Deforestation in the Amazon

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Wednesday 5th January 2022 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Before we begin, I have some notices that Mr Speaker requires me to read out. I remind Members that they are expected to wear face coverings when they are not speaking in the debate, in line with current Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. I also remind Members that they are asked by the House to have a covid lateral flow test twice a week if coming on to the parliamentary estate. This can be done either at the testing centre in the House or at home. Please also give each other and members of staff space when seated, and when entering and leaving the room.

[Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered deforestation in the Amazon.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. One or two Members present will know that this is not the first debate that we have had on this subject in recent months, and I am grateful to have the opportunity to bring the issue back to the House. It was six months ago that we last debated the future of the Amazon here in Westminster Hall, so why bring the same issue back so quickly? The simple answer is that nothing shows any signs of changing. If anything, the situation is showing signs of worsening, despite the warm words at COP26.

We all know that the Amazon is one of the world’s most important ecosystems, if not the most important. It has been a vital carbon sink and is home to large numbers of indigenous people. Step by step, however, it is being destroyed. It is not the only place in the world where there is a major issue around deforestation, and Brazil is not the only country that faces similar challenges, that is taking controversial decisions or that faces illegal activity, but the reality is that the Amazon is the flagship of forests around the world, and it must be protected for the future.

For many years, it looked as though progress was being made. When I went to Brazil as a Minister and met Ministers there seven years ago, the level of deforestation was at its lowest for decades. It really did seem as though things were moving in the right direction, but I am afraid all that has now changed. Last year, deforestation was at its highest level for 20 years. Despite the Brazilian Government’s commitments at COP26 and the warm words, there is no sign of that ending. Land is being cleared every day for beef production, illegal logging, mining and urban development. Large areas continue to be burned each year to make way for land speculation, and vast numbers of the rarest species on Earth are being endangered as a result.

Why is it time for this House to debate this issue again, and for legislators here to send the strongest possible message to the Brazilians that deforestation must stop? The answer lies in two separate measures that are before the Brazilian Senate and due to be debated there again either later next month or in March. Both would have a further disastrous effect on the Amazon, and it is crucial that the Brazilian Senate steps in to take action to avoid the worst impacts of the legislation. The first measure would further legalise what have been illegal land grabs in the publicly owned part of the Amazon rainforest. The Brazilian Government control an area of the rainforest that is more than twice the size of France. Under Brazilian law, where logging is permitted on this land, it has to be carried out in a sustainable way. However, the reality is that over the years, there have been numerous illegal seizures and invasions of parts of that land, with huge areas being cleared for agriculture.

Brazilian law previously permitted the regularisation of such invasions that took place before 2011. Any subsequent invasion has been a criminal act, and the obligation is to restore the land to forest management, but the measures before the Brazilian Parliament are close to moving that deadline forward, from 2011 to 2017—six years later. That will effectively except a huge number of further illegal activities, and it will expose forest areas that are illegally occupied to further clearance. This will have the real-world effect of exposing of millions of hectares of forest to further clearance. The measure being considered also reduces the checks and balances on such occupation. In reality, this means that someone can claim responsibility for and ownership of an area without even being in that area. Environmental groups and researchers are warning that, in total, the measure could lead to the deforestation of up to 16,000 sq km of the Amazon over the next five years.

The second measure before the Brazilian Senate changes the country’s laws on environmental impact assessments, so that it will no longer be a requirement to analyse and mitigate indirect environmental impacts of a new project—the result being to make it much easier to build new roads through some of the most important areas of the Amazon. That leads to further deforestation, as it opens up previously inaccessible areas to illegal logging, mining and other activity that creates forest clearance. The evidence to support this looks incontrovertible to me; the research has demonstrated a clear link between road building and deforestation, with almost all previous deforestation taking place within 5.5 km of an official or unofficial road.

More worrying still, the measure creates an automatic self-licensing system, which allows applicants to self-declare that they will follow environmental standards, without any checks and balances to make sure that they do. There is a lot of support for small projects—that is probably reasonable—but not for big projects. They are the ones that lead to big impacts on the Amazon. For those major projects, it matters enormously. Taken together, these measures represent a clear and present danger to the future of the Amazon rainforest and its biodiversity.

COP26 may not have delivered all of the Government’s ambitions for tackling climate change, but it was notable for the general agreement to protect biodiversity and ecosystems. Some 141 countries, including Brazil, signed a declaration to work collectively to halt and reverse forest loss and land degradation by 2030, and over £20 billion of public and private funding was pledged to achieve that. The real question is whether those 141 countries, which control almost all of the world’s forests, will deliver on that commitment. The biggest question of all is whether the Brazilians, who control most of the world’s most important forest—the Amazon—will change course and act to prevent it from disappearing.

It is all very well countries having a commitment to end illegal deforestation by 2028 if they get there, but it is pretty pointless if it is preceded by five years of slash and burn—a wave of further deforestation that destroys tens of thousands more square miles of what is the world’s most important ecosystem. The evidence shows that clearing land for agriculture often only brings temporary benefits to agriculture anyway. Land in the Atlantic forest, which was Brazil’s other major forest, is now often degraded and of poor agricultural quality, so cutting down trees does not always create fertile land for the future.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point, and he knows very well the world of agriculture. Smart land management could give Brazil a higher quality agricultural resource without chopping down the Amazon. That is what it needs to achieve.

This is an important moment for Parliament to send a message to our counterparts in the Brazilian Senate and the Chamber of Deputies on this issue. I hope the Chamber of Deputies will adopt any amendments that the Senate pushes through next month, and I hope the Senate, when looking at these issues in the next couple of months, will put in place safeguards to stop deforestation. Parliament can send a message to the Brazilian Government, who I know will be following this debate and will get a report back on it. We are a friendly nation and a friend that is not afraid to criticise when it is appropriate to do so, but there is a very strong view in this Parliament that this has to stop. The Brazilians need to be good citizens of the world. They have an asset they need to protect, and they need to do the right thing.

It is in the Brazilian Government’s interests to do so, because more and more countries and people around the world now see environmental protection as crucial for the future of the planet. What that means is that more and more decisions will be taken by consumers, investors and Governments that underline that necessity. A country that chooses not to follow the same path will, step by step, acquire pariah status. The UK has already legislated to ban forest risk products from illegal sources. Other countries are strengthening their legislation, too, and I think there will be more change on that front.

Major buyers of agricultural products are also having to review their supply chains to ensure that the purchases they make come from sustainable sources. Major retailers use earth observation data from satellites to track the origins of their purchases. Sustainable food labelling—something that I have championed in this House—will inevitably come, either through regulation or simply by the choice of the retailers themselves. Customers will choose not to buy products that come from unsustainable sources.

Then there is the investment issue. International investment institutions are under increased pressure from their investors to provide green investment routes and to walk away from those that are not sustainable. A number of pressure groups have highlighted major financial institutions that continue to fund projects in places such as the Amazon that damage the environment, and their investors are not going to put up with this for much longer. They are already under intense pressure to stop doing that. That pressure will grow and grow, and they will have to walk away from those projects. The reality is that countries that simply ignore international pressure to protect their own ecosystems will lose investment in the future.

Then there are trade agreements, which will increasingly require commitments on environmental improvements. I expect, and strongly support and urge the Government to consider, the introduction of punitive tariffs on forest risk products from countries that ignore international pressures and continue to destroy vital ecosystems. I say to Ministers: there can be no question of this Parliament backing a trade agreement with Brazil while extensive forest clearances in the Amazon continue. I urge them and the international community to set out detailed plans for how they will impose punitive tariffs on those forest risk products if countries where the risk of forest clearance is great do not take action to stop it happening. The commitments made in Glasgow must be met.

There will of course be those who argue that taking this kind of action in the western world will be pointless if the huge and growing Chinese market for agricultural produce remains in place and if the Chinese do not participate with similar measures. However, that is not a reason for us to stand aside, or not to send those messages and take the action we need to protect the world’s vital ecosystems. We all know, understand and deal with the economic issues and challenges that our nations face, but all countries, in all parts of the world, have to face up to the reality that over the next years we all have a duty to protect our ecosystems and our natural world.

My message to our Brazilians counterparts, in the Senate, the Chamber of Deputies and the Brazilian Government, is this. We know it is tough. We know there are economic challenges. We know that the easiest option is often the most straightforward one to take politically. But in the end, if we destroy ecosystems around the planet, humanity will all pay a terrible price, whether we are Brazilian, British, American, Chinese or whatever. The Amazon is probably the jewel in the crown among all our most important ecosystems. Our friends in Brazil have a historic duty to protect it. Too much of it has already been lost, but in the end Brazil will suffer if it is not protected, because there is a tide of opinion around the world that will punish any country that no longer protects its natural resources.

Brazil is a great country. It is a long-standing friend of the United Kingdom, and good friends are not afraid to tell the truth. I urge the Minister, her colleagues and the Foreign Secretary to do just that in their interactions. The deforestation of the Amazon is wrong and it must stop. There will be a dreadful price to pay, for Brazilians and all of us, if it does not stop.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

The debate will last until 1 pm. I am obliged to call the Front Benchers no later than 12.27 pm, and the guideline limits are 10 minutes for the Scottish National party, 10 minutes for Her Majesty’s Opposition and 10 minutes for the Minister. Then Chris Grayling will have three minutes at the end of the debate to sum it up. Until 12.27 pm, it is time for Back-Bench contributions, and there are four very distinguished Back Benchers seeking to contribute, starting with Kerry McCarthy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

When we prepared the ANPS and when the Airports Commission prepared its recommendations, it was done in the context of the recommendations of the Committee on Climate Change. We have continued to work with the Committee on Climate Change, and I am confident that we will deliver that expansion and continue to fulfil our obligations to reduce carbon emissions and move towards what was set out this morning.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T3. The new east midlands train franchise is likely to increase capacity southwards from Kettering, but will it improve connectivity north on the midland main line? The previous Labour Government cut our half-hourly service northwards and it is about time that we had it back.

Seaborne Freight

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 11th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Dear oh dear, they keep trying, don’t they? We have hundreds of civil servants across Whitehall working on no-deal preparations to make sure that we are ready in case it happens. I am clear that we do not want no-deal, but we are taking the necessary precautions. The problem is that the Labour party does not believe that should be happening.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

With regard to no-deal preparations, will the Secretary of State confirm to the House, once again, that we have signed the common transit convention, which means that import duties and customs declarations do not have to be sorted out until goods arrive at their final destination? In his reply, will he also mention that the mayor of Calais has said that Calais will be open for business even in the event of no deal?

[Chris Grayling]

Both of the points made by my hon. Friend are absolutely correct. My view is that the common transit convention solves many of the problems. We cannot be 100% certain, because we have not had confirmation from the French yet about how they would manage border posts in Calais, notwithstanding the common travel convention, but he is absolutely right that it should enable trade to flow through smoothly. I have been clear in saying regularly that I expect those ports and the tunnel to operate pretty much normally, but we have contingency in place just in case that is necessary.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 10th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I agree with my right hon. Friend. The reality is that it is all well and good Labour Members saying, “We don’t want no deal,” but then they are going to vote against the deal. They have not come up with any credible alternative plan, so I am afraid I take with a very large pinch of salt most of what the Labour party says at the moment.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm to the House that the Government have signed the common transit convention, which means that, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, customs declarations and import duties, as now, will be required to be paid only when the goods arrive at their final destination?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

This is really an issue for the Spanish and Irish Governments; it does not affect British Airways at all, as it will be covered by the transitional arrangements as well as by the international agreements we have in place. It is an issue for Iberia and for Aer Lingus, which will clearly want to carry on flying within the European Union.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I declare my interest as a member of Kettering Borough Council. What further progress is being made by the roads Minister and his team towards tabling the statutory instrument to facilitate the decriminalisation of parking in Kettering?

Seaborne Freight

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

As I say, the Government do not aspire to a managed or an unmanaged no deal—we want to secure a deal—but it is not responsible not to prepare for all eventualities.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I commend the Secretary of State for recognising that it is absolutely in the national interest to make preparations for a no-deal Brexit, not least because it strengthens our negotiating hand, even at this late stage. Will he tell the House what the common transit convention is, not only for the benefit of the House but in particular for the benefit of those on the Opposition Front Bench, and explain how it will mitigate the worst effects of impeded traffic flows in the event of no deal?

[Chris Grayling]

The common transit convention is the international agreement by which trade flows across multiple countries. It has already been announced that in leaving the European Union the United Kingdom will remain part of that convention, which will play a significant part in ensuring that trade flows freely in all situations. None the less, we need to make sure that we cannot get blockages at key ports, and that is what we are working to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 1st March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I echo the hon. Lady’s comments about those who are working hard to keep the transport system open today; we are very grateful to them all. In a week when the Labour party has already had issues with its use of statistics, she should look up the official statistics from the independent Infrastructure and Projects Authority, which show that planned central Government spending is higher in the north than it is in the south.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I am sure that we could spend more Government money on transport in the east midlands, particularly in Northamptonshire, and especially in Kettering. The new franchise for the midland main line is currently being negotiated. Will the Secretary of State ensure that Kettering’s rail services are better after the franchise is awarded than they are now?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend, who is a strong champion of Kettering, will be delighted to know that the expansion in capacity to Corby means that there will be a much better commuter service in the mornings and evenings through Corby down to Kettering, and to Wellingborough and beyond. That is one of the benefits of the biggest investment in the midland main line since the 1870s.

Rail Update

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

All I can say, again, is that this railway line is well used and has seen an increase in passenger growth and customer satisfaction—it is the highest-rated railway in the country. I never want to see fares go up, but pay rises happen each year and there are costs to meet. Therefore, I am not offering a cut in fares, but we will operate a tight regime around the franchise to make sure it is not abused.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

May I thank the Rail Minister for agreeing to meet the formidable Kettering rail users group this coming Wednesday in his office? They are going to bring with them constructive proposals for how the rail service to and from Kettering might be improved. May I urge the Secretary of State to recognise that Kettering is the most northerly junction from London between the Corby-to-St Pancras service and the midland main line itself? Thus, Kettering’s status during the next franchise should be enhanced.

[Chris Grayling]

Both my hon. Friend and the Kettering rail users group are powerful advocates for Kettering. I am sure they will be pleased by the investment going in. I was on the line the other day, and I could see all the engineering work taking place north and south of Kettering. There will be much better train links into London and, importantly, far more seats at peak times from Kettering, and we will be looking carefully at how we can ensure that passengers from Kettering have the best possible experience.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 18th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

There has been absolutely no change to any part of the terms of that franchise; as of today, there is absolutely no change. It is business as usual. I have set out in this House the challenges, but as of today, to be clear, nothing has changed—neither the service specification nor the contracts for franchise.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Will the rail Minister be kind enough to agree to meet the Kettering rail users group to discuss how rail services might be improved to and from Kettering?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 30th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Crossrail is of course a massive investment in transport in London. It is not a TfL project; it is a joint project between my Department and TfL that is designed to improve the lot of passengers both inside and outside London. It will make a real difference to the south-east.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T7. The central forecast of the Office for National Statistics is that the population will hit 70 million by 2029—just 12 years’ time—which is up by 5 million from today and represents an increase of 8%. What is the Department’s estimate of growth in the number of vehicles over that same 12-year period? Given that our superb roads Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), is enthusiastic about the design of our road network, how will his enthusiasm help to meet that challenge?

Rail Update

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

There is nothing like trying to shoehorn every issue into one question, is there? The simple reality is that back in the 1990s our railways were in a state of decline—routes and stations were being closed, and there was even a plan to turn Marylebone station into a coach station. That was the reality of the days of British Rail. In the past 20 years, we have seen new trains, new routes and double the number of passengers. The problems today are the problems of success, not failure. That is why the approach in today’s statement is the right one. It is not designed to tear everything up and start again; it is designed to evolve the railways so that they are better placed to deal with the challenges that result from success.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

The last Labour Government halved the mainline northbound service from Kettering from a half-hourly service to an hourly service, but since then the significance of Kettering on the railway network has increased: there are now more passengers; it is effectively the hub between the commuter service to Corby and the main line northwards; and it is now to be the interface between the electrified part of the line and the diesel-operated part of the line. Will my right hon. Friend agree that Kettering would therefore be the ideal base for the new train and track operating team?

[Chris Grayling]

Kettering is a fine town and a well represented constituency, and I can absolutely understand the case that my hon. Friend and Kettering would make for its hosting the operating team. He is absolutely right that it is at the heart of the midland main line. It might have some competition from Derby and others, but he makes a strong case.

Monarch Airlines

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 9th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We have the advantage of having legislation before Parliament at the moment. If there are short-term measures that we could take, we would certainly be open to doing that, but I do not want us to rush into doing something without doing the ground work properly. We need to look carefully at what has happened, learn the lessons and make any modifications necessary. I assure the House that that is what we will do.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

We should give credit where credit is due; it has been a simply remarkable achievement to repatriate such a large number of passengers in such a short period, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, his Department and the CAA on putting this together. Here we are on the first Monday back after the conference recess, and we could have been faced with having 110,000 British citizens stranded overseas. Instead, thanks to his actions, 80% of them are already back and the rest can be confident of coming back on time.

[Chris Grayling]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those kind words. They are a tribute to the work done by people right across Whitehall—nine different Departments and organisations were involved—by those who have gone out to man the departure lounges at airports around Europe and by the people operating the airline. This has been a fantastic effort, they have done a brilliant job for all of us and I am very grateful to them.

Rail Infrastructure (Train Operating Companies)

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 6th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady talks about political experiments; a political experiment would be implementing a business plan that I did not judge delivered substantial improvements to passengers, and that involved the biggest shake-up of the railways in the south-east since the 1920s. That is a risk that we do not need to take. We can deliver improvements through partnership, but we must remember that that partnership is not just about London; it is about Kent. It is a partnership that involves passengers on different parts of the routes. We need to design a franchise structure that delivers improvements for everyone.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Passengers on the diesel-operated East Midlands Trains franchise from London to Kettering, who already experience some of the most expensive fares per mile in the country, often have delays to their service, not because of anything that East Midlands Trains has done, but because of Network Rail problems with the overhead lines coming out of St Pancras for the Thameslink service. That often happens at Luton and Bedford as well. Will the Secretary of State ensure that East Midlands Trains, Thameslink trains and Network Rail are among the first to set up these joint operating arrangements, because that would be greatly welcomed by my Kettering constituents?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that will be the case; that is one of the franchises that is coming up to be let. Big improvements are needed on that route. One of the other things that is unsatisfactory about the service for his constituents in Kettering is that in the mornings, they have to pile on to crammed inter-city trains from much further north in the east midlands. What we aim to deliver by 2020 is a better inter-city service and, for the first time, a proper dedicated commuter service to people from Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough and further south.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 17th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Absolutely, but that does not apply only to the steel industry. I believe that HS2 is a great engineering project for the United Kingdom, and I was pleased to note a substantial British presence in the first set of contracts that we announced this week. I have made it very clear that the firms that hope to participate in this project should expect to leave a skills and expertise footprint behind in the United Kingdom, and that those that fail to do so should not expect to find themselves at the front of the queue when it comes to contracting.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

On the midland main line, East Midlands Trains often gets it in the neck for train delays when often the responsibility is failures by Network Rail. Will the Secretary of State and the rail Minister design a rail compensation scheme that sends the correct signals to Network Rail to raise its game?

HS2 Update

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I hope I am a lot happier just after 2.30 this Saturday afternoon than the Secretary of State, who knows my allegiance in this matter.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Midland main line electrification has a better benefit-cost ratio than any other electrification scheme and a better benefit-cost ratio than HS2. For a fraction of HS2’s cost, it would deliver momentous line speed and capacity improvements for towns across the east midlands, including Kettering. Will the Secretary of State use this opportunity to commit to fulfilling the Government’s pledge to complete the electrification of the midland main line by 2023?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend will be aware that work has already started on the electrification process that will, in the next stage, go as far as Corby, as well as—this tends to be seen rather as the poor relation—on track improvements and extra tracks passing up through his constituency to Corby, which will enable us to have much faster trains and much more capacity. My goal is to deliver faster journey times and extra capacity by 2020—long before the date he mentioned.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 15th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Chris Grayling)]

First, I thank the Scottish National party and others for their kind words of welcome to me and the new team. It is great to be back in the transport brief after a decade. I am very proud that my first actions as Secretary of State were to give the go-ahead for the expansion of London City airport and to visit the Bombardier factory in Derby to announce a £1 billion new train order for a service that is essential to this country. I am grateful to all the people throughout our transport network who are making it a success across most of the country.

[Mr Hollobone]

As they do not know, will the Government count the mileage of residential roads that remain unadopted by local highways authorities, including a large and growing number in Kettering, and ensure that no residential road remains unadopted after 10 years?

[Chris Grayling]

That is an issue that I have experienced in my own constituency. It is not acceptable. I will happily meet my hon. Friend to talk about the situation in Kettering and how we address it.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 30th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

First, I express my good wishes to the hon. Gentleman after his change of role this week. I am sure that in due course he will return to his position as shadow Scottish Secretary. I pay tribute to him for the bravery he has shown. The Government’s position is that we have to negotiate carefully a way out of the European Union. Of course, until we have done so—until we have left the European Union—we carry on making contributions as normal.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

May we have a debate in Government time on the involvement of celebrities in politics? On referendum night a week ago, the pro-remain American actress, Lindsay Lohan, in a series of bizarre tweets, slagged off areas of this country that voted to leave the European Union. At one point she directed a fierce and offensive tweet at Kettering, claiming that she had never heard of it and implying that no one knew where it was. Apart from the fact that it might be the most average town in the country, everyone knows where Kettering is. It is famous as the home of Weetabix breakfast cereal, and Cheaney and Loake shoes, and Kettering Town football club has scored more goals in the history of the FA cup than any other football team in the country. Will my right hon. Friend support my invitation to Lindsay Lohan to come and switch on the Christmas lights in Kettering this Christmas, thus redeeming her political reputation and raising money for good causes?

[Mr Speaker]

In my mind, Kettering is principally famous for the hon. Gentleman.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 9th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is always a great disappointment when we hear about local authorities—all too often Labour authorities—that are not innovative enough when it comes to dealing with financial pressures. There are some great councils around the country that are dealing with those pressures in a thoughtful way, pooling resources with neighbours and avoiding the cuts to front-line services that the right hon. Lady describes. I would simply ask her to urge her local authority to look for those examples and ensure that best practice keeps those services in Hull.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

The Leader of the House has just confirmed that it is the policy of Her Majesty’s Government to encourage Turkish accession to the European Union. Indeed, we are paying £170 million a year to help Turkey and four other applicant countries join. In the borough of Kettering there are about 5,000 migrants from eastern Europe, from a population of 72 million, 12 years after accession. Given that the population of Turkey is 76 million, that means that the people of Kettering face the very real prospect of having at least 5,000 Turkish migrants 10 or 12 years after Turkish accession—something that would transform the borough of Kettering. May we have an urgent statement from the appropriate Minister about why on earth we are spending £170 million a year on promoting this madness?

[Chris Grayling]

I know that my hon. Friend feels passionately about these issues and is making these points during the course of the campaign that he is part of. There will be an opportunity next week in this House to debate matters related to the European Union, and I am sure he will also take advantage of that opportunity to raise the issues he has brought up today.

EU Referendum (Privy Council)

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 14th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

All of us who are members of the Privy Council take that responsibility enormously seriously. It is a great honour for us to serve the Crown in that way. However, I simply repeat that my predecessor as Lord President, who is a Privy Counsellor and who also takes that responsibility very seriously, has said that the story is categorically untrue, and that there is therefore nothing to answer for.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

It is quite right that Her Majesty, our sovereign, should have no views on important issues such as the EU referendum. How can it be in any way acceptable for members of Her Majesty’s Government from the Prime Minister downwards to encourage foreign Heads of State to comment on the EU referendum? Does this not demonstrate the fact that the international Bilderberg group is ganging up against the British people?

[Chris Grayling]

I would discourage any foreign leader from entering the debate at the moment. This is a matter for the British people and it should remain so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

3. If he will make it his policy to protect the time available for Back-Bench business debates on the Floor of the House.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

It is for the Backbench Business Committee to schedule the business for the days allocated to it in each Session, and for the Chair to manage the debates when they take place.

[Mr Hollobone]

This afternoon or perhaps late this morning there will be a debate on gangs and serious youth violence, which is an extremely important topic. The Leader of the House will know that this debate was scheduled for an earlier day, but because of urgent questions, statements and other business overrunning for legitimate reasons, there was no time left for that important debate to take place. That situation could have been avoided had the Leader of the House allocated that debate protected time. Using that experience, will he look to protect Back-Bench business on future heavy business days?

[Chris Grayling]

As I have said to the Chair of the Committee in recent weeks, I keep that under careful review. It is certainly the case that the gangs debate moved to today because of a number of other parliamentary events that took place on the original day. However, the Backbench Business Committee has been able to bring the debate back to the House shortly afterwards. and as there are no urgent questions or statements today, there should be a full day available for today’s important debates. I will keep the matter under review, but I will need to be persuaded that things are going badly wrong before we could countenance a change to the way things work at present.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 11th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is difficult for me to comment on the individual case. Clearly, we want people who apply for citizenship to be of good character. However, I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point that if the system has gone badly wrong, somebody should do something about it. The Home Secretary will be in the Chamber for oral questions on Monday week and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman puts that question to Ministers, who I am sure will want to take it up on his behalf.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust on the opening of its new dialysis unit in Kettering? This state-of-the-art, first-class, ultra-modern, world-standard kidney dialysis unit is located in Trafalgar Road, Kettering, near the centre of the town. May we have a statement from the Department of Health listing all the new infrastructure investments in our NHS, which will make a world of difference to the patients who need them?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. I am sure that this investment was a little bit helped on its way by the effective way in which he represents the town of Kettering. He highlights the very real new investments that are taking place in the national health service—new treatments, new equipment—all as a result of the extra funding we are putting into the national health service. The party now in opposition did not want to do that, and the Labour party in power in Wales is not doing it.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 21st January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Changes of this kind would be a matter for detailed discussion in this House. I have not seen what is in the Evening Standard so I cannot tell whether it is a rumour or otherwise. What I would say is if this Government are going to bring forward changes that affect Members of this House, we will set out details to them and listen to them.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Weetabix is a delicious and nutritious breakfast cereal the wheat for which is sourced from farms within a 50 mile radius of the Weetabix factory at Burton Latimer in the borough of Kettering. The agriculture Secretary is there this morning to launch the new great British food unit to promote the export of British foodstuffs around the world. Will the Leader of the House make sure that at all his breakfast meetings, and at all the breakfast meetings arranged by the House authorities, Weetabix is made available?

[Chris Grayling]

Mr Speaker, I am sure that you and I, as members of the Commission that ultimately looks at catering matters, will give careful consideration to that representation. However, we may have to have a two-course breakfast as my hon. Friend will have heard from both sides of the House the call to have a cooked breakfast with black pudding afterwards.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 14th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I know the hon. Gentleman has been a vigorous campaigner on behalf of these gentlemen and their families. After this session of questions has finished, I will pass that message to the Foreign Office and ask it to respond to him. Of course, such situations are much more challenging to address once a court has ruled, because we have to respect the justice systems of other countries, but I absolutely understand the concerns. It may be that these gentlemen choose to appeal, and if they do so I would expect the usual consular support to be made available.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

It has been reported that President Obama will be visiting this country in May, no doubt at the start of his farewell tour. More disturbingly, it has also been reported that he will be invited by the Prime Minister to comment on the merits of Britain staying in the European Union as part of an increasingly desperate attempt to shore up the increasingly threadbare proposals for us to stay in the EU. Will the Leader of the House, as the representative of this House, write to the United States ambassador, not only to welcome President Obama to this country, but to make it clear to the ambassador that the President should not be commenting on very important domestic issues, important to the people of this country?

[Chris Grayling]

I think I can reassure my hon. Friend in that I suspect such a letter is not needed, because I have no doubt that the American ambassador closely follows the proceedings in this Chamber and that the comments of my hon. Friend will be reported to him. I am sure that message will filter back to the Americans.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 7th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. Suffering from the conditions that she describes is enormously disruptive to life and enormously distressing. These matters are devolved not only to the different parts of the United Kingdom, but to local clinical commissioning groups, which take the decisions about how to operate policies in their local communities. Where Members have situations in their constituencies which they think are not right, they need to take those up with local clinical commissioning groups and try to get a change of practice in those communities.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

My constituents in Kettering are outraged that an illegal immigrant from Sudan who broke into this country by walking through the channel tunnel has this week been awarded asylum and allowed to stay here. This sends an appalling signal to the staff at Eurotunnel and our hard-working border staff both in this country and in France. What is the point of intercepting these people if they are going to be given permission to stay? Also, it sends a green light to illegal immigrants from across the world that they might as well give it a go because if they make it here, they will get asylum. May we have an urgent statement from the Home Office on this matter?

[Chris Grayling]

I understand the concerns that my hon. Friend expresses. We have Home Office questions on Monday. Of course, we are subject to international rules on asylum claims and the best way of addressing the pressures is to continue the work we are doing to make sure that the border controls in Calais are secure. We are grateful to the French Government for the way they work collaboratively with us on this. The protective measures at Calais are much stronger than they were a few months ago, but it is a constant battle for our border forces.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We will always do our best to give as much notice as possible, but our prime responsibility, as business managers, has to be to ensure that the Government’s business can be delivered across the Session. We will seek to strike the right balance and provide that information as soon as we practically can.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

5. If he will ensure that debate time for Back-Bench business is safeguarded.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Dare I say that it is Treasury questions next week and the hon. Gentleman is of course able to put that question to the Treasury?

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

3. If he will make it his policy that the House not adjourn for the period covered by the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat party autumn conferences.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 10th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I commend the hon. Gentleman on his work on this matter, on which he is an assiduous campaigner. There will be BIS questions next week, so I suggest he asks either a listed or a topical question to get Ministers to set out the timetable. I will make sure that they are aware of his interest in the matter.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

It is generally accepted that for good government it is necessary to have an effective opposition. All political parties go through leadership traumas from time to time—there is no shame in that—but would it not be a good idea to give the Opposition a debate on the first day back in October? All the new shadow Cabinet members could come to the House to outline their thoughts about the policies they wish to pursue in a debate entitled, “Her Majesty’s Opposition: an alternative programme for government”, and we can find out what the terms of trade will be over the lifetime of the next parliamentary Session.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, but I am afraid that his idea has one big drawback. I am not certain that on the first day back there will be any Labour Members actually willing to serve in the shadow Cabinet, so I do not think it is an option.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 16th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We would obviously want the best possible treatment for every citizen of the United Kingdom. We have arrangements where the health services in the four parts of the UK are managed separately. These are devolved matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is important that we share best practice from the NHS in England to the NHS in the other three countries in attempting to make sure that the best possible treatment is available, but that is of course a matter for the devolved Administrations to decide.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I thank the Leader of the House and you, Mr Speaker, for your quick response in recognising and responding to Members’ concerns about the arrangements in the Division Lobbies.

Allegedly, Kettering is the most average town in England. It is, however, very special to those of us who live there, and its special status has been confirmed by the award of a purple flag for it having a thriving, safe and vibrant night-time economy. That is similar to green flags for parks or blue flags for beaches. May we therefore have a debate in Government time about the importance of provincial town centres, and how best practice from places like Kettering might be rolled out to the rest of the country?

[Chris Grayling]

I am sure that my hon. Friend did not intend to inadvertently mislead the House, but I have to say that no constituency represented by him could possibly be an average town. [Hon. Members: “Hear, Hear.”] I congratulate everyone in Kettering who has worked towards that award. I know Kettering; it is a fine town. It is a great community, and it is a tribute to the strength of its community that it has been marked in this way.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I commend the hon. Lady for the work she is doing on this issue. Of course it is right and proper that energy companies should take into account the pressures that some people in our society are facing. I will ensure that her concerns are drawn to the attention of my colleagues, and I know that she will take advantage of the opportunities that the House provides to continue to raise her concerns.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

My lorry driver constituent Peter Clark, from Desborough, is facing a £2,000 fine because five Vietnamese illegal immigrants were found in the large cement mixer that he was bringing to this country from Italy. When he got to Calais, he asked the French authorities to inspect the open trailer, because he had been unable to secure it. They said that they could not help him because it was too early in the morning, they had no torches and their ladder was locked up. May we have a statement from our Immigration Minister about what Her Majesty’s Government are doing to ensure that the French fulfil their responsibilities in regard to stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into our country?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for not lobbying for Andover. In my view, the job of the Committee is to look at all the options, not to rule any option in or out at this stage. What is of paramount importance is that the solution chosen must enable our democracy to continue to work effectively.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Although my constituents in Kettering would support the cheapest option, which also happens to be the quickest option, of closing down the Palace of Westminster and moving us out, please can we quell all this nonsense about going to different parts of the country and make sure we just go over the other side of Parliament Square to the QEII conference centre?

[Chris Grayling]

I hear my hon. Friend’s view. Of course the possibility of temporary relocation is one of the options that will have to be considered. I have to say that my own view is that we should move out of this place, were we to choose to do so, with the utmost caution and care, and that is not where I personally am inclined to take us.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend represents the great northern town of Warrington. I once stood there as a candidate, and I visited the local rugby league team to watch it play. I want to take this opportunity to wish the English rugby league team the very best when it takes part in this autumn’s world cup. I also wish all those involved in promoting the anniversary—including those going on the walk in a few weeks’ time—the very best in celebrating a sport that has been and continues to be a really important part of our northern communities.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Does the Leader of the House share my concern that the business of the House is being delayed by Divisions taking an unnecessarily long time? It seems to me that the primary cause is the unequal length of the alphabetical queues in the voting Lobbies. A quick analysis shows that there are 199 Members in the N to Z queue and 236 in the G to M queue. Given that the Leader of the House is a G and the Chief Whip is an H, will they ensure that by the time we come back in September, the queue lengths have been equalised? The quickest and easiest way to do that would be to consign the 25 Members whose surname begins with “Mc” to the outer darkness of the N to Z queue.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman really is a most legendary anorak.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 25th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I endorse the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about the dreadful things happening in parts of Iraq and Syria. It is absolutely right and proper that the international community should stand against this and be supportive of those who are resisting that terrible regime, and of course we are playing our part as a nation in doing so. One of the reasons we are having next Thursday’s debate on international affairs is that over the past few weeks I have listened carefully to the comments made by Members on both sides of the House on the need for this and similar issues to be debated. That opportunity will be available this time next week.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Although investigatory powers in Britain and international security are undoubtedly important topics, it is also important that this House debates what everybody else in the country is talking about. Night after night we see on our television screens the wave of human misery coming to our shores from the middle east and north Africa and the problems being caused at Calais. That is what everybody is talking and concerned about, so may we have a full day’s debate on the Floor of the House about Britain’s immigration policy and how we are going to tackle both legal and illegal immigration being too high?

[Chris Grayling]

I recognise that this is a matter of great concern to the public and, indeed, the Government. My hon. Friend will be aware that my right hon. Friend addressed the issue in the House yesterday. What is happening in Iraq and Syria and the crisis in the Mediterranean were two of the key reasons for ensuring that there is a full day’s debate next Thursday—I hope my hon. Friend will take advantage of that—to discuss what we all regard as a crucial issue. What is happening in north Africa and the Mediterranean is frankly shocking.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 4th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That was not a fresh announcement; we set out our plans for childcare weeks and weeks and weeks ago. Simply to repeat things that we have announced weeks ago seems to me to be entirely normal.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is a distinguished occupant of his office, but he is not simply the Government’s representative in this House; he is also the representative of this House to Her Majesty’s Government. What will he do to enforce any breaches of the ministerial code with regard to releasing information to the press before this House hears it first?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I do take that very seriously. I regard myself as the Leader of the House representing all Members. Of course, it is a matter for the Prime Minister to enforce the ministerial code, but as I indicated a moment ago, I have already reminded my colleagues about the importance of making announcements to Parliament.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 4th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The bus Bill will be an important part of our devolution plans and we will be introducing it in the near future. The hon. Lady will have an opportunity in next Thursday’s Transport questions to raise the issue directly with the Secretary of State, and I am sure she will take advantage of that opportunity.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the importance of local arts festivals? The forthcoming weekend sees the first ever Kett Fest, a spontaneous celebration of local arts, culture and music in the town of Kettering. Although supported by the relevant local authorities, it is—rightly—drawing on only a minimal level of public funding, and its success will be almost entirely due to the individual initiative, enthusiasm and endeavour of a large number of public-spirited individuals who are proud of the town in which they live.

[Chris Grayling]

I know that Kettering is a town with a very strong community spirit, and what my hon. Friend describes is this country at its best, with people coming forward to deliver change or events that really bring communities together. It is great to hear of such a good example and one that is not simply dependent on public finance to deliver real community togetherness.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 28th May 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is worth putting on record our sympathies and condolences to the people of Nepal in what we all agree was a terrible series of events. I am pleased that Britain has provided aid support, financial and otherwise, to the people of Nepal, and we will continue to do so. The Secretary of State has just returned from Nepal. She will be in the House to answer questions at the appropriate time and the hon. Gentleman will be able to ask her for more details about the support that we are providing.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

May we have a statement from the appropriate local government Minister on the policy of Her Majesty’s new Government on Gypsies and Travellers? This week Traveller caravans invaded the London Road car park in Kettering, causing massive disruption to town centre residents and workers. Last week, a neighbouring local authority granted yet further planning permission for inappropriate Traveller encampments in the countryside, leading to a further over-concentration of such developments around the village of Braybrooke in my constituency. The previous Government had a consultation on this. May we please have the results of that consultation and early action to ensure that Gypsies and Travellers abide by the same rules that everyone else has to abide by?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I have experienced an unwanted incursion in my own constituency in the past 36 hours. This is a genuine problem for communities up and down the country. Powers exist for both local authorities and the police to deal with incursions quickly and effectively if they choose to do so. A lot of this requires local willpower. I encourage my hon. Friend to put maximum pressure on his local authority and the police to ensure that that happens. He will have the opportunity to raise the Government’s policy on 29 June in Communities and Local Government questions, and I have no doubt that Ministers will take note of his remarks today as well.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

In order to prevent foreign national offenders from committing further crimes in this country, what steps are being taken together with the Home Office to ban them from returning to the United Kingdom once they are repatriated?

[Chris Grayling]

The deportation process should mean that these people are not entitled to re-enter the UK. Of course, the increased sharing of data between European police forces is one way of ensuring that we know who they are before they try to enter the country and that they do not return. My hon. Friend and I share the same ambition of ensuring that people who have committed terrible crimes in other countries simply cannot come to live here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I simply reiterate that we have tried to drive through the necessary change to meet a financial challenge in the most sensitive way possible. The changes that the hon. Lady describes in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 were considered in detail in this House and the other place. Time again I hear from the Opposition Benches that Labour would do things differently, but although Labour Members have said that they will match our spending plans, they have yet to give any sense of what they would do to save money elsewhere.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

How many foreign national offenders are in our prisons, and what steps are being taken to return them to secure detention in their own countries?

Prison Communications

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

On the latter point, I am not aware of that. Of course, it would not be a matter for my Department, because none of the security services falls within it. It is therefore a question that my hon. Friend would have to raise with other Ministers. Certainly, no such surveillance has passed my desk.

On the former point, this matter arose because of the chance spotting of a name on a list during another investigation, following an allegation by a prisoner that did not relate to the calls of Members of Parliament being listened to. It took two goes with the BT telephone records to identify the nature of the problem. This practice has gone unnoticed because it genuinely was not obvious that it was happening and there was no easy way to discover it. It was only when a clue arose that there may be a problem that there was a trail to follow. That is why it has taken time.

[Mr Hollobone]

I appreciate that the investigation will unearth all the details, but going by the information that the Lord Chancellor has, does he think that this is a problem in a few prisons or in 32 prisons?

[Chris Grayling]

It is difficult to be certain, but I suspect that it is not a problem right across the prison estate. We will have to ensure that the standards in the best prisons are spread to those that are not meeting those standards. It is difficult to know at this stage whether it is a matter of inappropriate staff training or just of it being difficult to spot the name of an MP if they have not been identified. I expect that Nick Hardwick will give us that information and enable us to make appropriate changes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely agree, which is why I think that a combination of the efforts that this Government are putting into that—the work being done to increase the number of employment opportunities within prisons; the work being done by the Work programme to help the long-term unemployed, particularly those who have been offenders; and, indeed, this Government’s great success in creating a fast-improving labour market—are all contributing to tackling the problem to which my hon. Friend rightly refers.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

7. Whether the offence of treason is available for use by prosecuting authorities against UK citizens participating in jihad in the middle east.

Prison Overcrowding

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 16th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I assure my hon. Friend that I am well aware of the situation in Wellingborough, and I do not intend to take any steps to dispose of that prison, because it is sensible for us to have reserve capacity available. I have no immediate plans to change the status of Wellingborough from being a mothballed site.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

A prison population of 86,000 would be far nearer 75,000 were it not for the large number of foreign national offenders in our jails. Surely it is possible to negotiate with the high-volume countries, such as Nigeria, Jamaica and Pakistan, for them to take back their offenders. If they will not, we should send them the bill, which is approaching £300 million a year. Will the Secretary of State put this issue at the top of his to-do list to address the issue of the number of people in our jails?

[Chris Grayling]

As my hon. Friend knows, this is a matter of great concern to Ministers. We are also seeking to speed up the formal deportation process through the Home Office. We need to reduce the numbers significantly, but it is proving to be a more stubborn and difficult task than any of us would wish. My hon. Friend should not, however, believe that we have anything other than a clear aspiration to do this. The sooner we can reduce that population, the sooner we can ease some of the other pressures on our prison system, or put in prison one or two other people we might want to see there.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 18th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is impossible to answer that question without knowing the circumstances of the case and without understanding the reasons for what I assume are police actions. I want a justice system that acts appropriately, takes tough action where necessary and treats people fairly, including by giving them a fair trial. When people are found guilty, I want the system to treat them appropriately and punish them accordingly.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

How many foreign national offenders are there in our prisons, and what steps are being taken to return them to secure detention in their own countries?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I put in the original request to the Sentencing Council some months ago. It intends to put this into its work stream for next year and will make recommendations. Separately, I am also looking at the current law. I feel that there is still scope for tightening and I will bring forward my thoughts in due course.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

My constituents Mark and Sue Donnelly lost their 26-year-old son Stephen in a road incident on the A14 to a driver who was twice over the limit. He was sentenced to eight years in prison, which they do not think is long enough, and nor do I, but he was also given a 10-year concurrent driving ban, which they felt was particularly insulting since for most of that time he would be in prison and unable to drive. Will the Secretary of State consider concurrent driving bans to see whether they are appropriate?

[Chris Grayling]

I am rather sympathetic to what my hon. Friend says and I suggest that he and I have a longer conversation about it.

EU Charter of Fundamental Rights

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is clear that there are many things that have united us politically in the past three years where we have done good work for this country but that there are areas—European issues and issues of human rights—where we take a different view. The mature approach in a coalition is to accept that those differences of views exist, to work collaboratively together when we agree and to be honest when we do not. That is what we will continue to do. I will certainly be on the doorsteps at the next general election arguing very strongly indeed for a Conservative approach that deals with many of these issues.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Is there any significance to the fact that there is no Liberal Democrat Minister on the Front Bench while the Lord Chancellor is making his statement?

[Chris Grayling]

Not at all. My Liberal Democrat Minister, Lord McNally, is a first-rate member of our team and has done good work for this Government. However, he is in the other place and is not entitled to sit alongside us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We will, of course, continue to review the impact of the changes we have made to legal aid, which were necessary because of the huge financial challenge we inherited in 2010. If the hon. Lady wants to write to us about the specific case, we will of course look at it.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

How many foreign national offenders do we have in our prisons, and what steps are being taken to send them back to secure detention in their own country?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I hate to correct the right hon. Gentleman, but he talks about people’s entitlement to judicial review since Magna Carta. That took place in 1215—we will be celebrating its 800th anniversary shortly—whereas judicial review was introduced in 1974.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

What is the latest total for the number of foreign national prisoners in our jails and what steps have been taken in recent months to send them back to secure detention in their own countries?

Electronic Tagging

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 11th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

On the last point, it is important to say that we are learning the right lessons. That is why the issue emerged in the first place. The tighter contract management procedures that we are putting in place have revealed shortcomings that took place under a contract that was let in 2005, and information that came to the Department in 2008. The right hon. Gentleman will remember who were in government in those two years. This Government are taking a more robust approach to contract management, and this issue has arisen as a result.

The right hon. Gentleman makes a point about the privatisation of the probation service. We are outsourcing probation to a range of different organisations not linked to today’s situation, and a large number of organisations have expressed an interest, including those from the voluntary sector that have immense skills in this area. I would not countenance a situation in which those organisations are tainted by the actions of two individual companies, or where we allowed a debate about two contractors to taint the reputations of outsourcing organisations that work and do a good job across government.

The right hon. Gentleman made some specific points about the two companies involved. Last night, we put to those companies that we would ask for a forensic audit, at a level that will meet any kind of investigative standards, to be carried out by PricewaterhouseCoopers, one of our leading independent auditors that works on such investigations. I am satisfied about the quality of the investigation it will carry out with Serco, and the management of Serco has accepted that the consequence of that investigation, if dishonesty is found, will be a joint reference to the authorities. To my mind, that audit meets any test we need to address. Unfortunately, G4S has not chosen to accept such an audit, and we have therefore passed the matter straight to the Serious Fraud Office.

I must be careful because this is a sensitive legal process. At this time, I do not have evidence of dishonesty. I have a situation of unacceptable practice, but not of dishonesty, and that is why I have commissioned a detailed forensic audit from those with expertise in such matters. For G4S we have done what people would expect us to do and invited the Serious Fraud Office to rule on the matter.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office. I confirm that the National Audit Office has been aware of this investigation from the start. It is already investigating contracts within Government, and we are liaising closely with it. He mentioned all other contracts, and my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General will today set out his plans to take forward work he has already started to address contract management across Government. The review I have announced led by Tim Breedon, our lead non-executive director, will address the issue raised by the right hon. Gentleman about all contracting with major contractors across the Department, including smaller contractors.

I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman on public safety as I sought to establish that very early in this process. I have seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest that public safety has been compromised. The issue is about people who were recalled to court or to prison but where the charging continued, so I can lay to rest the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns on that point. He also asked about the acceptance of guilt, but, in the legal process, I cannot comment on the position of the companies. They must set that out themselves. I have said that Serco is being constructive and collaborative, and I have set out the process for G4S. I say clearly that there have been failings at the Ministry of Justice that go back over the past decade, possibly longer. Those shortcomings are now being addressed but they should not have happened in the first place and I have indicated that, if necessary, disciplinary proceedings will be undertaken.

These are serious matters. We are entering a legal process and hon. Members across the House will understand that I must be cautious in what I say to avoid compromising legal proceedings. The House should be under no illusion, however, that I am dealing with the issue with the utmost seriousness. We will take all appropriate action and we cannot allow such things to continue unchecked.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

May I praise the strong, expeditious and decisive action taken by the Lord Chancellor in response to this issue, and the way he has co-ordinated the Government’s response with the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, and the Attorney-General? As he indicated in his statement, Whitehall needs to raise its game on contract management. Will he continue to work as closely as possible with our right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General to get this matter resolved at permanent secretary level as soon as possible?

[Chris Grayling]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments and I give him that assurance. Looking back to when the issue first became visible in the Department, it is clear that existing expertise in contract management was not up to the job. Those failings and shortcomings should never have happened, and I intend to introduce measures to ensure that they never happen again.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman needs to realise that the concept of competitive tendering in criminal legal aid was originated by his own party. Now we are hearing the Labour party oppose the things for which it argued for years, and it is typical of this Opposition that they will say one thing when in government, and when in opposition will say something completely different. I am proud to be part of a party that is defending health budgets and taking tough decisions in other areas; the hon. Gentleman is part of a party doing the opposite.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Although legal aid is no longer available for most family litigation, it is still available for family mediation, yet many mediation services have seen their inquiries halve since April because clients are under the mistaken belief that it is caught up in the changes. Given that mediation is often better than litigation, what can the Secretary of State do to advertise the fact?

[Chris Grayling]

I am very concerned to pursue that. I am aware of the issues that my hon. Friend mentions. It may well be down to the fact that there was a surge in cases prior to the legal aid changes that came into effect in April, but I can give him an assurance that this is very much on my radar, and I intend to pursue it.

Rehabilitation of Offenders

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 9th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The answer to that is: as of yet, not exactly, because there will be a bidding process. I emphasise again, however, that that will not be simply about cost, and that quality will be at least as important as cost and the proportion of the contract put at risk. It will not be 100% payment by results because we must pay for orders of the court. I intend the providers to have some of their money at risk so that they have every incentive to perform on our behalf.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

My constituents in Kettering are fed up with repeat offenders, but incensed when those people are foreign nationals. The best way to have fewer crimes committed by fewer people is to ensure that foreign nationals cannot reoffend because after their first offence they are sent home.

[Chris Grayling]

I rather agree with my hon. Friend. He and I both sit on the Eurosceptic wing of the Conservative party, but one thing I welcome within the confines of the European Union is the prisoner transfer agreement. That is being ratified across the EU, and I hope it will soon allow us to send quite a lot of the people he is talking about back to their home countries where they belong.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am not sure whether the hon. Lady has experience of the small claims court, but this plays to the point raised by her hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel). The small claims court is more of a mediation environment than a combative legal environment, and that is a better way of dealing with many of the smaller claims that people need to bring.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Jamaican and Nigerian nationals make up a big proportion of the foreign nationals in our jails. What progress is being made on negotiating compulsory prisoner transfer agreements with Jamaica and Nigeria so that we can send those people back?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend will know that that was a matter of great concern to me in my previous job. None of us benefits from getting decisions wrong and a huge amount of effort has been put into getting them right. Of course, our Department must provide a route for appeals when they are necessary, but I can assure him that a huge amount of effort goes into trying to ensure that we get decisions right first time.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

7. If he will consider increasing magistrates’ sentencing powers from a maximum of six months to a maximum of 12 months for the purpose of making greater use of magistrates’ courts.

Transforming Rehabilitation

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I do not expect this to lead to wholesale redundancies in the probation service. It certainly means a new world for many people in the probation service in being part of the new organisations, new social enterprises and new consortia that will deliver the services. Yes, of course there will be some changes, but this does not involve, suddenly and instantly, mass redundancies in the probation service—that would not be right.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Of the 50,000 prisoners on short-term sentences who are released each year, a growing proportion are EU and other foreign nationals. These people do not deserve rehabilitation; they deserve deportation. Will my right hon. Friend dig deep within the security provisions of the EU free movement directive to ensure that if any EU national commits an imprisonable offence in this country, of whatever sentence length, they are deported on release and barred from returning to this country?

[Chris Grayling]

I agree with every single word that my hon. Friend said. We have far too many foreign national prisoners in our jails. The challenge of returning them, of course, is that there has to be somebody willing to take them at the other end—I am not willing simply to release criminals on to the streets. I absolutely agree that we need to be able to return prisoners as quickly as possible. I intend to do everything I can to use the prisoner transfer agreement, which more and more countries are now ratifying, as much as possible to return offenders to other countries, and to do everything I can, with my hon. Friends in the Home Office, to make sure that they do not come back.

Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Under the proposal to give the vote to prisoners who have received a sentence of either six months or less or four years or less, someone given a very short sentence would be eligible for a postal vote in prison. Of course, whether or not they are given that vote would depend on what Parliament and this House decide.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I am appalled by the lack of legal training for so many of the so-called judges of the European Court of Human Rights, incensed by the Court’s repeated attempts to traduce the sovereignty of the British Parliament, and cognisant of the fact that there would be no Court and no human rights in Europe if this country had not stood alone against Hitler in 1940. My constituents want their MP to vote to ban prisoners from voting, and in that they will not be disappointed.

[Chris Grayling]

We have had one or two early statements of intent from Members, some of which have not surprised me at all. I know that my hon. Friend feels strongly about these matters and is an effective advocate for both his constituency and his point of view on these issues, which I know is shared across the House. As my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) made clear, those views are not unanimous across the House and, therefore, I think that we will have a constructive and lively debate before Parliament reaches its view on the way forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 13th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I will not take any lectures from a party that was responsible for the levels of immigration to this country that we have seen over the past decade. There are now fewer foreign nationals in our prisons than was the case under Labour. I intend to continue the drive both to deport people when they have finished their sentences, and to deport them through prisoner transfer agreements as soon as we possibly can.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend make it a departmental priority to negotiate compulsory prisoner transfer agreements with Commonwealth member countries, especially Nigeria and Jamaica, which seem to be the source of most of the foreign national offenders in our prisons?

[Chris Grayling]

I can give my hon. Friend an absolute assurance to that effect. The prisons Minister—my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright)—and I have met our Jamaican counterparts during the last few weeks. We are focusing our efforts to negotiate compulsory transfer agreements on the countries where the problem is greatest. Of course, what we inherited from the previous Government were voluntary agreements, which, as we all know, have a limited effect.

Atos Healthcare

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Tuesday 4th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I know that this is an issue of great concern to many Members, as it was always going to be. I totally accept that this is a long and difficult process, and I have always said that, both in this Chamber and in the House. I will not be able to respond to every individual point. One or two hon. Members have raised individual constituency cases, and if they write to the Department, I will ensure that it addresses their specific questions.

Let me make one point in relation to a comment made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). He drove to the absolute heart of what we are trying to achieve, and this is an ambition that was and is shared by both the Opposition and the Government. If people can make a return to work, even if it is a different form of work from the one they did before their health issue arose—[Interruption.]

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order—[Interruption.] Order. Parliamentary rules state that there should be no noise at all from the Gallery—[Interruption.] Madam, if you persist in carrying on talking and shouting, I will have no choice but to suspend the sitting and clear the Gallery—[Interruption.] This is your last chance. If there is any more noise from the Gallery, I will have no choice but to suspend the sitting, meaning that no one will hear from the Minister.

[Chris Grayling]

If people can make a return to work, even if it is a different form of work from what they were able to do before their health condition arose, that is better for them than spending the rest of their life on benefits. That is the principle that we are working towards.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

Let me pick up on that point straight off. It is all well and good for Opposition Members to stand up and rail about the system, but it is a system that was created by Labour four years ago when they were in government, and it is a system that we have consistently tried to improve.

Let me be absolutely clear. I put it on record that this is not a financial exercise. There are no targets attached to the reassessment of people on incapacity benefit—[Interruption.] The assessment that is in place for new claimants for employment and support allowance—

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order. If there is any more noise from the Public Gallery, I am afraid that, under the rules of Parliament, I have no choice but to suspend the sitting and clear the Gallery. I understand that people are very concerned about this issue—my constituents are concerned about it as well—but under the rules, I will have to clear the Gallery if there is any more noise. This is the last time that I will say it: if there is any more noise, I am afraid that I will have to suspend the sitting.

[Chris Grayling]

It is really important to emphasise that the reassessment of people on incapacity benefit is not a financial exercise and that there are no financial targets attached to it. It is about finding the right number of people who can make a return to work. It is not an exact science—it never was and never could be—but it is all about trying to help people back into the workplace if they can possibly return to it. That was the previous Government’s motivation when they established the work capability assessment. When we took office, we put in place the changes that they themselves had put in the pipeline through the internal review of the work capability assessment.

When we took office, I fully accepted that the process needed to be improved. That was why we brought in Malcolm Harrington and it is why I am absolutely clear that we have implemented his recommendations. I have regularly met and talked to Malcolm Harrington, and at no point has he said to me that the process is not fit for purpose. At no point has our independent adviser, whom I believe has the confidence of most people in the charitable sector who are involved in this work, said to me that this system has to stop or is unfit for purpose. He has made suggestions about improvements, and we have followed his advice in that regard. Our objective is to do the right thing, but of course this is not an exact science. We will never create a system that is perfect, which is why people have a right to appeal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I will make just one more point and then I will answer that question.

It is really important to put it on record that Atos does not take decisions. In no circumstance does Atos take a decision about whether somebody receives a benefit or does not. A claimant will be asked to fill in a form that goes to Atos for consideration of whether they should be put to an assessment, or passported straight through to the benefit. Atos carries out the assessment, but the decision about benefits is taken by a Department for Work and Pensions decision maker in Jobcentre Plus. It is really important that people understand that Atos does not take decisions.

When we talk about Atos, we are talking about a team of perhaps 1,500 health care professionals, many of whom have trained in the NHS. Those professionals are carrying out an assessment that was designed by the DWP under the previous Government and that has been continued under the current Government. Atos does not take the decisions itself.

As a result of the Harrington recommendations, we have gone out of our way to address people much more directly. Rather than letters, they now receive phone calls, in which they are asked to bring forward additional evidence. A question was asked about the mandatory reconsideration phase. Effectively, that phase already happens. Every case in which the person says they are not happy will now involve a reconsideration within Jobcentre Plus. I am keen that we have that second opinion, because we will not always get things right and I want to try to see whether we can bring forward further evidence that would enable us to make the right decision before a case ever reached the tribunal service. Effort is being put in to make that happen.

The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) asked about recordings. Let me be clear that Harrington recommended that we carried out a pilot to test recordings. I was keen that we just did it, but Harrington said to me, “Actually, it may not work, so I really think that you should pilot it. It may prove to have a negative effect.” We therefore tested recording and found that there was little enthusiasm among those being assessed to have their assessment recorded. In the end, the conclusion was that we should make recording available on a voluntary basis, but it should not be something that we do across the board.

I do not rule out recording. If there was overwhelming evidence showing that it was necessary, I would make it available, but let me give some statistics. There are 300 claimants waiting for an audio-recorded assessment, while Atos is conducting 8,000 assessments a week. We are ordering additional audio-recording machines so that people can have their assessment recorded, if they want. They are perfectly entitled to bring their own recording equipment to an assessment as long as it can record two copies of an assessment, because they need to be able to take one copy with them and leave the other behind. That is why we have to buy what is fairly expensive equipment, and we have ordered additional equipment because there has been an increase in demand in the last few weeks.

I am perfectly relaxed about recorded assessments and perfectly happy to make recording facilities available. However, the advice that I received from Malcolm Harrington was that we should test recording. The result of the pilot was not only that there was not a need for recording, but that many people felt uncomfortable being assessed with a tape recorder running.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the new descriptors that were brought forward by the charities, but he is out of date. The charities have been working with us for the past few weeks on the assessment project of the package that they brought forward. The work was finished last week. The charities wanted more time to work with us because the process is complicated and we are trying to mesh mental health issues and fluctuating conditions. As I said in Westminster Hall about 12 months ago, the problem that I had with the recommendations that the charities made in the first place was that they came forward not simply with adjustments to the existing descriptors, but instead with a comprehensive reorganisation of the assessment, which would also have involved a redesign of the physical descriptors. Given that the right hon. Gentleman has carried out such projects in the DWP, he will know well that that would be a two or three-year project.

We have tried to take forward some of the suggestions that the charities made and embed them into elements such as the ESA50 form, and we are now working with the charities to road test all this work to see whether it really makes a difference. However, I am not going to embark on a major overhaul of the whole exercise based on recommendations that are not backed by evidence without our having tested them in the way in which the previous Government tested recommendations: by putting real cases against proposed descriptors and making a comparison between the outcomes of the theoretical new descriptors and the old descriptors. Such work is on track. We are pushing the charities to make progress, because I want to get the work done, and we are still on track to complete the gold standard review in the spring.

The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) referred to the National Audit Office report. I have had the benefit of having read that report, although I know that he has not. The reality is that the report highlights a number of what I regard as not particularly major areas of improvement. If he reads the report, he will see that it reflects a big and complicated contract. It makes some suggestions for improvement, but it is not as he portrays it.

When the hon. Gentleman talks about the performance of Atos during the last two years, the key point he must remember is that the recommendations that Malcolm Harrington made, combined with some fluctuation in volumes coming through to Atos, which are certainly beyond its control, have caused significant operational difficulties. I can give him my word that I have sat in meetings with representatives of Atos and put them under intense pressure. Atos has brought in extra capacity at cost. We have made sure that we deliver at every stage. However, it is not possible to change the goalposts totally and then expect the subcontractor to take it on the chin with no consequences.

We have seen some consequences of the introduction of the Harrington recommendations, particularly the personalised statement. However, as I stand here today, we are on track to close the backlog time to where it should be later this autumn. The numbers that the hon. Gentleman gave are already well out of date. We have brought down the backlog in the number of appeals that we inherited two years ago, but it is a big task. We are dealing with a large number of people and this is a big challenge.

Let me be clear that we want to get this process right and we want to do the right thing. I want people who need long-term ongoing support to be in the support group. The Government have no interest in doing anything other than looking after those people who need that, but we will also give encouragement and support—and a bit of a push—to those who can get back into work, because I believe that that is the right thing for them.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I thank those Members who have attended this important debate for coming along today, and I encourage everyone to leave Westminster Hall quickly and quietly so that we can proceed to the next important debate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Let me give the right hon. Gentleman one piece of data: 80,000 fewer people are on out-of-work benefits today than when his party was in power.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

2. What steps he is taking to introduce a flat-rate state pension for new pensioners.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 28th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

20. What estimate he has made of the potential cost to the public purse of the removal of the habitual residency test.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

The initial estimates shared with the European Commission showed that the additional annual costs of awarding benefits to economically inactive EU nationals may be as much as £2.5 billion.

[Mr Hollobone]

Will the Minister confirm that this matter is a red line for Her Majesty’s Government which the European Commission shall not be allowed to cross? Will he undertake to lead a coalition of EU countries against these Commission proposals to interfere in the domestic business of quite a few member states in an area where the Commission should not be going?

[Chris Grayling]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. We have had a number of robust discussions with the European Commission about this matter, and I can confirm to the House that we are formally rejecting in the strongest possible manner the Commission’s reasoned opinion against the right to reside condition of the habitual residency test. I am in regular discussions with my counterparts in other European countries, many of whom share the same concern. I regard this as a battle that I do not intend us to lose.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Philip Hollobone

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

22. How many nationals of other EU member states are in receipt of benefits provided by his Department.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

One of the things that I was surprised to discover in the past few weeks is that the Department does not keep any record—nor, indeed, did it under the previous Government—of the nationality of people who claim benefits. This is something that we are moving to address; indeed, we want to find a way to ensure that we do so.

[Mr Hollobone]

It is indeed a scandal that we do not know how many EU nationals are claiming benefits funded by the British taxpayer. Is it not completely wrong for an eastern European citizen to be working in this country, with his family and children back home in Poland or wherever, and to be claiming and receiving child benefit at the British taxpayer’s expense?