Atos Healthcare

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Tuesday 4th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) on securing this important debate. This is my first time speaking after my extended absence and therefore a good subject.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

On behalf of everybody in the room and in the House, I welcome the hon. Lady back to the House. We are delighted to see her in such good shape. We were sad to hear of the difficulties in the long period of recovery she has had to go through. She is very welcome.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I thank the Minister for being gracious. He may not be quite so gracious by the time he has heard what I have to say. I do not think that the Government have grasped how disastrous the ESA assessment system is. It is not something that can be fixed by a few tweaks here and there; we tried that with the Harrington review. What we have heard today in the Chamber—and in the “Dispatches” and “Panorama” programmes filmed in June this year—suggests that not much has changed. The people complaining are not just the usual suspects, not just the radical crips, the workshy or those who want money without being assessed. They are ordinary people, most of whom worked hard all their lives until the sky fell in and they lost their job because of an illness or an acquired disability.

It is not enough for Government to say that the genuine claimant has nothing to fear. In too many cases, genuine claimants are not scoring any points in their initial assessment. There is something fundamentally wrong with the system and the contract that Atos is delivering. When the British Medical Association votes at its conference to say that the work capability assessment is not fit for purpose there is something wrong with the system. When GPs are reporting an increased workload, not just as a result of providing reports but as a result of treating patients whose condition has worsened as a result of their WCA experience, there is something wrong with the system.

When my constituent, who has lost his job because he has motor neurone disease, scores zero on his WCA and is found fully fit for work, there is something wrong with the system. When that same constituent appears in front of a tribunal and in less than five minutes is awarded 15 points, there is something wrong with the system. When people with rapidly progressive illnesses are not automatically put in the support group, there is something wrong with the system. When some people would rather do without the money to which they are absolutely entitled rather than submit to the stress of a WCA, there is something wrong with the system. When someone with a severe illness has to fight for a year through an appeal to get the correct benefit, only to be called in almost immediately for another assessment, there is something wrong with the system. When the recall and assessment happen the following year, and the following year, there is something wrong with the system. When people feel so persecuted, there is something wrong with the system. To top it all, they lose their contributory ESA after only a year if they are in the WRAG group.

When up to 40% of appeals are successful and there is no penalty for the company carrying out the assessments, there is something wrong with the contract. When so many appeals result in an award of ESA support group status when the original assessment was no points, there is something wrong with the contract. When there is no penalty for a high percentage of wrong decisions, there is something wrong with the contract. When there is no incentive for assessors to get the assessment correct first time, there is something wrong with the contract.

It is time for the Government to act, because there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole system.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we have to have a system that is fair both to the taxpayer who pays for it and to the recipients. As a result of these reforms, we will have a system that is fairer to those receiving support and also fairer to those who are paying for that support.

Support to find work, for those people who will be affected, will be available for all ESA claimants from the outset of their claim, through Jobcentre Plus on a voluntary basis until the outcome of the work capability assessment and, following the WCA, for those claimants placed in the work-related activity group, through Jobcentre Plus or through the Work programme. Every single person who is on ESA, including those on a contributory basis, has access to the Work programme.

Some have said that the limit is arbitrary. I do not accept that. As the Minister with responsibility for welfare reform explained in the other place, it is similar to that applied by several countries around the world, including France, Ireland and Spain, and strikes an appropriate balance between the needs of sick and disabled people claiming benefit and those who have to contribute towards the cost.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Can the Minister clarify, for the avoidance of doubt, that someone who has been in the work-related activity group on contributory ESA for two years who subsequently gets reassessed as belonging to the support group will have their ESA reinstated even though they do not have the national insurance contributions that would allow that to happen?

[Chris Grayling]

I can indeed confirm that that is the case. We have listened very carefully on this issue, and it was a point well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) in Committee. We have listened and we have taken appropriate action. It is important that we look at such details to ensure that we get them right, but that does not detract from the overall principle of what we are trying to achieve.

I believe that a time limit of one year is the correct approach. It applies the right balance between restricting access to contributory benefits and allowing those with longer term illnesses to adjust to their health condition and surrounding circumstances. There is also a very strong financial argument. If accepted, this amendment would reduce the total savings in the spending review period by around a third by 2016-17, which is £1.6 billion. Given the current fiscal climate, we cannot afford to forgo these savings and this is one of a number of very difficult decisions the Government have had to make because, as the shadow Secretary of State pointed out at the time, there was no money left.

Lords amendment 18 would mean that no time limit would be applied to contributory ESA for those claimants receiving treatment for cancer if they have or are treated as having limited capability for work, or they have or are treated as having limited capability for work as a consequence of a cancer diagnosis. The whole point of our approach on these matters is that we have always looked at the effects of a condition on an individual, rather than at the condition itself. We can all think of other cases which could equally be regarded as special cases. We are trying to be sensitive to the very real concerns of individuals suffering from cancer, and since we took office we have made significant changes to improve the protection and support that we provide to them.

Most individuals with cancer are placed in the support group at the outset of their treatment. We have increased the scope of the support group for cancer patients. We have been working closely with Macmillan Cancer Relief to improve how the WCA assesses individuals being treated for cancer. We are now consulting on our proposals, following work by Macmillan and Professor Harrington, our independent assessor of the work capability assessment.

We are clear that our proposals, which are now out to consultation, include a presumption that someone with cancer will be in the support group. What we simply do not accept is that in all circumstances, regardless of the impact of cancer on an individual’s ability to work or otherwise, they should be guaranteed a position in the support group. We have not taken that approach with any other condition and we do not believe that we should take it with cancer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

No, I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman.

If amendment 18 were accepted, it is estimated that it would cost around £90 million cumulatively by 2016-17 based on a two-year time limit, or around £140 million cumulatively based on a one-year time limit. That would be a significant additional cost for the taxpayer, and would fly in the face of a principle that we have tried to bring to this whole process, which is that we do not bracket any condition into one absolute position. We look at each individual case to understand the impact of the condition on the ability to work.

The third area of focus this afternoon is our proposed changes to the condition relating to entitlement to ESA on grounds of limited capability during youth. These changes are part of our principled approach to reform. We want to modernise and simplify the current welfare system, focus support, avoid duplication of provision and redefine the contract between the state and individuals, in advance of the introduction of universal credit. It cannot be right that, for example, where a claimant has qualified for contributory ESA under the youth provisions and some years later they receive a substantial inheritance, they should be able to continue to receive unlimited contributory ESA without the need to have paid any contributions and without any condition from the state.

These proposals will not affect those in receipt of income-related ESA. We expect that around 90% of those who presently receive ESA on youth grounds will be eligible for income-related ESA. It will be a simple transition from their point of view. Only some 10% will not qualify because they have other means available to them—and I emphasise that that means a partner in full-time work or capital of more than £16,000. We are merely targeting the support the Government can provide to where it is needed most. I do not think it is right that someone with independent income or capital should be able to access state support on a long-term, ongoing and unconditional basis.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Can the Minister clarify absolutely that a 20-year-old who will never work and who lives at home with their parents will be able to get income-related ESA? Obviously it cannot be contributory as they have made no national insurance contributions. Even if they live in a household above income support levels, will they continue to get income-related ESA in their own right?

[Chris Grayling]

I cannot give an undertaking in all circumstances, because every circumstance will be different. But 90% of those who presently receive ESA on youth grounds will be eligible for income-related ESA. It will depend on the circumstances of each individual case.

We have already mentioned the fact that the Government amendments allow claimants to re-qualify for a further award of contributory ESA after their ESA has ceased as a result of time limiting, and they are later placed in the support group because of a deterioration in their health. That applies equally to ESA youth claimants.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

4. If he will publish monthly information on the number of people successfully placed in jobs by Work programme contractors and the cost per job outcome.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We are working to guidelines set by the UK Statistics Authority to ensure we publish statistics that meet high-quality standards at the earliest opportunity. Statistics on referrals and attachments to the Work programme will be published from spring 2012 and job outcome data from autumn 2012. We will also publish the average cost per job outcome for claimants who have been on the programme for 24 months as part of our transparency indicators.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I have to say that I am very, very disappointed with that reply. I cannot understand why it will be more than 12 months before the Government produce statistics on job outcomes and the cost per job. After eight months of the future jobs fund, we had the statistics on job outcomes for the first four months of the scheme. I cannot see why the Government should take any longer than that. What do they have to hide?

[Chris Grayling]

I have the utmost respect for the hon. Lady, but she needs to look again at how the Work programme works. We are not making an outcome payment to providers for six months. That is a really good deal for the taxpayer, because before providers can receive payment, they must ensure not simply that that have got somebody into work for a week to boost statistics, but that they keep them in work for a sustained period. The Government cannot produce robust statistics under the guidance produced by the UK Statistics Authority if we try to do so earlier.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The voluntary sector has a crucial role to play in two ways. First, we have a wide range of voluntary sector organisations contractually involved in the Work programme, delivering support to the long-term unemployed. I also believe that a local community activity such as the excellent jobs fair that my hon. Friend organised in his constituency, together with Stafford Works, is an ideal example of how Work programme providers and the local community can work together to deliver real back-to-work support for the unemployed.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Early indications would suggest that the numbers being referred to the Work programme are much higher than many of the providers expected under the contracts they signed. What guarantee does the Minister have that people will not sit on the Work programme without any intervention for some time until the providers gear up to have the staff to deal with the numbers they face?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. It is a marked contrast to the start of the flexible new deal under the previous Government when providers went for weeks and weeks without people being referred. I am very encouraged by the start of the Work programme and by the response of providers, which are contractually obliged to provide minimum levels of support to people who are referred. As far as I can see, that is precisely what is happening: support is starting and is working well. There are courses, support and learning taking place up and down the country.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I expect it for precisely the same reason that the right hon. Member for East Ham expected me to support his education measures 10 years ago. He asked me to take on trust many of the same kinds of thing that I am asking the House to accept today. We have been completely transparent in setting out the different stages of the formulation of universal credit, and about the consultation processes that we have been through to fill in the details. We have also been clear and transparent in setting out the principles that we are following in trying to fill in those details.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I went along to one of the meetings about the Government’s proposals for child care to which the Secretary of State was kind enough to invite people. We were presented with three options containing some very selective figures, and it was therefore impossible to tell exactly what the Government were proposing. I am still none the wiser. It is very difficult to vote on a principle when we do not know what the Government are going to do to implement it.

[Chris Grayling]

The point is that we do not write numbers on the face of a Bill. I will speak in detail about the right hon. Gentleman’s amendments in a moment, but the fact is that primary legislation sets out the framework for such things. We have worked with the hon. Lady and her Select Committee members, with other Members on both sides of the House and with people and representative groups outside the House working in child care and other areas. We started a discussion process to determine which was the best of a number of options to fit into the framework that we are creating.

[Dame Anne Begg]

The Minister is right that often things are not written into a Bill, but usually the regulations have been published before the Bill leaves the House of Commons. I remember Members who are now on the Government Benches criticising regulations for being late—not for not having been published, but merely for being late. Where are the regulations so that there can be parliamentary scrutiny of this important aspect of the Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

The point is that we do not penalise parents, particularly lone parents. We do not require them to pursue work; that is out of keeping with the reality of their child care responsibilities. I am not describing school as a giant babysitting service; I am saying that for a goodly part of the year children of school age are at school, and therefore do not need additional child care. The requirements placed on parents by Jobcentre Plus in relation to their job search and whether they take up employment are designed to work around what it is reasonable and what it is not reasonable for them to do. For example, we do not expect lone parents of school-age kids to work night shifts. I can certainly assure the hon. Lady that it is not our intention, nor will it be, to seek to sanction parents in relation to a job requirement that is unreasonable and unrealistic given their child care responsibilities.

[Dame Anne Begg]

On a matter of principle, does the Minister believe that the regulations should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the same way as primary legislation?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course.

As the right hon. Member for East Ham will know, I have tabled several Government amendments to address the concerns that he and other Members raised in Committee. I will deal with those before I talk in detail about his amendments.

Government amendments 14 to 21 will make certain regulation-making provisions for universal credit, employment and support allowance, jobseeker’s allowance and pension credit subject to the affirmative resolution procedure when they are first used. I recognise the hon. Lady’s point, and it is a point that was made well by the right hon. Member for East Ham in Committee. I do not think that it would be sensible to make the provisions subject to the affirmative procedure year in, year out, but it is right and proper that the House should be able to debate them fully when they are first introduced.

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[Chris Grayling]

The technical response to that is, “You wish!” I remember many occasions on which we came to a debate and asked what the Labour Government were planning to do. Did we ever get an answer? Not at all. The right hon. Gentleman and I have different memories of the way things were.

It is important to remember that this Bill creates a structure for universal credit, and that the details will be set out in regulations. The Opposition amendments relate mainly to issues that will be dealt with in regulations, and which do not affect the structure of universal credit as set out in the Bill.

I have accepted certain recommendations from the Opposition. The Bill as introduced provided that the regulations will be subject to the negative procedure. In Committee it was suggested that that would not provide the right level of parliamentary scrutiny and control. The right hon. Member for East Ham identified a number of provisions that he thought should be subject to the affirmative procedure, and I gave a commitment in Committee on 28 April to consider those provisions carefully.

There are two provisions, in clauses 22 and 25, relating to conditionality, for which we do not think the affirmative procedure is appropriate, because they do not introduce new principles. Although we intend that regulations will be much less prescriptive than the current jobseeker’s allowance regulations, the powers in the Bill will be used to create a regime for jobseekers that is broadly similar to the current one. We have therefore formed the view that there is no necessity to subject those two to the affirmative resolution procedure. Of course, it always remains within the gift of Opposition Members to pray against regulations if they want a matter to be debated. They could, of course, do so anyway, but we are making their life a bit easier by providing for the affirmative procedure.

I have thought long and hard, and apart from those two specific provisions I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s suggestion that regulations should be made under the affirmative procedure in the first instance. I say “in the first instance” because it does not seem sensible to repeat the process year in, year out when the regulations are regularly renewed.

As set out in amendment 14, that principle covers all the key regulation-making powers relating to the universal credit, including the rules on capital, the calculation of income, the treatment of self-employed people’s cases, and the amounts of the elements within an award, including those for disabled children, housing and child care. Opposition Members might say that that is not enough to allay the concerns that they have raised on specific issues, and I shall deal with some of those specific concerns in a moment. However, I made it clear in Committee that we recognised the importance of getting the details of universal credit right. We are working hard to do so in consultation with key stakeholders, and we are listening to their concerns.

The Opposition amendments would pre-empt our considerations and tie the hands of this and any future Government with regard to areas of policy in which it is important to retain flexibility. I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to say that as we reach a final conclusion on what is right, involving Members of all parties, the Work and Pensions Committee, organisations such as the Social Security Advisory Committee, and third-party groups, we will bring regulations to the House by the affirmative procedure. There can then be a full and proper debate in Committee and a vote on Floor of the House.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Clearly the Minister has moved on this issue, but there is still the problem that the affirmative procedure is “take it or leave it”. The Work and Pensions Committee and other Members have no ability to amend regulations, so it is not the same as the line-by-line scrutiny that primary legislation receives.

[Chris Grayling]

I accept that, but that is precisely why we have extended the hand of involvement to the hon. Lady and her Committee and to Opposition Members, so that they can help us shape the details. This is a big complex project and there are challenging issues to deal with, and we want to work on a bipartisan basis and take views from all parties on how best to shape the system. In the end we will have to take a final decision ourselves, but it is our goal and intention to involve all those who wish to be involved in the thought process.

That brings me on to child care, on which we have been seeking to do precisely that. New clause 2 raises important points about how we intend to support people with formal child care costs within universal credit. Hon. Members will be aware that we recently held two seminars on the topic. Members of both Houses attended, and there were interesting and fruitful discussions. There was a follow-up seminar with a group of key stakeholders. I am aware that Members raised particular queries, and we have undertaken to look into them and provide more information. The seminars were part of an ongoing dialogue about how best to structure child care support under universal credit.

For now, I reiterate the point that I made in Committee. The Bill already allows us to include an additional element for child care within universal credit, under clause 12. We have made a firm commitment to provide such an element, but I make no apology for taking time over the details. We must get them right, and to do so we must listen to those with experience and expertise and consider the options.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

That is precisely what we have asked the Social Security Advisory Committee to examine for us: how best we deal with that cliff edge. We accept that it is there. How do we tackle it to maximise the likelihood of people moving into work?

In most cases, health charges will be one-off or occasional costs that are unlikely to weigh heavily in people’s perception of the financial gains from working. However, for some disabled people in particular, there may be a more significant factor. The current passport from working tax credit together with the separate NHS scheme for people on low incomes should mean that health costs are not, in theory, a disincentive to work, but we know that the reality is often dictated by perceptions and issues about access. We will work to get that right for universal credit. However, we await the Social Security Advisory Committee’s recommendations with interest and we believe that it will be necessary to consider them with other Departments. We need to find a way in which to address the matter that maintains support without creating insuperable barriers to returning to work. It is a complex subject, which falls beyond simply decision making by our Department because we are not responsible for much of it.

New clause 5 would ensure that claimants understand how the amount of universal credit that they receive is calculated. I share that goal, but we do not need primary legislation to achieve it. We are designing universal credit to ensure from the outset that people have the information that they need in an accessible form that is clearly set out. We intend to provide a clear record of any award when it is first made and of subsequent changes, ensuring that claimants are always up to date with the latest position.

Universal credit will be a digital service by default that claimants will predominantly access online. However, we recognise that not all universal credit claimants have access to the internet and we will continue to provide notification through other channels. We are also working with the Government Digital Service—as well as other partners—to help people get and stay online by providing more reliable internet access and training in communities. Of course, we put in place some of the measures to increase digital access when we debated the appropriate regulations last week.

The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) was concerned that one part of the benefits system going wrong would bring down the whole deck of cards for a family. She is wrong in thinking that, simply because we have multiple channels, the system somehow works well at the moment and will be much more vulnerable under universal credit. The current system does not often provide that security. Outstanding questions can affect a wide range of existing benefits, particularly at key points of transition, such as moving into work. Many people do not even claim everything to which they are entitled. Rather than a patchwork of provision, with people thinking, “Have I got everything I’m entitled to? If I don’t know a particular answer, everything gets delayed”, a single point of entry, a single point of access and a single system of paying benefits makes it less likely that somebody will get into difficulties and not receive all the money to which they are entitled. I do not therefore believe that the hon. Lady has got that right. We are confident that universal credit will not have the effect that she suggests—it will make it easier to access benefits. Of course, we intend to introduce a system of payment on account, which will allow some payments to be made even if all the details of the claim cannot be sorted out straight away.

Amendment 26 on reporting would make it a legal requirement that we assess and report on access to welfare advice, including advice for those unable to use the internet, before we introduce universal credit. Universal credit will be a simpler system than we have today. It will be easier for potential and existing claimants to find out relevant information online, and easier for advisers to understand and advise.

Welfare advice is already provided by Jobcentre Plus, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and local authorities through a variety of means—over the internet and via other routes.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Even if universal credit fulfils what the Minister describes—he says that it will be simpler, and although it will certainly be simpler superficially, in practice it may be more difficult—with any move from an old system, it takes time for people such as advisers to become familiar with the new system. Advice will be crucial at that pinch point. Will the Minister ensure that the organisations that provide advice are properly funded in that transitional period?

[Chris Grayling]

My view is that our partner organisations, such as Citizens Advice, need to be involved and informed of all the changes. We need to continue to be able to offer the valuable advice that they give to individuals. We provide quite substantial blocks of Government funding to Citizens Advice and similar organisations, and it will be for them to decide how best to use that financial support. In what are straitened financial times, I would hope that those organisations would see their priority as sending as much of that money as possible to front-line advice services, and spending as little as possible on central administration, central marketing activities and other head office functions. I would like those organisations to focus on providing every spare bit of cash that they can for front-line advice services—as well as finding ways of generating more spare cash for that purpose—because after all, that is where the money is most effectively and valuably spent.

We will seek to provide guidance, training and advice for advisers on the universal credit and the implications thereof. There is always a willingness on our part to talk to groups of advisers, including at some of the big conferences that Citizens Advice organises. I have not been able to do so yet—I have offered to do so on other matters—but we are always willing to provide such input to those organisations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

As I said to the right hon. Gentleman in Committee, we are looking at the best way of doing this. We cannot have a situation in which people who are receiving an entitlement to the universal credit while generating no income at all over long periods of time still say that they are self-employed. We must ensure that that does not happen, and we are looking for the best way of doing it. If we wrote the rules into primary legislation, we would not be able to take decisions and fine-tune on the basis of experience, as we would have to come back to primary legislation every time. That is why I think it inappropriate to accept the right hon. Gentleman’s amendments.

Let me make some further progress. Amendment 33 seeks to remove the restriction on eligibility for pension credit for couples where one member is below and the other is above the pension credit qualifying age. Suffice it to say that although someone over the retirement age should be able to receive benefits for the household under the pension credit system, someone under the retirement age being able to receive the benefits of a means-tested system without having to go out and look for a job is just plain wrong. I am afraid we disagree on that, and I am comfortable with the changes. They are set out in legislation, which is where one would expect them to be set out. I am disappointed at the right hon. Gentleman’s disappointment that we have not issued a press release on the subject, but I do not think that this is the kind of change that would command the front pages of any newspaper. It seems perfectly reasonable to set out proposed changes in legislation, given that it is legislation that is laid before the House with accompanying explanatory notes that Members can read and discuss and into which they have an input.

Amendment 68 would add additional provisions for carers to paragraph 4(4) of schedule 1. It is not necessary to set a minimum level of payments to carers. The risk is that the incentives for carers to get into work are blurred by the automatic payment of an amount that does not relate to their personal circumstances. We all agree that work, not benefits, is the best route out of poverty, and we must ensure that payment levels are not set so high as to undermine that.

Amendment 61 takes us back to an issue that was extensively debated in Committee in respect of the payment of universal credit. Opposition Members suggest that that default position should be that payments made in respect of children are routinely directed to the carer. The amendment would provide powers to specify other circumstances for paying a portion of the universal credit award to a particular individual.

We have published a policy briefing note setting out our intentions for payments. We have already said that couples will be able to choose which of them receives the award and they could direct it to a joint account for both to access. It is a core principle of our approach that individuals are best placed to make choices about what is best for their own circumstances. There will, of course, be some exceptional circumstances and there are powers within the Bill to amend the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to allow the Secretary of State to pay all or part of an award to another individual. We do not need this amendment to ensure that. However, the default position should be that we make payment to the person chosen by the couple, not by anyone else.

Many of the concerns raised in this debate are, of course, about the possibility that universal credit might be less generous to some people than the current system of benefits and tax credits. We propose a radical reform and a simplification of the welfare system. In that situation, it is not possible to replicate exactly every aspect of the current system. That is why we will introduce a system of transitional protection to ensure that there are no cash losers as a result of the move to universal credit.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Will the Minister tell us how much will be available for the transitional protection? The figure of £2 billion was mentioned, but that included all the changes, all the administration and IT as well as the transitional protection. What is the spending envelope? How much will cover the transitional arrangements?

[Chris Grayling]

The £2 billion contains sufficient money for us to be able to deliver the transitional protection and the various changes. I do not have the numbers in front of me, but I will happily write to the hon. Lady to give her the more detailed figures we have published so far. We have given a clear commitment to transitional protection. It costs what it costs, but we have made a sensible projection of what we believe it will cost, which is contained in the budget for the spending review period. It is important to ensure that there are no cash losers as a result of the transition, but it is impossible to make a big change of this kind without finding that people in subsequent years are in a different financial position from their counterparts in previous years. Inevitably, some will move one way; others will move another. The only fair and proper way of dealing with the situation is to ensure that everyone is protected in cash terms.

We think that we have put together a framework in part 1 that will give us the flexibility to introduce the universal credit and to fine-tune the proposals as necessary so that if we do not get everything quite right at the start, we can fine-tune as we go by, and that a future Government will have the flexibility to do that. We have made absolutely sure that we have the appropriate protections in place so that there is an element for child care, for parents, for those with disabilities, and so on and so forth.

We think we have created a sensible framework of the kind that in different areas of policy and in different ways were created through primary legislation by previous Governments, including the last Government. I do not believe for a second that it would be prudent to write into the Bill the sort of amendments that the Opposition have tabled. I have responded to their wish to see more measures brought forward on the affirmative rather than the negative procedure, which I think is right and proves that we will listen and make amendments where it is sensible to do so. I am afraid that the Opposition are seeking to write the sort of detail into the Bill that they would never have put in legislation when they were in government; they would never have followed that approach themselves. That is why I cannot possibly accept their amendments and why I ask the House to accept the Government new clauses and to reject the Opposition amendments.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. One encouraging thing about the Work programme is the vast diversity of organisations taking part—from big international organisations to small businesses; and from some of our bigger more prestigious charities, such as the Prince’s Trust, down to individual charities—even a walled garden project is involved in Yorkshire—and many of our local colleges. Together, they can make a huge difference in what is a revolutionary approach to the problem of long-term unemployment in this country.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

The Minister will remember an exchange of correspondence that he had with the Select Committee about TUPE cover. Now that the Work programme has gone live, the confusion over which posts will enjoy TUPE protection has continued. Of two contractors in the same area, one says that TUPE does apply and the other says that it does not—in some cases, to the same workers in some of the subcontracting companies. I urge the Minister to clarify this issue and ensure that his Department sets out clear advice about which positions have TUPE protection and the rules regarding people working in the Work programme.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady needs to remember that in many cases the programmes that we are replacing are very different to the Work programme. Pathways to work, for example, was simply six work-focused interviews. There will be cases in which TUPE does not apply. We have been very clear in saying to the providers that it is a matter between the providers themselves, the individuals and the former employers to resolve when and where it applies. It is not for the Department to offer legal advice to providers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely give that assurance. We want to get this right, and we have introduced these changes because we think they improve the process. For example, we expect more mental health patients to end up in the support group as a result of the changes we have introduced. I have made it very clear to everyone involved that if there are further ways of improving the process, as a result either of recommendations from Professor Harrington or of the experience of the national roll-out, we will move quickly to make the necessary changes.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I want to be clear on what the Minister is saying will be in place by June in respect of Professor Harrington’s recommendations, and whether that will include the new descriptors—I understand that they will be another year away. I ask about this because my constituents have already been through the system as they are the first to be migrated from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance. It is important to ensure that they have been assessed properly, because they will also be the first cohort whose contributory ESA will be removed from them after they have been on it for a year—there is an unfairness in that process too.

[Chris Grayling]

We will take all necessary steps to ensure that the decision-making process is correct. Professor Harrington did not recommend changes to the descriptors ahead of the national roll-out; he recommended that they should be part of the second year review process. I invited him to accelerate that work, and if and when he makes further recommendations, either before or as part of the second year review, we will move quickly to implement them.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dame Anne Begg]

Indeed. We heard on Monday, in Burnley, that the appeal process can take anything from a year to 18 months. There are real doubts about the ability of the tribunal system to cope.

[Chris Grayling]

At present, the appeal process takes 17 weeks on average. A year or more is absolutely not the norm. I would be happy to discuss the matter in the Select Committee, but I should grateful if the hon. Lady would note what I have said for the record.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Interestingly enough, a constituent of mine is having to wait for six months. I thought that that was ridiculous enough, but two or three weeks ago, when the Committee was taking evidence, we were told that someone was having to wait for between nine months and a year. Perhaps the Minister should talk to his officials, because it seems that in some areas, at least, the wait is much longer than 17 months.

I mentioned the withdrawal of contributory ESA after a year. Many of the people who will lose that benefit will not qualify for a means-tested benefit, particularly in my constituency, where there will probably be a partner or someone else in the household who has an income. Such people will lose all the money that they have.

We have heard today what has been said by cancer charities, but it is not just cancer sufferers who will be affected. Many other people may not have been given a diagnosis, or may have had a mental breakdown from which they have not recovered. It may take at least a year for those people to get anywhere near the Work programme, although they will be in the work activity group because their disabilities will not be severe enough for them to qualify for membership of the support group. They will be told to come back after another three months, because they will still not be fit for work. They may find that they have used up the whole year’s worth of contributory benefit before they are anywhere near even looking for a job. Many with other illnesses and disabilities will fall into the same category.

I was going to read out a letter from Heather Bennett that would have summed up the position far better than I have. Unfortunately I have no time to do so, but I ask the Government please to reconsider.

Youth Unemployment

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Does the hon. Gentleman honestly think that businesses in his constituency would have been better off with a 1 percentage point jobs tax rise, as the previous Administration planned? That would have caused more of an increase in unemployment than anything else the Government could have done.

The right hon. Member made one point, however, which is absolutely right and with which we absolutely agree. Youth unemployment is a major problem for our society and one that absolutely must be tackled. The failure to tackle youth unemployment with schemes that work contributes so much to many other issues that we have to deal with on streets and in neighbourhoods throughout the country.

Endemic worklessness is underpinned by an ever more complex benefits system that traps people in unemployment. Inter-generational poverty is fuelled by welfare dependency, involving generation after generation of people who have not worked. There is a lack of aspiration, especially among young people who lack role models in a country where almost 2 million children are growing up in workless households. Worst of all, the young people who escape welfare dependency and poverty will still carry the economic scars of unemployment for years afterwards, in terms of lower wages and future employment gaps. That is the harsh reality of Labour’s legacy for our young people.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I worry about the either/or in the Minister’s equation. He says that the answer is either apprenticeships or the future jobs fund, but it should be both, because the young people who go into apprenticeships are not the same cohort who suffer the inter-generational worklessness to which he refers. They need extra support, and that is where the future jobs fund has been very, very effective.

[Chris Grayling]

I accept the principle but do not agree with the detail of what the hon. Lady says. I shall come on to discuss the Work programme and how I aim to use it to deal with the problem that she rightly highlights.

Opposition Members should remember that over the years they made lots of promises about apprenticeships but consistently under-performed on them. Our job is to make sure we do not do that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Monday 14th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I am pleased to inform the House of two things. First, the Work programme bidding process closed this morning, and we have had a substantial number of bids, which is very encouraging. It looks as if the Work programme is going to go ahead according to plan, which is good news. I would also say to the hon. Lady that, shortly before the start of these parliamentary questions, I placed a written statement before the House, giving details of an extension to the welfare-to-work contracts under existing programmes through to next June. I have also written to the hon. Lady and her Committee, setting out the details of those changes. We believe that we have now put in place all the mechanisms needed to ensure a smooth transition through to the start of the Work programme, which remains very much on track.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I am glad to hear that my letter has had some effect, but will the Minister confirm that the contractors who are currently delivering Pathways to Work and whose contracts are due to expire at the end of March will not have to issue redundancy notices to their staff in the next couple of weeks, because they will be able to continue until they know whether they will be part of the Work programme?

[Chris Grayling]

Transitional arrangements will involve the existing providers in all programmes except Pathways to Work. In that instance, we are setting up an interim support programme which will be more substantial than such programmes have been in the past. As the hon. Lady will know, Pathways to Work was severely criticised by the Public Accounts Committee. Our interim arrangements will cover those who would otherwise have received support through Pathways.

Jobs and the Unemployed

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That is not my concern. My concern is to ensure that, if the OBR forecasts are correct and we see employment growth amounting to 1.5 million more jobs in the next few years, we do not make the same mistake in government as the hon. Gentleman’s party did and fail to get people off benefits and into work to take those jobs. I do not want to see a steady and unchanging level of millions and millions of people on out-of-work benefits over the course of a decade while jobs are created around them, effectively operating outside our mainstream society. That must change. I want opportunity for those people. I want to see them back in employment. I am sure the hon. Gentleman shares that goal, but what we aim to do is make it happen this time around.

[Miss Begg]

I am sure the Minister is well aware that the increase in the number of people claiming incapacity benefit is a result of mental health problems. He may also know that, in response to most surveys, 60% of employers say that they would not employ someone who has had a mental health problem. How will the Government solve that conundrum?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady has made an important point, which I am sure her Committee will want to address. In fact, I was going to refer to the work capability assessment. These are important issues, and we clearly face a big challenge. There are 2.2 million people on old-style incapacity benefit, and we must do all we can to help as many of them as possible to return to work. Of course, not all of those people will be able to work and many will need to continue to receive unconditional support throughout their lives; but every organisation I have ever worked with, come across or talked to that works with people with disabilities and long-term sickness problems would like to see more of them back at work. We all believe that work will help those people, and I am determined that this part of the Work programme will make a huge difference to them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Monday 14th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am all in favour of systems being as simple as possible. One of the things that I aim to ensure will happen when we introduce the single Work programme is that providers build links with local employers and explain to employers the support and opportunities that exist. We need to ensure that we maximise the employment opportunities that are out there for people without work, whether young or older.

[Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State made great play of the idea that the best way to get people into work and off benefits is to make work pay. What will the coalition Government do to achieve that—cut benefits or increase in-work support?

[Chris Grayling]

First, I congratulate the hon. Lady on her election to the position of Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee. My colleagues and I look forward to meeting her and her Committee in the weeks ahead.

The most important thing that we can do is to deliver first-class back-to-work support to help some of the people who have been stranded on benefits for long periods and often do not have a clear sense of what they need to do to get back into the workplace. That will be a key focus for us in trying to ensure that those people get back into work. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is examining the benefits system and how we remove some of the disincentives within it that sometimes make it financially disadvantageous for people to get back into work, which cannot be right.

Tackling Poverty in the UK

Debate between Lord Grayling and Anne Begg

Thursday 10th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That is an important point. We must encourage and work with employers, and we should start at home. Whitehall and Government Departments and agencies should be at the forefront of finding the best ways to provide opportunities for people with disabilities, and that will be a priority for my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary. If we do not lead from the front, no one else will, and that is something that we certainly want to see happen.

[Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

How will the Minister encourage employers to employ people with mental health problems when the stigma is so great? We have had recent examples of discrimination against people who have disclosed mental health problems.

[Chris Grayling]

First, I congratulate the hon. Lady on her election to the Chair of the Select Committee on Work and Pensions. My colleagues and I look forward to being grilled by her in the months ahead, but I hope that we will have a constructive relationship. I hope that we can listen openly to the ideas that come from her Committee and that we can work together to make a difference on some of these issues.

I very much agree with the hon. Lady on mental health issues. One thing that I hope will come through the Work programme, where we have established providers with specialist skills working with employers and people who have had mental health challenges in their lives, is that we will have the kind of partnership that will break some of these barriers down. Once a provider starts to work with a group of employers, starts to bring good people to them, and that works well, more doors will be opened. The hon. Lady makes an important point; more than 2 million people are on incapacity benefit and many have supplemental health problems, and they must be looked after in the Work programme and we must ensure that it delivers opportunities for them.