Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Mark Hoban

Monday 10th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Lady will be aware that the minimum service standards for each provider are published. Last month, we saw data produced on off-benefit flows and on the number of people getting six months’ work. The trade association ERSA—Employment Related Services Association—produced details on the number of job starts. I think that a huge amount of data has been published, and I am surprised that the hon. Lady is complaining about it.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

9. What discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on the implications of his proposed changes to housing benefit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Mark Hoban

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

The key thing is to have a credible fiscal and economic policy. The Conservative party and this Government have that credible economic policy, whereas the Labour party has no idea where it wants to take the economy. The measures we are taking to tackle the deficit which keep interests rates low are providing the biggest benefit we can give to businesses to help them grow in future.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

13. What assessment he has made of the likely level of economic growth in 2012.

Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [Lords]

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Mark Hoban

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

Indeed, but I speak as somebody who in the previous Parliament was the Minister responsible for terrorist issues and policing. Those are serious matters, and the Government need to take action on them. There is always a balance to be struck between the civil liberties of individuals and the civil liberty of ordinary people to live their lives in peace without the threat of terrorist activity. On balance, my judgement is that we need to support the Government’s proposals in the Bill, which initially had its genesis in the previous Government, so that all measures are taken to ensure that the asset freeze can take place and action can be taken accordingly.

I understand the concerns of the hon. Member for Cambridge; they are valid and should be explored. However, in clause 26 there is a right of appeal for designation both at an interim and final stage. If an individual feels aggrieved, he can undertake to exercise that right of appeal. However, very few people will do so if the Bill becomes law, because the Treasury will have taken steps to ensure that those individuals are rightly in the frame, for the reasons that the asset regime has been introduced, and I trust the Treasury to take those actions; that is not something we say all the time but, on this occasion, I have done so.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman feels that he has raised the issues of concern. I am sure that the Minister will give, almost word for word, the exact response that I would give. I am happy to talk about the amendments in more detail, but my message to the hon. Member for Cambridge is clear: in the event of him pushing the matter to a vote, he will find not just the Financial Secretary against him, but the shadow Minister.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

I shall respond to each of the amendments proposed by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). I welcome the approach adopted by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who speaks with some authority on these matters, having dealt with them in government. Looking around the Chamber, he is probably the Member with the most experience of tackling these issues. The amendments were considered in Committee. They were tabled by the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), and I made the same comments in response to them then as I do today. He sought to withdraw them in Committee and I hope that the hon. Member for Cambridge will do the same today.

As I said in Committee, amendment 2 would change the threshold for the making of a final designation from the Treasury from reasonably believing a person is or has been involved in terrorism, to needing to be satisfied on the balance of probabilities. As I emphasised on Second Reading and in Committee, the asset-freezing regime needs to be preventive to fulfil our UN Security Council obligations and to meet our national security needs. In other words, it must be capable of being used at an early stage to disrupt and prevent terrorist acts.

In our view, a threshold on the balance of probabilities would not enable us to act when needed. The balance of probabilities test is applied by courts in the context of civil proceedings and requires one party to demonstrate to the court that it is more likely than not that a particular fact is true. If that test were applied to asset freezing, it would require the Treasury to be satisfied and to be able to demonstrate to a court that a person is more likely than not to be or to have been involved in terrorism.

That may sound reasonable but—to echo the words of the right hon. Member for Delyn—it is, in fact, a high burden. The fact that the burden of proof would rest with the Treasury means, for example, that if the picture were unclear and an equally plausible argument could be made that an individual was or was not involved in terrorism, the Treasury would be unable to impose an asset freeze. The serious threat posed by terrorism means that in such cases where the reasonable belief standard is met, the Treasury should be able to freeze assets on a preventive basis to protect the public. The alternative is to hold back until further evidence is accumulated. However, that runs the risk of an individual being able to carry out a terrorist act without preventive action being taken.

I hope that the hon. Member for Cambridge bears it in mind that—as eminent judges such as Lord Justice Laws and Lord Rodgers have remarked—we need to be mindful of the fact that material available to the authorities about terrorist plots may be fragmentary and incomplete. The picture may not be complete for good reasons, but that does not mean that the material is wrong. Such a situation simply reflects a number of real-world facts about terrorism: that intelligence has to be gathered covertly; that terrorists take considerable steps to disguise their activities; and that the need to protect the public sometimes means that plots have to be disrupted at an early stage, rather than allowed to run on further to accumulate more evidence. For those reasons, moving to a balance of probabilities test would have significant risks for our national security.

I also explained in Committee that a balance of probabilities test would be out of line with international best practice. The Financial Action Task Force makes it clear in its guidance on terrorist asset freezing that a legal threshold of reasonable suspicion or reasonable belief should be used. We are not aware of any other country that uses a balance of probabilities test to freeze terrorist assets in accordance with UN Security Council resolution 1373. As I set out on Second Reading and in Committee, for those reasons we remain convinced that a reasonable belief test is the right threshold for making a designation and that it strikes the right balance between protecting our national security on the one hand and protecting civil liberties on the other.

[Mr Hanson]

Will the Minister confirm again what I think he said in Committee, which was that whatever the outcome of the review of terrorist legislation—including the review of the case of AF and control orders—the Bill will stand as it is now without amendment in that respect?

[Mr Hoban]

If we assume that the legislation will receive Royal Assent, it will stand. However, clearly, all terrorism legislation is kept under review and it would be wrong to prejudge the outcome of any other court case. We have taken forward the best form of the legislation, which was, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, based on the previous Government’s proposals. The Bill reflects case law as it stands.

Despite the approach we have taken on reasonable belief, the Bill will not result in the Treasury making decisions where it thinks it is more likely than not a person is not involved in terrorism. The point is that the decision maker should believe, from a careful assessment of what may well be a complicated intelligence picture, that a person is involved in terrorism. The threshold of reasonable belief for a decision is one used in many contexts, including in decisions made about terrorism, such as under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and under schedule 7 to the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008. The courts are then asked on an appeal or review to determine whether there are reasonable grounds for that belief. That is the right test. It provides an assurance that a proper burden is placed on those seeking to impose a designation but, at the same time, it enables action to be taken to protect national security when needed.

Let me move on to amendment 3, which, as the hon. Member for Cambridge pointed out, reflects the report by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I understand that the amendment would ensure that individuals are sufficiently informed of the reasons for their designation at the point their assets are frozen in order to enable them to mount an effective challenge. As I stated in Committee, the Government do not believe it is necessary to include such an obligation in the Bill because the JCHR’s proposal was intended only to ensure that the Treasury complies with the basic administrative law principle of giving reasons for such decisions. It is the Government’s view that administrative law principles apply regardless of whether a duty is specified in this legislation. Writing such an obligation into the Bill is therefore unnecessary. I think that that was the commitment the hon. Gentleman was seeking.

Amendments 5 and 11 were considered in the other place and in Committee. It is worth reminding the House that the Prime Minister announced in July that the Government will review the whole matter of the use of sensitive material in judicial proceedings and will issue a Green Paper next year. We expect the Green Paper to be published in the summer. The Government do not consider it appropriate to pre-empt it, which we would certainly be doing if we were to accept amendment 5.

Let me consider the amendment in detail. It seeks to create a new subsection within section 67 of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, which provides for the content of court rules about disclosure in financial restrictions proceedings and which will apply to court rules made in relation to challenges to decisions under the Bill. The amendment would place a requirement for the court rules, which are to be made initially by the Lord Chancellor for England and Wales and Northern Ireland, to ensure that the Treasury provides sufficient open disclosure to enable the designated person to give effective instructions to the special advocate. That form of words is based on the European Court of Human Rights judgment in the case of A, which was applied by the House of Lords in the case of AF and others to the stringent control orders that were before it. The effect of the amendment would therefore be to apply “AF No. 3” principles to challenges to final designations. I reassure the hon. Member for Cambridge that persons designated by the Treasury will have the full protections afforded them under article 6 of the European convention on human rights. Section 67(6) of the 2008 Act states:

“Nothing in this section, or in the rules of court made under it, is to be read as requiring the court to act in a manner inconsistent with article 6 of the Human Rights Convention.”

It is therefore absolutely clear that article 6 rights apply in full to asset freezing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

I did not know that we were going to proceed at such a quick pace this evening, although perhaps it is not as quick as you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and other colleagues might have hoped. I hope that we will not detain the House too much longer on the matters before us.

I will deal with amendments 6 to 10 first, before returning to amendment 1. As the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) pointed out, amendment 1 relates to a topic that gave rise to one of the longer debates in Committee.

The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) relate to the appointment of the independent reviewer and the terms by which he will report. My hon. Friend and other hon. Members will be aware that such amendments were debated at length during the Bill’s passage in the other place and in Committee. As I said in Committee, the proposals are based on the provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 that relate to the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. That provides an effective and suitable model for the statutory independent asset-freezing reviewer.

Amendment 6 would require the independent reviewer to be approved by Parliament. I believe that the intention is to ensure that the reviewer is suitably independent of Government. I hope that I can reassure my hon. Friend that the Government are fully committed to the independence of the reviewer. Independent oversight is an essential element of the safeguards that the coalition Government have introduced into the Bill, and it will be the principal objective of any appointment. I will touch on the recruitment process later.

We do not believe that it is necessary for Parliament to approve the independent reviewer. That would be a significant departure from standard practice. The appointment of the reviewer by Government reflects the long-standing principle of ministerial responsibility. It is Ministers who are accountable to Parliament and to the public for the people whom they appoint. Parliament will, of course, be able to scrutinise the work of the reviewer and to hold him or her to account through existing mechanisms—for example, through Select Committee scrutiny.

My hon. Friend proposed the compromise of a requirement that an appropriate Select Committee approve the appointment of the reviewer. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General is due to meet the Liaison Committee shortly to discuss the pre-appointment hearing process. A decision to add new appointments to the list of posts subject to pre-appointment scrutiny may be announced as a result of that meeting.

Amendments 7, 8 and 9 would replace the independent reviewer’s obligation to report to the Treasury and the Treasury’s obligation to lay that report before Parliament with an obligation for the reviewer to report directly to Parliament. To draw a comparison, all the annual reports and ad hoc reports produced by Lord Carlile, the current independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, have been provided in the first instance to the Home Office to check that they do not inadvertently contain any classified material that cannot be published. Hon. Members will recognise that asset freezing deals with sensitive and classified information. That is why the Government believe that a similar approach is appropriate.

The independent reviewer will have access to all relevant papers and evidence, including highly classified intelligence reports and, on occasion, material that is being considered as part of a separate criminal prosecution. It is important to ensure that published reports do not include classified or sub judice material, and Parliament could not undertake such a check. I reassure my hon. Friend that the Government will not seek to influence the outcome of any report. The reports will be provided to Parliament as quickly as possible after they have been delivered, and they will be available to the public.

Amendment 10 suggests that the appointment of the independent reviewer should be for five years, and that it should not be renewable. We do not believe it necessary or desirable to have a statutory limit on the length of time that a reviewer should remain in post. There might be valid reasons why someone wishes to step down at an earlier stage, but there might also be valid reasons why they wish to occupy the position for a longer period. They will build up significant experience and significant knowledge of how legislation works, and that will be invaluable.

It is important to take the opportunity to learn from the experience of the current reviewer and see how he feels the system should work. In the debate in the other place, Lord Carlile said about appointment procedures:

“As to the way in which the independent reviewer is appointed, I do not have any very strong views. Appointment by a Minister does not make the reviewer any less independent. Many public appointments have sprung surprises on government; for example, chief inspectors of prisons. Independence is in the way the person concerned operates.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 25 October 2010; Vol. 721, c. 1085.]

I notice that the right hon. Member for Delyn raises his eyebrows at the reference to the chief inspector of prisons—he clearly knows from his own experience how independent such people can be once they are appointed.

On the question of whether submitting reports to the Government, rather than directly to Parliament, would run the risk of reports being altered in any way, Lord Carlile said:

“I cannot imagine any circumstances in which any honourable person appointed to this role would be prepared to change their report at the behest of a Minister or civil servant for political reasons. It has never happened. It did not happen with any of the reviewers before I was appointed, it has not happened during my period of tenure, and I do not think it will happen with any successor I can foresee under the present or changed arrangements.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 25 October 2010; Vol. 721, c. 1086.]

That reinforces the right hon. Gentleman’s experiences.

It is essential that the independent review of the asset-freezing regime is robust, impartial and transparent, and we are satisfied that the provisions in the Bill regarding the appointment and operation of the reviewer are appropriate to achieve that. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge will not press his amendments.

Amendment 1, tabled by the right hon. Member for Delyn, would, as he said, ensure that whoever fulfilled the role of Home Office independent reviewer of terrorism legislation would also fulfil the role of independent reviewer of asset freezing. I shall provide the House with an update on the Treasury’s position on the appointment of an independent reviewer, but first I wish to set out why we do not support the amendment.

The Government do not accept that the independent reviewer for asset freezing must always be the same person as the Home Office counter-terrorism reviewer. Requiring them to be the same person would unnecessarily reduce flexibility, and could therefore constrain the Government’s ability to appoint the best person to the post. There might be good reasons why, in a particular case, both roles could not be held by the same person. For example, the best qualified person for the job might simply not have the time to carry out both roles to the level required.

We have to remember that both roles are demanding and important. Counter-terrorism legislation is an expansive and complex area, and the issues raised concerning the balance between protecting security and protecting civil liberties are of fundamental importance. Moreover, individuals may well wish to combine their work as independent reviewers with other ongoing professional commitments. That is entirely reasonable, as long as it does not give rise to conflicts of interest. In the light of that, it would be wrong to say that we must only ever appoint somebody who can perform both roles. We need to retain flexibility and always look for the most suitable person to do the job.

We recognise, however, that there are good arguments for combining the two roles where it is possible and desirable to do so. That might produce greater consistency and coherence and better value for money, as the right hon. Member for Delyn said in Committee. As I have said, however, we need to consider the matter on a case-by-case basis and not just assume that combining the two roles is the only approach that can work.

I now turn to the current situation. My officials have been in close contact with Home Office and Cabinet Office officials to explore the matter further. There has also been an initial discussion with the incoming counter-terrorism reviewer, David Anderson, to explore whether he would be willing to be considered for the asset freezing reviewer post. Mr Anderson has indicated that he would be willing to take up the post were it to be offered to him, and that neither he nor the Treasury is aware of any impediment to his taking on the role were it to be offered.

At this stage, the Treasury has not made an offer of appointment to the role, and in our view it would be premature to do so. After all, the Bill is not yet law and the post does not yet exist. However, I reassure the House that the Treasury is considering all the relevant issues, including value for money and the interconnection of the two roles. The process of appointing a reviewer is on track, and the appointment will be made in plenty of time for the reviewer to prepare their first report, which is due nine months after the Bill comes into force. I hope that that update will reassure Members of the progress that the Treasury is making in filling the post, and of its recognition of the points made today about costs and the interconnection of the two roles. On that basis, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

[Mr Hanson]

I think I will take that as a sort of yes from the Minister about the principle behind the amendment, even though he is not accepting it. I feel reassured by what he has said. He has been very fair in his assessment that there are synergies between the two roles and potential cost savings. An individual could undertake both roles, and from my experience the two posts may be reviewing a similar pool of people. I believe that progress has been made.

The Bill obviously needs Royal Assent very quickly, because of the expiry of the previous legislation. I urge the Minister to ensure that, upon his final approval of a person to review the operation of the Bill, he tables a written ministerial statement. The individual needs to be in post prior to the time set out in clause 31(2) for the production of the first set of reviews, which is nine months after part 1 comes into force. It is important for the House to have feedback on that, and that will keep the House informed, at least in part, of matters related to the other amendments in this group.

I am very pleased to “bag” my amendment. The Minister has made his case and come as near as he can to saying what will happen. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Third Reading

Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Mark Hoban

Monday 22nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

Let me make some progress and explain why we are repealing the Saving Gateway Accounts Act 2009. The repeal is part of our deficit reduction policy. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) quoted from my Second Reading speech. It was the third time that I had heard him use the same quotation. Let me now, for the third time, expand a little on what I said on that occasion. I said:

“The pilot scheme demonstrated some benefits, but it demonstrated some challenges too… What are the long-term benefits? What are we getting in return for the quite generous bonus that we are giving to savers?.. In the second pilot, questions were raised about whether the scheme was effective… First, there was no statistically significant evidence that, in delivering genuinely new savings, the saving gateway accounts delivered higher overall net worth.”

I referred to a

“number of anecdotes, rather than hard evidence, used to support the proposal”,

and added:

“It appears that money was moved from one set of savings to another, perhaps from a current account to a savings gateway account, simply to secure the Government match.”—[Official Report, 13 January 2009; Vol. 486, c. 145.]

While accepting the principle behind the saving gateway account, we nevertheless flagged significant concerns about its effectiveness.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the pilots. According to the conclusion from the second pilot,

“when we look at a broader measure of net worth (including investments as well as all cash deposit accounts), there is no statistically significant evidence that funds held in these forms have increased… we nevertheless do not find statistically significant evidence of an increase in overall net worth among this group.”

Carl Emmerson said in his evidence to the Committee:

“There was not any really strong evidence from the saving gateway that it led to more overall saving from lower-income households.”––[Official Report, Saving Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Public Bill Committee, 2 November 2010; c. 18, Q42.]

Given the fiscal constraints that we face, we must question the value for money to be obtained from this project. It would be nice to be able to proceed with it, but the evidence suggests that it does not increase saving and does not possess the benefits ascribed to it by Labour Members. Not only is the evidence of its effectiveness in question, but it would cost more than £300 million over the next five years, which makes it unaffordable in the light of the need to reduce the deficit.

The other strand of the argument, touched on by the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), is access. Who would be able to gain access to the saving gateway account? My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) echoed Adrian Coles, the director general of the Building Societies Association, who said that

“no building society had committed to offering a saving gateway account”.

Eric Leenders of the British Bankers’ Association said

“there were only a couple of providers who felt that it was suitably beneficial for them to provide the account.”

The banks that said they would provide accounts were Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds. The Post Office would take part in the scheme only if it received more taxpayers’ money.

I do not think we would have seen the easy access that the hon. Lady believed to be a key part of the scheme’s attraction. The only credit union outlet in my constituency is in a deprived area, and is open for only a short time each week. In my constituency, credit unions would not have been a vehicle for access to the saving gateway account.

Given that we do not intend to proceed with the scheme, we should leave no room for uncertainty among financial institutions or advice-giving bodies, and the best way in which to be clear about our intentions is to repeal the 2009 Act. I believe that if a future Government revisited the scheme, they would design it very differently. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to press his amendment to the vote, I will ask my hon. Friends to oppose it.

[Mr Hanson]

I am disappointed by the Minister’s response, but that is the nature of the role that I currently fulfil. He did not oppose the saving gateway in opposition or in the general election; he did not vote against Third Reading of the Saving Gateway Accounts Bill; and he could have taken the opportunity today to accept the amendment enabling him to delay the repeal of the Act until a later date in order to judge how the economic situation developed. I have to assume that he says one thing in opposition and another in government, and that he is abolishing the scheme on the basis of dogma rather than the economic situation. I urge my hon. Friends to reject clause 2, and to support the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Mark Hoban

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

The hon. Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) is a member of the Finance Bill Committee, as am I. I am in the Chamber defending our position on behalf of the Labour Opposition. The hon. Gentleman is in the Finance Bill Committee saying nothing about what is happening upstairs and supporting the Conservative party in Divisions upstairs. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) should reflect on those matters.

The changes proposed in the Bill, coupled with changes to direct tax, tax credits and benefits, will hit women harder than men. The spending review changes hit women twice as hard as men. The emergency Budget changes hit women three times as hard as men. Cuts in child care, tax credits, child benefit and other support will make it harder for women to work. More than £6 billion is now being cut in direct financial support for children—three times more than is being taken from banks.

I come back to the fact that the banking levy proposed by the Conservative Government, which was a Labour Government initiative, will raise £2.4 billion. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle proposes a banking levy of £3.5 billion.

[Mr Hoban]

The banking levy was not an idea of the previous Government. The previous Chancellor of the Exchequer ruled out the banking levy that we have introduced.

[Mr Hanson]

No. If there is a banking levy in place, we will support a higher banking levy. Would the hon. Gentleman support a banking levy of £3.5 billion and scrap the abolition of pregnancy grants today? No, he would not.

[Mr Hoban]

Last week the banking levy that the shadow Chancellor proposed was to pay for infrastructure. This week it is to pay for the cost of child trust funds and the health in pregnancy grant. With the banking levy stretched so far, the right hon. Gentleman needs to control his spending commitments.

[Mr Hanson]

There is a range of measures that the Labour Government introduced and would have introduced in relation to deficit reduction. There is a range of measures that my right hon. and hon. Friends and I were elected to implement to reduce the deficit over a four-year period, including an additional banking levy and help and support for deficit reduction. [Interruption.] The Financial Secretary says that is not so. Whatever happened at the general election, we were elected on a policy to reduce the deficit over four and a half years. We would have done that. We would have implemented measures including a range of tax changes and help and support for public sector efficiencies of £15 billion. He is making a choice that puts women, children and the poorest in our society at the greatest disadvantage as a result of the changes. That is a disgrace. We should have looked at the situation differently.