School Exclusion: Timpson Review

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The noble Lord is right: this is an immensely complex area. Trying to unpick it and come up with a coherent way of dealing with all the issues that spring from it is very difficult. For example, Afro-Caribbean children have a substantially higher chance of being excluded than white working-class children, but we are not clear why. That is just one example.

On children understanding the values of our society, that is why we have worked so hard on the relationship and sex education legislation; we were able to bring that through with the support of this House very recently. That will help to reinforce the values that children should learn. Equally, we are trying to tackle that with the work we are now doing on the consultation on home education and children who are not in school. All these things conflate and our job is to try to bring together a package of initiatives that will improve the outcomes for these very vulnerable children.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, did the Minister read the article in the Times a few weeks ago about children who come from dysfunctional homes? I have recently had dealings with a young man, a 13 year-old, who ticked every single box in that article. He had been suspended from school, put into isolation and blamed for his condition. He was behaving badly at school. Fortunately, he has a cousin who took him in hand during the Easter holidays and showed him he was loved. He was just seeking love and attention. His mother used him as a lackey and a boot-boy; she did not care whether he went to school, or what he wore there, or whether he was fed. He did not sleep properly and when he went to stay with the cousin at the weekend, all he did was sleep. It is very important for school staff—teachers in particular—to understand the handicaps that these children have to face before they punish them. It is not their fault.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The noble Countess, Lady Mar, is absolutely right. Last week, I visited Christ’s Hospital School in Sussex. I do not know if noble Lords are familiar with it, but it is a boarding school where about 70% of the pupils are in receipt of some sort of means-tested bursary. They spoke about a girl there who I will call Anna, who is 16 years old. She came from a very broken home and does not want to see her parents again. She is a potential Oxbridge candidate. She has nowhere to go in the holidays and, because of the complexity of safeguarding rules, she cannot stay with one of the teachers in the school, so she has to stay in a YMCA hostel. I felt that was very dispiriting. It gives a snapshot of just how complex the areas we are dealing with are. We are doing all we can to try to help; that is my main reason for being in this job. It is the children who are most disadvantaged who need our help the most.

Schools: Mental Health Support

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, frequently children with ME are diagnosed as having a mental health problem at school, which leads them into child protection proceedings. Can the Minister please ensure that the people responsible are aware of the fact that ME is not a mental health condition so that these children are not treated as mental health patients?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, that is the reason why we are rolling out mental health training in schools. Since April last year, we have already trained 1,300 teachers across 1,000 schools to increase awareness of subjects such as the one the noble Countess raises.

Schools: Outdoor Classroom Day

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Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we have recently initiated a consultation on personal, social and health education. The call for evidence closed on 12 February and we expect to consult on draft guidance by the summer of this year. I will certainly take on board the comments of the noble Baroness to ensure that we are including such useful things as she suggested.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister briefly mentioned care farms. Does he agree that they are an ideal way of encouraging children who have become disaffected with school and, indeed, disaffected with society, bringing them back into society when they are not suited to desk learning? They can learn through such things as looking after animals, growing plants and working in forestry. This is an ideal way of bringing them back from the desert they have found themselves in.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The noble Countess is correct. Preparing for these Questions is always a somewhat anxiety-inducing exercise, but it is a way to learn about how Britain works. I admit that a week ago I had never heard of care farms and now I discover that there are 230 in England and that some 300,000 children are visiting them. We have committed to trebling that number of children. There is strong evidence to show that they can help children with mental issues; they can help to improve mood, and reductions in depression and anxiety can flow from these farms, so I was hugely encouraged to discover them.

Schools: Gardening

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Monday 24th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

The noble Baroness has wandered slightly off my brief, but I will take this back. Of course, the Government are developing a 25-year environment plan to achieve our manifesto commitment to be the first generation to leave the natural environment of England in a better state than we found it.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, there is an amazing pool of ignorance among children and young people as to where their food comes from. I am not talking about vegetables in this case but milk, eggs, cheese and meat. In most cities there are now city farms, and farms are very willing to accommodate children and young people to show them where their food comes from, so would the Minister encourage this practice?

[Lord Nash]

Most certainly. It is absolutely essential that children are taken out of their environment. I know that there is now Oasis’s city farm in Waterloo. There is also a very good organisation called Jamie’s Farm which a number of schools send children to so that they learn about farming, crop growing and animals and vegetables.

Schools: Substance Abuse Education

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Monday 2nd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I agree with my noble friend—it is very unfortunate terminology—but I do not think that our determination is any different.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, many young people in schools have parents who are already drug abusers. Is any special pastoral care—and, in particular, guidance—given in schools to children of these parents?

[Lord Nash]

I mentioned the troubled families programme. Families affected by substance misuse are at the heart of our drugs strategy, which commits to support those with the most complex needs. I think it is true that the troubled families programme has been extremely successful.

Academies: Special Educational Needs

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Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that virtual academies provide a very valuable service for children who are unable to attend school by giving them online and blended learning? Perhaps I may also say how grateful I am to his department for incorporating this in the latest Bill.

[Lord Nash]

The noble Countess is quite right in that regard: for certain pupils, virtual learning is very appropriate.

Special Educational Needs and Disability Code of Practice: 0 to 25 years

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Monday 28th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Nash]

Of course, they have redress through the internal procedures of their college, but I will undertake to look at the noble Lord’s point carefully.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess of Mar) (CB)]

My Lords, it might be helpful if I tell noble Lords that there is no need for them to say “Before the noble Lord sits down” in Grand Committee. The only time that one uses it is at Report stage.

Motion agreed.

Children and Families Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Tuesday 28th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Countess of Mar]

51: Clause 73, page 51, line 1, at beginning insert—
““alternative education provision” means education arranged by local authorities for pupils who, because of exclusion, illness or other reasons, would not otherwise receive suitable education; education arranged by schools for pupils on a fixed-period exclusion; and pupils being directed by schools to off-site provision to improve their behaviour and education provision can include online and blended learning.”

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I realise that this amendment has already been debated, but unfortunately Mother Nature took a different idea into her head and kept me away from the House for three weeks. I am very concerned that children who are on the school roll but who, for one reason or another, have been unable to attend school are not being provided for in the code which the Minister kindly sent out. I was assured by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and by the officials, that provision for online and blended learning would be included in the code, but I cannot find them anywhere there. I would like to know what is happening.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I support this amendment and I thought I would say that to give the Minister time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness. The answer to the noble Countess’s question is that it will be. After Report, we plan to put it into Third Reading. I am very happy for her to discuss that further with officials so that we are satisfied on that point.

[The Countess of Mar]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I am pleased to have had it made clear. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 51 withdrawn.

Children and Families Bill

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Tuesday 17th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, unfortunately my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham cannot be in his place to speak to his Amendment 18, and he has asked me to do so on his behalf.

He tabled this amendment to try to ensure that, alongside the recognition that speech, language and communication needs are special educational needs for an increasing number of children and young people in this country, speech and language therapy retains its status as a special educational provision. This is important for two reasons. First, under the new SEN system, parents of children with EHC plans can appeal to the Special Educational Needs and Disability Tribunal only if this therapy is recognised as special educational provision. Therefore, it is vital that speech and language therapy, officially a healthcare provision, retains its educational status. Secondly, as originally drafted, speech and language therapy could be left out of an EHC plan on the basis that it is not “reasonably” required.

My noble friend is pleased to see that in Amendment 17A the Government appear to have recognised this; he is therefore pleased to accept the government amendment and for Amendment 18 not to be moved.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I have a simple question about this. Having been sick last week, I may have missed the answer in all the mass of information that usefully comes from the department. Again, it is a question about implementation, as my questions usually are. When anything classified as social care and health becomes an education provision, it will be financed. However, how will it be financed in a college for disabled youngsters where there are myriad therapists, who might be physiotherapists or speech therapists, or where the youngsters may have a residential social care provision in the same place but that is linked to the education? That is rather crucial—almost more crucial than the legislation.

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Moved by

[The Countess of Mar]

25: Clause 27, page 22, line 42, after “needs,” insert “including organisations that provide online or blended learning (or both),”

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, this is a long list of amendments with, the noble Baroness will be pleased to hear, a brief message. The Government are trying to ensure that children with special educational needs have the best education and we are all agreed that that is commendable. The Bill focuses on provision for SEN children and young people who are within mainstream education. This excludes some 100,000 youngsters who cannot have access to the traditional schooling system for reasons of chronic illness, disability, exclusion, relocation of looked-after children, or children who live in a secure environment.

The Government often give the impression that they believe that excluded young people are not interested in learning. As a result, the focus is on mainstream education. At Second Reading, my noble friend Lady Howe of Idlicote highlighted the BIS research paper from January 2013 on the motivation and barriers to learning for NEETs—young people not in education, employment or training. I discussed it further in Grand Committee. It is obvious that it is actually these barriers which make young people feel disillusioned. This leads to their exclusion from the education system and puts them at risk of joining the 979,000 young people who are currently on the NEETs register. These young people cost the taxpayer about £56,000 a time. It is vital that they are not left behind.

We know that the right support given at the right time can make an enormous difference and helps young people to achieve their personal ambitions. Students who appear to opt out of education do not do so on impulse. There is usually a chaotic background to their lack of engagement that needs to be dealt with sensitively. We must bear in mind when developing an education solution for these vulnerable young people that one size does not fit all. Clause 19 shows clearly that the Government are determined to involve children and their parents in the decisions around specialised education and that they get the right support at the right time. Surely, by allowing parents and children to have direct input into the organisations that could be part of their education provision, the Government would ensure that they have the best provision with the widest range of suppliers, helping them to achieve their objective.

Education provision for those outside the mainstream is often supplied by individual organisations such as Nisai and the Red Balloon project, which have created innovative ways to help those pupils who are currently out of school. Online and blended learning is one such innovative technique that has been utilised by parents to ensure that their children have access to the education they need. I described in Grand Committee the means by which this is achieved so I will not repeat myself. As I said then, this type of learning is an important tool for many parents but is not recognised as part of the framework of education provision for young people with special needs. This means that it cannot be rolled out to help numerous other children. It is available just to those parents who are in the know and can afford to pay. As it stands, money assigned to a pupil or student while inside the mainstream school system does not follow them once they cease to be on the school roll. This means that it is often difficult for them to access the alternative provision that would help them.

If online and blended learning was officially recognised as part of the education provision that can be provided by local authorities, it would become easily accessible and enable the Bill to fulfil its purpose,

“to improve services for vulnerable children .... to ensure that all children and young people can succeed, no matter what their background”.

In addition, the costs make sense. Online and alternative providers can help to save the Government money. Students will no longer need to be taught in isolation for a few hours a week by home tutors. They will join virtual classrooms of 10, with one teacher, and will have access at any time of the day or night. Local authorities, which are under pressure to reduce their costs, will be able to save on other parts of their budgets. For example, I understand that in 2010 Northamptonshire County Council spent more than £6 million on taxis for disabled special needs children, expelled pupils and young mothers. Saving these costs by centralising the use of online and blended learning would enable local authorities to allocate funds to other vital services.

If online and blended learning were to be formally recognised, there need be no fear that anything need be taken away from mainstream education for the majority of children. These amendments are simply about adding a safety net to catch youngsters who would otherwise be drinking at the last chance saloon. I have already used the example of Nisai to highlight the important role of individual organisations which have created imaginative ways to help those who are excluded and produced excellent results. It makes sense that the good work which alternative education providers have been doing for a small percentage of vulnerable young people can be rolled out to reach the most vulnerable in society.

Finally, I stress to the Minister that it is obvious that the use of online learning has support from all sides of the House. We noticed that in Grand Committee. We really need to enter the digital age in this educational field. Virtual education has been used successfully by universities for many years and I am sure that the noble Baroness would agree that it is time that primary and secondary education caught up. Most children are computer literate at a very early age and those who cannot attend mainstream schools would probably enjoy the ability to access educational material in virtual classrooms. I think particularly of the young people who I know best: those who are housebound or bedridden because they have ME. They can take small bites of material at a time and many have had excellent examination results.

I am very grateful for the meeting that I had with officials yesterday. I hope that, as a result, the noble Baroness will look on my amendments kindly and that, even if she is not prepared to see them within the Bill, she will ensure that online and blended learning are included in the relevant codes of practice. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank the noble Countess, Lady Mar, for highlighting this area. She has fought long and hard for those with ME, to whose situation she has made reference. In Committee, my noble friend Lord Nash clarified the Government’s position; that the majority of children and young people are best served by attending a mainstream institution. We had a key discussion on this earlier. We do, however, recognise that for some children and young people mainstream education is not appropriate, as both the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said. The education arranged for these individuals could indeed include the use of online provision as part of a blended package of support. Indeed, I understand that earlier this month, the Nisai Learning Hub was registered as an independent school that will provide alternative provision through a mixture of supported online and face-to-face learning.

Decisions on the use of such provision clearly need to take into account children’s and young people’s academic needs. It is also vital that their social and emotional development is supported, and that their health and safety are protected. Because of that, we believe that local authorities, mainstream institutions or special institutions should remain accountable for these decisions. However, to reinforce the point made by my noble friend Lord Nash in Committee, the provisions in this Bill do not prevent the use of alternative provision, including online and blended learning. I can reassure noble Lords that it can be included within an EHC plan, it can be funded by personal budgets and it can be part of the local offer used to support pupils without an EHC plan.

We appreciate that an underlying aim of these amendments is to highlight the benefits of online and blended learning for certain groups. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, made their case effectively and powerfully. We do not think that legislation is the appropriate vehicle to achieve this aim, but we shall reflect carefully on how the SEN code of practice and statutory guidance on alternative provision can better support informed decisions on this type of provision—decisions that are based on the best interests of the child or young person.

In doing so, we shall take into account the views of those groups facing particular barriers to mainstream education. The noble Countess highlighted some of these. To this end, I understand that my honourable friend the Minister for Children and Families has agreed to meet the noble Countess, Lady Mar, to hear experiences of the support needed for children and young people with ME. I hope that will be helpful to both sides. I should like to acknowledge the work of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in supporting the cause of people with this condition.

I hope I have reassured the noble Countess and the noble Baroness that there is sufficient flexibility within the current arrangements to allow for the use of high-quality alternative provision, including online and blended learning, where it is in the best interests of a child or young person. Where there are restrictions, we believe that they offer vital safeguards in relation to the education, wider development and safety of pupils. We shall, however, look at how guidance can be improved so that decisions on the use of online provision are focused on the individual’s particular needs—that is at the heart of this. I therefore urge the noble Countess, Lady Mar, to withdraw her amendment.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for replying so kindly. I accept her offer to look at the guidance. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, for her very powerful support. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 25 withdrawn.

Children and Families Bill

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Monday 11th November 2013 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford]

My Lords, this is an important amendment. The Refugee Children’s Consortium, a coalition of more than 40 NGOs that are involved in this sphere, is very concerned about this legislation and is looking for changes. Three or four weeks ago, I was with a group of four young people in Cowley in Oxford; 16 years old, three were from Eritrea and one from Somalia. They were so pleased to be at the end of a journey that had taken months, and to have access to education and safety. That was the thing they kept on saying: “We are safe”.

The Children’s Society told me that this is the time of maximum happiness. From that point on, it is all downhill, with 95% of the young people who come there having to go back at the end of a process that in many cases will lead to destitution—the word that we have used quite often. That, of course, has many implications for physical health, as a result of being malnourished and not being able to get access to a doctor. It leads to illegal work, sexual exploitation and all kinds of problems. There must be another way, a more humane and civilised way, of handling vulnerable young people who have all their lives before them. It seems crazy that, at the age of 18, everything should just turn over. Their needs for education and safe housing are basic things. The age of 18 should not be so critical that it makes people destitute. This is a really important amendment and we need to take it seriously. Destitution is not the answer.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, for 21 years I was a lay member of the Immigration Appeal Tribunal. I used to hate it when we had young people of 18 presented to us for deportation. These youngsters had been through school, some of them having come to this country when they were seven, eight or nine years old, but they had no clue how to go through the legal system or get a solicitor—there were free lawyers in those days. It would have been extremely difficult for them to establish a life in their own country again. Many had lost touch with their parents, or their parents had died. They did not know what they would be going back to and, in many cases, did not speak the language. It is incumbent on us—this is maybe part of the social care aspects of the Bill—to see that social services ensure that their immigration status is settled before they are 18, so that when they leave school or are out of the care of the community they know where they stand.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I understand that the way adults in this situation are treated is to wait until there is an order for them to be removed from the country. If they do not comply, all support is removed and they can become destitute from their own choice. However, children turning 18 can be made destitute before they receive the removal instruction. I understand this was not the Government’s intended policy, but it has evolved over time. I hope that is helpful and I look forward to the Minister’s response.