one ground but in fact is on others. I do not want to see litigation on this matter because we have not dealt properly with it.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I fully understand my noble friend's desire to avoid litigation. These extremely complex issues are well beyond my understanding, but I will give the noble Lord a detailed response in writing. My noble friend’s argument is an essentially legal one and I hope that the Committee will forgive me if I write to him.

There remains the question of whether it is immoral to allow differential pay in any circumstances. That is a rather simpler question to answer. The short answer is no. The world is not that simple. That is why, traditionally, seafarers from around the globe have tended to be paid amounts commensurate with the domestic job market in their own countries. If seafarers from countries with generally low-paid workforces were paid at higher rates, this could seriously distort the job market in their own country. Imagine, for example, a situation in which highly skilled surgeons or other professionals find themselves better off serving as ratings on ships than using all their training, skills and knowledge to help to cure people and solve their problems. This would be damaging at a far deeper level, and I suspect that there could be other serious unintended consequences.

My noble friend Lord Lester asked me why the protected characteristic and civil partnership were excluded.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I am sorry; I have not asked that. Although I put it in my draft, I am satisfied with what the Minister said on that.

[Earl Attlee]

I am obliged to the noble Lord.

The aim is to apply the regulations to as many ships as possible of whatever flag, in so far as this is consistent with international law, to limit the effects being felt by the UK flag alone. The extension of the application of Part 5 to EEA ships is therefore limited to those protected characteristics which are underpinned by EU law. A ship flagged to EEA states would be under the same obligations. The characteristic of marriage and civil partnership is not an EU obligation and so is excluded.

My noble friend Lord Higgins made several important points. I accept his points about the importance of the UK register, and I hope that that came out in my comments. On the effect on the UK flag, leaving aside the issue of differential pay for the moment, the effect of applying the new consolidated equality legislation to work on ships is not very burdensome. Indeed, it should bring benefits through greater clarity for employers and employees.

As to the effect caused by the need to change the law in respect of seafarers’ pay, we cannot say with absolute certainty what the effect will be on the UK-flagged fleet, although many noble Lords have suggested what it could be. We have consulted closely with all sides of the shipping industry on the likely effect and will monitor it closely. We are regulating in a way that will be least disruptive to the industry while allowing it to comply with EU law. We are also seeking undertakings from the European Commission that it will be vigilant in ensuring that other EU member states are also following EU law.

My noble friend Lord Higgins asked me about the review provided for in the regulations, and asked whether we would review earlier. As I indicated in my opening remarks, we will keep the implementation and the situation under close observation.

My noble friend Lord Moynihan asked me why the regulations did not appear to apply to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has been asked to introduce its own parallel legislation at the earliest opportunity. Until that legislation is also approved, the UK will remain in breach of EU law. The European Commission has been informed that action in Northern Ireland was necessarily delayed due to recent elections, but that the matter is in hand. My noble friend also asked me a rather detailed question about the definition of “sufficiently close link”. It is a basket of measures as set out in Regulation 2(2)(b). It will be determined by reference to all relevant factors including those set out in the regulations.

Noble Lords asked me particularly about the Carter report. I agree that it is a significant report. Susan Carter reviewed all of the evidence submitted by stakeholders and came to the conclusion that she did. She was not asked to consider any other evidence, such as that from government. Maybe Susan Carter’s report was a comment on the industry’s evidence to maintain the status quo. As I have already indicated, my honourable friend Mr Penning, the Shipping Minister, has consulted extensively.

I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. The wider issues are indeed complex. As indicated, I will write to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

Will the noble Earl write specifically on the consideration that the department has given to Susan Carter’s report and say why it does not share her conclusion? He seems to give a partial explanation which I do not think is valid. Susan Carter consulted as widely for her report as the department has for the regulations.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

While the noble Earl is dealing with that, I should add that Ms Carter states at the beginning of her report:

“This report reviews evidence submitted by key stakeholders in the shipping industry about differential pay for seafarers on grounds of nationality. The Department for Transport invited them to submit financial estimates of the likely impact of either: option A … or option B”.

That the department did not give evidence is, with respect, not the point; the point is that the department asked her to do this job on the basis of evidence submitted by—that ghastly phrase—“key stakeholders”. Therefore, I am mystified as to how anyone reading her report could fault her findings or her conclusion. I would be very grateful if the Minister would write to us about that as well.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, paragraph 8.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that a summary of the evidence submitted can be found on a website. I will not read out the website address, but when I write to noble Lords I will discuss the Carter report. As indicated, I will write to all Members of the Committee before seeking the House’s approval of the affirmative instrument.