County Lines Drug Trafficking

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is right that we should put children at the focus of county line activity. By that, I mean preventing children from being involved in county lines, not criminalising those children who are involved in county lines but seeing them, as I think my noble friend indicated, as victims who need our support. I will take away her contribution and discuss it with my right honourable friend the Police Minister, see what steps are being taken to do that, and contact my noble friend accordingly.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, more than 27,000 suspected drug suppliers are either on bail or released under investigation due to forensic and digital backlogs. One in five of those cases has been going on for more than a year, and currently there are more than 25,000 digital devices waiting to be examined. While a government funding boost is always welcome, what is being done specifically to address the lack of regional and national co-ordination and the insufficient numbers of trained forensic personnel?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes a valid point, and I will start from that premise. The Government have put an extra £1.1 billion into police forces with the police settlement that was approved by the House of Commons just a few weeks ago, and that is providing a range of functions. It is for police forces, chief constables and police and crime commissioners to determine the use of that resource locally, but she makes a valuable point about co-ordination and central management, which I will continue to reflect on because we need to ensure that there is not a backlog. The amount of digital material we have on our phones now—Twitter contents, phone calls, texts, Facebook messages and everything else—means that when someone is arrested there is a giant amount of digital information, and that is growing daily and monthly. It is important that we focus in on getting the right digital information to ensure convictions and drive up the conviction rate from the figure that I mentioned for between July and September last year, and that means tackling the backlog that the noble Baroness has rightly mentioned.

Domestic Abusers: Reoffending

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend hits on an important point. Domestic violence does not just happen when an individual reaches a certain age; it is inbuilt and ingrained over a long period of time. Therefore, in order to prevent domestic violence downstream, the way young people in primary and secondary schools and beyond are educated in mutual respect and understanding, and in non-violence, is extremely important. I would hope that my colleagues at the Department for Education, and indeed in the devolved Administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, recognise that need for early intervention and resilience building to ensure that we do not create the perpetrators of the future who will then need the required investment and intervention I talked about in my earlier answers.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner found that 60% of domestic abuse survivors wanted their perpetrator to attend a behavioural change programme, but that only 7% could do so because of the lack of availability. We do not have enough programmes and we do not know which programmes work best. Although some studies, such as Project Mirabal and the Drive programme, show promising results, the programme evaluation overall has been painfully slow. What steps are the Government taking to accelerate it?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As I mentioned in my original answer, the Government have put £20.5 million into perpetrator intervention programmes currently, and those are under evaluation as we speak. The evaluations are slow by their very nature and, again, I can only answer for post 4 July 2024. What we are trying to do is examine, with the violence against women and girls strategy, what works effectively and what interventions we can take forward. Therefore, both the points that the noble Baroness made and other considerations of intervention—and how we evaluate that intervention to make sure it has a real impact and give comfort to victims primarily—are important issues. We will be examining that during the development of the violence against women and girls strategy.

Emergency Service Network Programme

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Plan B is part of plan A, which is also to provide the 292 4G mobile phone sites that the noble Lord mentioned in his question. We have picked this up. We have made a decision to terminate the previous contract; we had a court case to do that. We are now putting in place a revised contract—we have to exit the former contract—and resilience will be built in to make sure that this is the most important service that can be provided, because this is how police, fire and other emergency services communicate with each other in times of difficulty. It is an absolute priority for the Home Office to get this right, and I hope that we will do so in the course of the next few years.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, I keep hearing that the Government want us to be leaders in AI, but it is very difficult to work out how this can be when the Government have not dealt with the fact that the police are being run as an analogue operation in a digital age. It almost beggars belief that all 43 police forces in the UK use different IT systems, the majority of which do not even speak to each other.

We have just heard about the 51 year-old police national computer; that is never going to be sorted in the next, goodness knows, five to 10 years, and it stores only very basic biometric data. Many of the drones the police are using are clapped out and need to be replaced. When are the Government going to wake up to the major problem the police have got with technology and actually provide the funds to deal with this once and for all?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes an extremely valid point. There are 44 police forces in total—43 plus the British Transport Police—and they have a range of different technological methods of gathering information and working. Obviously, from a taxpayer efficiency and a security point of view, we want to make sure that we get the best deal. Part of the Government’s efficiency drive will be to look at how we can work with police forces, which are independent, to do that downstream. The change we have made from the previous Government’s position will save the taxpayer £200 million per year when up and running. That is a more efficient way of getting a better service for the taxpayer.

Prevent: Learning Review

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Thursday 13th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the murder of Sir David Amess highlights the urgent need to strengthen our counterterrorism strategy if we are to prevent similar tragedies in future. The terrorist threat is continually evolving. More extremists now follow multiple ideologies, or none at all, with the internet and social media fuelling self-radicalisation. Conspiracy theories, personal grievances, misogyny and anti-Government sentiment further blur the picture, making credible threats harder and harder to predict. To stay effective, our approach must adapt to this increasingly fragmented and unpredictable landscape.

The review that was made public yesterday highlights that Sir David Amess’s killer had his Prevent file closed too soon in 2016—a failure the Home Office and counterterrorism police have known about since at least February 2022. Yet, as we heard last week, less than three years on, a similar pattern of failure has been identified in the review following the Southport stabbings. This suggests that, while much may have been done to improve the workings of Prevent in the last decade, some critical lessons have still not been learned. We therefore echo the sentiments of Sir David’s family in welcoming the fact that light has finally been shone on those failings, following yesterday’s retrospective publication of the 2022 report.

The Liberal Democrats have consistently raised concerns about whether the Prevent strategy is the most effective mechanism for addressing radicalisation. Unfortunately, recent events confirm that its shortcomings are not isolated incidents, and I therefore welcome the Government’s decision to task the new Prevent commissioner with reviewing the handling of Sir David’s case. Can the Minister confirm that the commissioner will have a broad and independent mandate to conduct a thorough assessment of Prevent? Will the Government commit to placing this role on a statutory footing to ensure accountability and effectiveness?

Any comprehensive review must also examine how Prevent collaborates with stakeholders, including police and crime commissioners and elected mayors. Community engagement is central to an effective counterterrorism strategy. Can the Minister outline how local communities will be consulted in the development of future counterextremism policies?

The current system is simply not equipped to manage emerging risks effectively. We live in a world where counterterrorism casework involving young people is increasing, and more referrals are now for individuals with a vulnerability rather than an apparent ideology. To tackle both emerging and traditional forms of radicalisation, we urgently need a system that is built for the reality of modern extremism.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for their comments and contributions and I will try to answer the questions accordingly. I begin with the praise given to the late Sir David Amess by the noble Lord. Like him, I served in Parliament with Sir David—in my case, for 28 years. I shared with him a role on the Panel of Chairs, chairing debates in committee and in the House. I found him to be an honest, open colleague who stood up for his constituency with immense passion, and I am very pleased that Southend is now a city as a result of Sir David’s campaign. I also want to remember that primarily, Sir David was a father and a husband, and his family grieve much more than we will ever know. Our thoughts are with them today.

The noble Lord and the noble Baroness talked about the failures of the Prevent system in the case of the convicted killer of Sir David. There were a number of recommendations, and six findings were highlighted in the report. The Government wanted to publish those findings to ensure that they were open and transparent, and that the concerns raised would not be hidden behind a secret report. It is right that we did that this week, and it is also important that we look at the four recommendations in the report. To date, the Government have completed all four recommendations on key issues. I hope that that will give some comfort to those who have been the victims of previous attacks.

Having said that, we recognise that there are a number of considerations. The Shawcross report, which the noble Lord mentioned, made a number of recommendations; again, the Government have accepted those. They are in the process of implementing, I think, 31 of the 32 recommendations and will complete those in due course.

The noble Lord asked whether we need to look at other forms of monitoring. The terrorism prevention measures, which are in place to monitor people who are on the radar or who have had convictions, are extremely important and the Government keep them under regular review. The noble Lord also mentioned the Prevent commissioner, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey. We have given the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, a temporary position for the moment, and have asked him to do three things, in effect: a sprint review of what happened in the specific case of Southport and the murders that took place there; a sprint review of what happened in relation to the murder of Sir David Amess, now that this document has been published; and a long-term review—which may well be taken forward with the full-time commissioner, who is shortly to be appointed—of the Prevent legislation as a whole. That review will look at legislation and the operation of Prevent; examine any specific lessons learned from those two horrific incidents—Southport and the murder of Sir David; and examine whether there are any recommendations to bring back to Ministers to continue to improve the position and help ensure that we stop future murders.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, mentioned that there is considerable focus on potential Islamist and neo-Nazi terrorism, and that that is considerably fuelled by online activity. We are committed to looking at the implementation of the Online Safety Act, which will come into real effect on 17 March this year. But my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has also written to tech companies, asking them to be very wary of what I would term illegal criminal terrorist content and to remove it, pending the Government’s own review of whether there needs to be further action downstream through the Prevent review as a whole. Online radicalisation is extremely important and is the driver of many of these sole individuals who commit horrific crimes without any organisation behind them. They learn and they mirror, and the Government are extremely cognisant of that self-radicalisation online.

I turn to some of the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, made. It is extremely important that we look at the whole question of internet regulation and at the six failings that were identified and the four recommendations that we have now implemented. I recognise the concerns that have been raised, but there is still a very positive story to tell about much of what is happening in Prevent. Since Prevent was put on a statutory footing by the previous Government in 2014, and onwards since 2015, some 5,000 individuals have been referred and have successfully gone through what I will term de-radicalisation programmes, having been identified as vulnerable individuals with a range of tendencies that are driving them to potential activity. That success has been positive, even though there are terrible failings, of which the murders of Sir David and the three young girls in Southport are critical examples.

In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, the role of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, will be to look at Prevent legislation and policy; to oversee and ensure implementation of recommendations from previous reports and reviews, including the one on Sir David; to look at the coronial process; and to look at general Prevent learning reviews. It will be independent of government: no one who knows the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, will doubt that he will be independent of government. His job is to make recommendations, raise critical issues and, along with the general political process of the House of Commons and House of Lords, hold Ministers to account on the delivery of these recommendations.

I shall end where I started. Sir David Amess was a good man. He did not deserve the death that he had. He served his constituents well, and we need to be cognisant of the fact, particularly those of us who hold public office as elected Members of Parliament or Members of this House, that what happened to Sir David could have happened to any of us, at a surgery or at a public meeting. I am extremely cognisant of the fact that we need to address this.

Going back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, the Speaker’s Conference is looking at security. Operation Bridger, the police-Home Office response for Members of Parliament in particular, is looking at security requirements generally. On a case-by-case basis, Members of this House can be examined and supported by Operation Bridger. That is extremely important, because the key thing is that the murder of Sir David Amess was an attack on democracy in this society. It was an attack on all of us, and on all the values that bring us to this House and to the House of Commons. So, I praise his work and I mourn his loss, but our lesson from this event must be to ensure that we improve the Prevent strategy to prevent radicalisation of further individuals downstream.

Independent Office for Police Conduct

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Independent Office for Police Conduct is accountable to Ministers, as it was when the Opposition were in Government. There has been a recommendation from a review of the Cabinet Office’s public bodies review programme. That review was published in March 2024, when the noble Lord’s Government were in office. It looked at the whole question of the IOPC’s governance, accountability, efficiency and efficacy. There were 93 recommendations in that report, 73 of which have been accepted by the IOPC. The remaining recommendations were in his Government’s in-tray. They are now being reviewed and will be implemented shortly by this Government. Included in them is the method by which the IOPC is accountable to Ministers and therefore to this House and the House of Commons.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, over the last year, the IOPC has made a range of recommendations to the police about things such as strip-searching children and suspicionless stop and search. All the recommendations have been accepted by the police. Who is responsible for making sure that the recommendations that were accepted will be implemented? Will the Government publish the information so that we can all be sure that when recommendations are accepted, they are carried out in practice? As the Minister will know, this is not always the case. A lot of recommendations are accepted and then totally ignored.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is the responsibility of police chiefs, police and crime commissioners, and mayors in areas where the mayors are responsible, such as the Mayor of Greater Manchester, the Mayor of London and others, to implement recommendations made by the IOPC. I assure the noble Baroness that, ultimately, the buck stops here.

Anti-social Behaviour and Shoplifting

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Monday 16th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As always, shoplifting takes place for a range of reasons. But I will not excuse shoplifting and shop theft under any circumstances, because they are still crimes. I grew up on a very poor estate in Liverpool and in Cheshire. It was not acceptable to shoplift then and it is not acceptable now. We need to ensure that we tackle that by having neighbourhood policing, a greater emphasis and focus for the police on shop theft and greater support to retailers. I appreciate the noble Earl’s view on poverty: we look at poverty in the round and put measures in for a range of reasons to lift people out of poverty, to ensure that they can live reasonable, productive and effective lives.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has said that, before introducing respect orders, the Government will run a number of pilots, which is a very good idea. But current laws on anti-social behaviour have never been thoroughly reviewed and the Home Office does not even keep records on how they are being used at the moment. So, before the Government introduce these new respect orders, will they agree to review the current laws and how they are working, so that lessons learned could be used to inform the pilots?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that comment. We will keep all legislation under review. Again, after 14 years out of office, we want to review some of the measures: how they have been utilised and what can be done to improve community resilience. The most important thing we can do is certainly pilot the respect orders, but a really important issue will be the 13,000 neighbourhood police and community support officers, who can embed themselves more in the community, can look at what responses are required, can work with people such as shopkeepers in relation to the shop theft that my noble friend Lady Hazarika mentioned, and can work with the community to look at what could best be utilised to gain the support of the community in reducing crime.

Guns Manufactured by 3D Printers

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his helpful intervention. I say quite simply again that 3D-printed firearms are captured by existing firearms legislation. If a 3D-printed firearm is made, it is treated in exactly the same way as any other type of illegal firearm. So they are covered by the legislation, but the suggestions he made are worthy of consideration. We keep those matters under review. Again, there will be opportunities in this Session to look at those issues as a potential police and crime Bill goes through this House.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the barrier for acquiring these weapons has been lowered by advancing technology, with criminals, extremists and everyone else being capable of making these guns in a shed or in their own home. Does the Minister accept that it is not good enough to rely on a Private Member’s Bill to tighten the law in this area, and that the Government really need to act as a matter of urgency on this?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am not aware that the Government are relying on a Private Member’s Bill. There is a Private Member’s Bill coming forward, but it is not a Government-sponsored Bill; it is being undertaken by a Back-Bencher in the House of Commons. We will reflect on that legislation, look at what is needed and make sure that, if there are loopholes, we tie them up. Ultimately, legislation is there to say that firearms are illegal, and there are severe penalties for the ownership and distribution of those illegal firearms. If there are gaps in the legislation along the lines that noble Lords have mentioned, we will review that in due course next year.

Respect Orders and Anti-social Behaviour

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, a return to proper neighbourhood policing, with officers who know and are known to the communities that they serve, is absolutely essential to tackle the misery caused by anti-social behaviour.

The part of the Statement about respect orders raises a number of issues, which we will return to, no doubt, when we look at the policing Bill. For example, what burden of proof will be required for the courts to approve such an order, and how will police work with communities to ensure that repeated reporting and gathering of evidence has the desired effect? How will the courts deal with applications in a timely manner, given the enormous backlog of cases already before them? What will be the bar for anyone who breaches these orders to find themselves in jail? It is an easy headline to say that offenders will end up in prison, but there is currently such an acute shortage of prison spaces that the Government are already having to release people early. What safeguards will be in the Bill to ensure that these orders do not inadvertently reinvent the Vagrancy Act, in effect, criminalising homelessness?

I particularly welcome the Government’s commitment to removing the de facto threshold of £200 for attracting any action on goods stolen from shops. Last week, one of my friends went into a local pharmacy, where she was picking up a prescription. A few minutes later, a young man walked in, carrying a very large bag, and set to clearing the shelves of all the over-the-counter medication. When somebody who was standing there mentioned the police, he just laughed. Afterwards, the staff said that he comes in on a regular basis but that they are too scared to try to stop him.

Sadly, this is not an isolated story: it is part of a rising tide sweeping the country. The numbers are staggering. In 2023, the Association of Convenience Stores recorded 5.6 million incidents of shoplifting—more than a fivefold increase from the previous year. That is 46,000 thefts every day.

Can the Minister say anything about how the Government intend to deploy technology to make it easier for retailers to log crime by repeat offenders, thereby helping to build a picture that can be used to prosecute? I took a quick look at the Met’s reporting tool over the weekend. The website estimates that it takes 15 minutes to report a non-violent shoplifting offence. I cannot imagine that many shopkeepers, particularly those with small shops, will spend 15 minutes reporting a crime that almost invariably will not end in a prosecution. Will the Minister look at introducing a national scheme for reporting shoplifting, where retailers can quickly access a dedicated platform and report crime in just a few minutes? No one wants to watch people walking out of a shop without paying for goods or, indeed, racing down the footpath on an e-scooter. It unsettles everyone, leaves the most vulnerable feeling unsafe and chips away at our collective sense of security.

I hope the Minister will welcome suggestions and inputs from all sides when we come to discuss the Bill.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the contributions of both His Majesty’s Opposition Front Bench and the Liberal Democrat Front Bench. I reassure the House that we will have plenty of opportunity to discuss these matters because this Statement, in effect, trails legislation that will come into effect at a later date, if passed by both Houses. So we will consider it over the next few weeks and months.

I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, is against anti-social behaviour. I would expect nothing less of him. It is a shame that when in office his party reduced the number of PCSOs by 55% since 2010. It is a shame that confidence in policing fell by 65% when he was at the Home Office and his colleagues were in office. It is a shame that trust in policing fell by 69% over the same period. It is a shame that shop theft, which the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, raised, has risen by 29% over the past year. It is a shame that the former Minister refused to implement suggestions that we will bring forward in the Bill on shop theft and attacks on shop workers. It is a shame that he took 14 years to reinstate the number of police officers in service when he took office in 2010. When I was Police Minister—

Police Reform

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

Yes, the Government are reviewing the guidelines on non-crime hate incidents. We will work with the police college and the National Police Chiefs’ Council to review that. The police should concentrate on serious crime, street crime and neighbourhood policing accordingly.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, additional investment in neighbourhood policing is of course most welcome, but it is also crucial that forces have adequate support staff, to free up front-line officers. The uplift programme’s ring-fenced funding model forced police officers into back-office roles, damaging efficiency and morale. Does the Minister agree that greater flexibility is needed to deliver neighbourhood policing—for example, allowing chief constables to decide the most operationally effective workforce mix of both officers and back-room staff, crucially without them then incurring financial penalties?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government are committed, as part of our manifesto commitments, to encouraging and supplying resources to fund 13,000 neighbourhood police officers. How police and crime commissioners and chief constables determine the use of that resource is for them. We will have the overall policing Statement in December, but last week my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced an extra £264 million for policing, a £0.5 billion fund to support wider policing, and additional measures on respect orders and anti-social behaviour. I hope the noble Baroness will await the Statement in December, but I hear what she says about the flexibility we require.

Counter-Extremism Strategy

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government condemn all attacks against all communities, because people have a right to live their lives according to their own beliefs and religious outlooks. We will certainly look to protect all communities. In fact, the Government have allocated resources to support particularly vulnerable places such as mosques and synagogues. We intend to ensure that we prevent radicalisation, and that means a wide-ranging Prevent programme, but we are sensitive to the fact that we do not wish to stigmatise people at a very young age.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, counterterrorism police say there is a clear link between extremism and domestic abuse, not helped by the amount of misogyny that young men are watching online. With one woman in the UK killed by a man every three days, will the Government commit to looking again at the Law Commission’s recommendations on hate crime to better protect women and girls?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My honourable friend Jess Phillips is the Minister for Safeguarding and Violence against Women and Girls, and she is currently drawing up a range of strategies. If there is a link—and I am not aware of one at this Dispatch Box today—between the issues the noble Baroness has raised, that will form part of my honourable friend’s strategy. I hope the noble Baroness will rest assured that addressing domestic violence and the perpetrators of it is at the forefront of the Government’s agenda, and we plan to halve violence against women and girls during the course of this Parliament.

Non-crime Hate Incidents

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Non-crime hate incidents are not treated as crime, and they are not a big part of daily police work. The College of Policing—which the noble Lord will know well—and the inspectorate are making it clear that there needs to be a common-sense and consistent approach to the way in which they are recorded. But I hope I can assure the noble Lord that this Government are about securing additional police support to tackle the policing of neighbourhood crime and to give local support to the big issues of shoplifting and burglary, as well as domestic violence and violence against women and girls. That is a core part of the mission, and he can hold the Government to account and rest assured that we will do that over the course of the next four and a half years.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the new code of practice highlights the need to protect free speech. However, the police watchdog has raised concerns that officers handling these reports lack the training, capacity and experience to make such complex decisions and that this is placing too much responsibility on them. What are the Government doing to address these concerns?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for those comments. I hope I can reassure her that the College of Policing and the inspectorate will be examining these issues as part of the police performance review that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is initiating. There are important matters to examine regarding how this works, but I go back to the first principle. We have made it clear that our priorities are safer streets and neighbourhood policing, but that NCHIs are part of building a bigger picture of what potential hate incidents are—against not only people’s religion but their sexual preference. They are not acceptable, they need to be monitored and lessons can be learned to improve policing responses in the long term.

Police: Junior Cadet Schemes

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am still getting used to this. I agree wholeheartedly about special constables. When I was last Police Minister 14 and a half years ago, there were 15,505 special constables in the United Kingdom; today, there are 6,118. It is certainly something that we wish to look at and encourage because they play a full role, but the last 14 years’ decline is not down to me.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the Met said that its decision on cadets was driven by resource challenges, but part of this problem is that all police forces are spending vast amounts of their time doing the work of other agencies, because the other agencies cannot cope with the demand. I am talking about, for example, looking after children who are in a dreadful state because they have been taken away from care. Does the Minister agree that before the situation gets out of control, we ought to sit down and come to an agreement about exactly what it is we want our police to do, and follow that up with a fundamental review of how the police are structured and resourced?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for those comments. She will know that one of the manifesto commitments of this incoming Government was to look at how we could improve neighbourhood policing as one major thrust on this, looking at a very local, community-based effort based on local requirements to get some engagement with the police—this goes back to the points made by the noble Lord earlier in his supplementary question. This will ensure that we can focus on the community response to policing issues. We are looking at all sorts of issues now regarding the reform of policing. When the police Bill comes before this House and the House of Commons later in this Session, there will be an opportunity to discuss some of the reforms that we are trying to make.

Police Accountability

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, we welcome the Home Secretary’s emphasis on speeding up proceedings in cases involving police using lethal force. Protracted investigations cause additional trauma to bereaved families, prolong the stress for officers involved and damage wider police morale. We also welcome the equalisation of thresholds for criminal charges to ensure that the police and public are held to the same standards.

These measures are long overdue, because we have now reached a point where police officers feel deeply undervalued, both by the public at large and by many politicians. Low public confidence has led police to believe that the work they do is not always appreciated. Assaults and attacks on police are now a daily occurrence. A recent review found that more than half had been physically attacked in the previous year, with a significant number requiring medical attention.

A police officer’s every move is now captured both on their bodycam and, increasingly, by members of the public, ensuring that their every action and split-second decision is recorded, criticised and documented for posterity on social media. Trial by media raises the real risk that, when things go wrong, the focus is on blaming individual officers, even when the reality points to wider systemic failings. I hope that these measures around the presumption of anonymity and the need to take account of officers’ training and guidance will help alleviate some of these problems.

I admit that I am slightly uneasy about the timing of this announcement, given the danger that it could be taken by some to signal the lowering of police accountability. I am therefore relieved to hear that the Government have made an urgent commitment to toughen up procedures around police misconduct and vetting. By putting national vetting standards on a statutory footing, we can make concrete progress in restoring public confidence. We particularly want to see the rules around officers accused of domestic abuse or sexual offences tightened significantly.

We must remember that the Kaba case is not taking place in a vacuum. Last year, the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, highlighted the continuing presence of racism within policing almost 25 years after a similar conclusion was reached by Macpherson. Data from the National Police Chiefs’ Council shows that black people are five times more likely than white people to have force used against them. It is therefore critical that this accountability review strikes the right balance. It must be accompanied by a clear timetable to implement the existing Angiolini and Casey review recommendations. The public need to be assured that bad officers will always be held to account, that guilty officers will always be punished and that this will be done fairly and transparently. But, at the same time, it is imperative that our police are reassured that if they do the right thing and follow their training, the system will protect them and not be stacked against them.

I ask the Minister whether this review will be open to contributions from all sides. We know that the police have already made submissions, but what opportunity will there be for representatives of, for example, the black community, who are of course particularly invested in the outcome, to contribute?

I have two final points. Polls suggest that more than a third of the public lack confidence in the Independent Office for Police Conduct—IOPC—while barely one in five black people think that it is impartial. This is not good enough, nor is the fact that IOPC recommendations are almost always out of date by the time they are published because it can take years for individual case proceedings to conclude. The proposal for a lessons-learned database is extremely welcome in this context. Nevertheless, a recent independent review made 93 recommendations to improve the IOPC. What steps are the Government taking to implement these recommendations?

Finally, reports as far back as Scarman in 1981 point to the need to urgently address the lack of diversity in policing, to better reflect the communities the police serve. The Home Secretary said in her Statement that she wants to introduce neighbourhood policing, so will the Government commit to ensuring that such reform is used as a platform to address this lack of diversity, so that people in all communities believe that the police are on their side?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to both Front-Bench speakers for their constructive comments and their broad welcome for my right honourable friend the Home Secretary’s Statement in the House of Commons last week. In particular, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, about trust being extremely important is very valid. The whole purpose of the response to the trial last week and to the wider cases, the reviews by Dame Elish and the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, and our general review of accountability, is to make sure that we build that trust in communities. The noble Baroness mentioned that point also.

There was a welcome from both Front Benches for the provisions around anonymity in the legislation, and that is perfectly right. I cannot comment on the court case because the lifting of anonymity was a matter for the court at that time, but it is really important that we review that, and one of the proposals that my right honourable friend has brought forward is to ensure that anonymity is the norm in future.

With regard to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, about the officer himself, the Metropolitan Police, as the employing authority, has a duty of care to the officer. If there are leads regarding any threat to any individual in society the police will follow those up. I think it is best to leave it at that. The noble Lord is right that deaths from police shootings are extremely rare in the United Kingdom but it is still important that we have the accountability mechanism in place. What we are trying to do with the proposals that my right honourable friend has brought forward is to ensure that accountability is balanced. That is why we have lifted the threshold to put it in line with that for ordinary civilians involved in similar incidents. That is part of the rebalancing to make sure that we give support accordingly. That is why we are having a review of the threshold for prosecution as well, which will report to the Government in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, raised the important issue of training. He will be aware that the College of Policing will review training requirements based on this incident following the comments and the Statement from my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. Before I turn to the noble Baroness’s comments, it is important that we reflect again on the key issue that the police deserve our full support on this. Officers who carry firearms do so voluntarily. They put their own lives at risk, potentially, and they take split-second decisions which could result in saving life and preventing incidents and, indeed, threats to their own life. We need to bear that in mind and pay tribute to them because it is a noble task that they undertake on our behalf.

My honourable friend the Member for Liverpool Riverside was mentioned by the noble Lord. It is for her to make her comments and she is accountable for them as a Back-Bencher. What she has articulated is not the Government’s position. She is entitled to her views, as is any Member of Parliament or, indeed, Member of this House. I will leave it at that, if I may.

I hope I have covered the points. We have received part 1 of the Angiolini review. I have met the review chair, Dame Elish Angiolini, and we are encouraging her to bring forward the second part of the review in an appropriate timescale so we can consider the recommendations in due course.

I am grateful again for the broad support on anonymity and threshold changes from the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey. She made the important point about attacks on police. She will know that legislation has been put in place to ensure that attacks on emergency workers are aggravated offences. The police should not only not be attacked but they should be recognised as a having a special role in our society when attacks such as she mentioned take place. She also mentioned training. I emphasise to her that the College of Policing is reflecting on what has happened. I hope that we can have some guidance shortly to bolster the support for police officers in general terms.

I will refer in turn to three particular points that the noble Baroness mentioned. The first point is the accountability review and the possibility of individuals contributing to it. We have had a report from the review; it is a complete document now. Although the review was commissioned by the previous Government, the report has been presented to this Government. We have concluded and have included in the Statements from my right honourable friend the Home Secretary the response we wish to make.

Obviously, we want to have engagement with a range of stakeholders now that the review is completed. The noble Baroness mentioned not just the police but members of the community. I welcome evidence for the accountability review being given to the Government in whichever form individuals or groups want so that that broad spectrum of views can inform the conclusions and the implementation of what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has said.

The noble Baroness mentioned the IOPC and the review of it that took place. She is right to say that there were 93 recommendations for improvements under the Fairfield report, which was commissioned by and delivered to the last Government. There was a response from the last Government in March 2024. I am keen to ensure, as are Police Ministers and the Home Secretary in the House of Commons, that the recommendations are undertaken and delivered. Work is under way to implement the majority of the recommendations and obviously I will report back to this House. If the noble Baroness wishes to table a Question in a couple of months’ time, we can certainly give an update on the implementation of the recommendations that have been accepted.

The noble Baroness also mentioned the Home Secretary and police diversity. It is certainly extremely important, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, mentioned, that the police reflect the community they serve. That means not just people of colour but people with a range of sexual preferences, backgrounds and other things. It is really important that the police have the confidence of the community they serve. That is why, particularly as we go forward with the new model of neighbourhood policing that my right honourable friend wishes to introduce, we should involve people from all backgrounds to reflect the community they serve. Without that confidence, information will not be forthcoming to police officers and they will not understand the communities they operate within. We share the joint enterprise of ensuring that people outside the law are held to account by the forces of law and order through the Crown Prosecution Service, the courts and, ultimately, if convicted, the justice system. That requires genuine partnership between the community and the police.

I hope I have answered all the points mentioned by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. If so, I will take comments from other Members of the House.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, this order was laid before Parliament on 2 September. I thank the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, which I shall, for the purposes of brevity, call the ACMD from here on in, for its detailed and thorough advice, which has informed this draft order.

The purpose of this draft order is to amend Schedule 2 to the Misuse of Drugs Act, known as the MDA. The draft order will control six substances, as well as introduce a generic definition for nitazenes, as class A drugs and control 16 substances as class C drugs. The draft order will also make an amendment to an existing class B drug to give further clarity by adding an additional common name and its International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry name to its entry.

I turn to 2-methyl-AP-237 and closely related substances. New synthetic opioids remain a current international and domestic public health threat. The ACMD has reported that, as with traditional opioids such as heroin, these can lead to dose-dependent adverse effects, including overdose risks, as well as the high potential for addiction and dependence. One of the 22 substances that I mentioned, 2-methyl-AP-237, was added to Schedule 1 to the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs 1961 following the 66th session of the United Nations Commission on Narcotic Drugs. The UK is a signatory to that—I hope that Members have followed me so far—and we have an obligation to consider its introduction under domestic legislation.

On 27 March, the ACMD issued a report which considered the harms of 2-methyl-AP-237 but also provided advice to Ministers on closely related acyl piperazine opioids. The ACMD also noted the likelihood of further increases in their prevalence, as well as the potential health and social harms associated with specific acyl piperazine opioids. Following the recommendation from the ACMD, this draft order seeks to control four named acyl piperazine opioids and two chemically bridged acyl piperazine derivatives, which include 2-methyl-AP-237, as class A drugs under the MDA.

Under the MDA, there are several named nitazenes—another form of synthetic opioid—that are already listed as class A drugs. However, more needs to be done to reduce the opportunity for criminals to circumvent existing controls by making minor alterations to the chemical structure of these named drugs under control. As such, with this order we are trying to introduce a generic definition for nitazenes that has been recommended by the ACMD. The purpose of this is to future-proof the legislation by covering known and predicted variants likely to present a significant risk to health. The ACMD has already published four updates to address new structurally related compounds under the definition. As such, the draft order is designed to introduce a generic definition for nitazenes as a class A drug under the MDA.

I add for the Grand Committee’s consideration that many known benzodiazepines are used for medicinal purposes in the UK for the treatment of anxiety, insomnia and epilepsy, but more recently there has been an increase in the non-medical use of novel benzodiazepines and related compounds, which have been associated with significant health harms, including an increase in annual numbers of deaths where a benzodiazepine has been implicated.

The ACMD reported on benzodiazepines in 2020 but has since provided further advice on substances that are not controlled under the MDA. In the report dated March 2024—it obviously went to the previous Government—the ACMD recommended 15 benzo- diazepines for control, none of which is licensed as a medicine in the UK. As such, this draft order seeks to control those 15 benzodiazepines and related compounds as class C drugs under the MDA, in line with the ACMD’s advice.

We have seen an increase in the illicit use of xylazine, a non-opioid tranquiliser that has been approved for use in veterinary practice. Xylazine is being used to adulterate illicitly manufactured opioids, such as fentanyl, to produce a mixture known as “tranq” in the USA. In combination with other sedatives, it can dangerously lower a person’s level of consciousness. Again, these are recommendations to me, the ministry and the Home Office, and therefore, via the Home Office, to this House. The ACMD has recommended that the draft order should control xylazine as a class C drug under the MDA.

The order also looks at the entry for methoxphenidine, to add an additional common-use name and its full international standardised name, which will be covered by the order. This does not affect the existing control status of the substance as a class B drug. Instead, it will add clarity on exactly which drug is controlled, given that there are multiple common names.

I turn to the effect of this order. If it is made today, it will make the substances that I have indicated subject to controls under the MDA and associated offences. This will provide enforcement agencies, such as the police, with the appropriate powers to further restrict the supply and general use of the substances that I have mentioned. Unless exempt, these substances are likely also to be subject to the provisions of the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016, on which I fondly remember sitting in Committee in another place for many moons. Once controlled, they will be subject only to the provisions of the MDA and will no longer be covered by the Psychoactive Substances Act.

The MDA contains much higher penalties for the supply of these drugs and provides for a simple possession offence. Those who supply or produce class A drugs could face up to life imprisonment or an unlimited fine, or indeed both. For a class C drug, the penalty could be up to 14 years’ imprisonment or an unlimited fine, or both. Those found in unlawful possession face up to seven years in prison for a class A drug and up to two years in prison for a class C drug, or an unlimited fine, or indeed both.

Therefore, if this order is made, another statutory instrument will have to be introduced later, via the negative resolution procedure. This will seek to make amendments to the associated legislation, namely the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001 and, if necessary, the 2015 misuse of drugs designation order. This negative statutory instrument will seek to schedule and designate these substances to ensure that they are appropriately available for legitimate use, which is important for this House to know and consider.

Although all these substances, and the generic definition of nitazenes, have been identified as having no recognised medicinal use in the United Kingdom, xylazine remains a veterinary medicine. As such, this will be the only substance placed under Part 1 of Schedule 4 to the MDR, to enable its continued legitimate use. All others will be listed as Schedule 1 drugs and will require a Home Office-approved licence for research and other special purposes. It is the Government’s intention that these amendments will come into force on the same date as this affirmative order in due course early next year.

I hope that I have not surrounded noble Lords with too much information or too many acronyms, but it is important to note that this draft order encompasses a number of recommendations, all of which have been made by the ACMD following detailed and independent assessment of the harms associated with these substances. Noble Lords will know that drugs can ruin lives and continue to affect society as a whole. This Government are committed to protecting the public against such dangerous substances and ensuring that appropriate controls are in place. I hope that the Grand Committee will agree with the Home Office’s recommendations and this draft order. I beg to move.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, we accept the recommendation of the advisory council and support the tightening of these regulations. I shall add a couple of comments. In relation to synthetic opioids, given the continual emergence of new individual nitazenes, we are in favour of introducing a generic control for these substances. They can be much more potent than heroin, leaving users at a particularly high risk of accidental overdose. Nitazenes have already cost lives in the UK, and although there is little local evidence of the impact of the other six synthetic opioids named in the order, the potential harm they could wreak is abundantly clear, given the high risk posed for addiction and fatality, as outlined by the Minister.

The need to keep up with organised crime’s ability to synthetise new varieties of opioid is crucial at a time when the UK and European markets are especially vulnerable to their influx, given the noted drop in the supply of heroin and fentanyl. The market is shifting as people seek alternatives, so it is highly likely that the substances named will become much more prevalent. The advisory council’s report calls the individual controlling of these six named synthetic opioids “a short-term approach”. Will the Government consult on the introduction of a generic definition for these substances similar to that for nitazenes?

I also have real concern about the UK’s ability to detect these new substances in a timely fashion. I note that screening and chemical testing for them is extremely limited, that many laboratories do not have the resources routinely to check for them and that they are often not incorporated into police drug tests. Given the damage that we have seen synthetic opioid addiction wreak on parts of the USA, it is of the utmost importance that we have all the warnings we can get of what is emerging on the UK market and where.

The importance of this is underlined by another of the substances we are dealing with today, xylazine. The first UK death in which it was implicated came to light only thanks to the vigilance of a toxicologist who detected it at postmortem because they decided to investigate what they thought were strange results. Internationally, heroin and synthetic opioids such as fentanyl are increasingly being cut with xylazine, and we know it is increasingly present in fatal overdoses in the US where in some states it is present in more than one-quarter of all drug deaths, yet because xylazine is not included in standard UK drug testing we do not know how widespread its use is here. It is a not a nice drug. It leaves people like zombies and its continued use rots their skin from the inside. Back in 2022, there was also apparently no way of recording it in the UK drug deaths database. Is this still the case? Will the Minister address my wider concerns around testing?

The Liberal Democrats do not believe that criminalising individuals for drug possession is the answer, and we will continue to call for a better public health response to tackling the drugs crisis. Will the Government make any additional funding available to enable the consistent national implementation of pre-arrest and pre-prosecution police drug diversion schemes?

Police: Firearms Officers

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Doocey

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend that it is in the interests of society as a whole, and of both the community and officers, that when difficult decisions are taken around charging following killings by police officers, these matters are resolved as speedily as possible. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is reflecting on that; she and I will report to both Houses and consider those matters further.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, for any family to lose a child is truly tragic, but it is absolutely dreadful to lose a child in such circumstances. When you add to this the deep distrust of the police in some communities, this can lead to all sorts of problems and suspicion. The police must never be above the law, but neither should they have to wait two years for a jury unanimously to find them not guilty of such a serious charge that has been hanging over them and their family. The situation is appalling. What steps are the Government taking to fix the criminal justice system, which is broken on all levels?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for her question. An individual lost his life in this circumstance. The jury made a decision based on the evidence before it. That is not to take away from the fact that an individual lost their life and that that has a big impact on the family. There has also been a major impact on the police officer who has been charged with, and now acquitted of, the offence initially suggested by the CPS. How long that takes is a valid question and I understand why the noble Baroness raised it. We will look at that in due course.

The noble Baroness said that the criminal justice system is broken. It has many challenges but this Government have not had stewardship of that system for the last 14 years. I did, in part, when I was a Minister in the previous Labour Government. There are challenges now about timing and a range of issues, which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice will be examining. Issues that relate to the Home Office and the matters before us in the Question from the well-versed and experienced noble Lord, Lord Hogan- Howe, will be examined in due course.