Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 19th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am happy to congratulate Partick Thistle on their anniversary. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is looking forward to a successful season next season, and will probably be in the stands on many Saturdays.

We will respond to the Procedure Committee’s report on private Members’ Bills in the appropriate timeframe, which I think is by 12 June.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

According to the Samaritans, 4,722 people took their life in England in 2015. While this trend is in a 30-year decline, in recent years it has worryingly been rising again to the highest level since 2004. May we have a debate on the implementation of the Government’s suicide prevention strategy for England and how the Government might assist further the prevention of suicides?

[Chris Grayling]

This is, of course, a serious issue. We have seen an upward trend in recent times, particularly among young men. Suicide prevention is a focus for the Government. It is one reason why we are trying to put more resource into providing proper mental health support. Mental health is a crucial area of our health service, and something that we must do as well as we can. The Health Secretary will be here on Monday for the public services debate, and I would encourage the hon. Gentleman to bring up the subject of mental health then so that it remains very much in the sights of the Department of Health.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 28th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I am aware of allegations about the Labour PCC candidate in Humberside. If the stories alleged about that candidate are true, he is unfit for public office, and it is a matter of public interest that the truth should be known before election day.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Back in 1847 when Lord John Russell was Prime Minister, our taxi licensing laws were developed. We now have a problem in the north-west of England, where one local authority is handing out hackney carriage taxi licences like sweeties. The problem is that with a hackney licence a person can operate as a private hire vehicle driver anywhere in the country, so there are now taxis from that local authority operating as far afield as Bristol without appropriate checks and balances. May we have an urgent debate on how we can bring our taxi licensing regime up to date?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I was not aware of the situation that he describes. I will make sure that it is drawn to the attention of the Secretary of State for Transport who I am sure, if he was also unaware of it, will want to look at the matter very seriously.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 14th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That is a shocking and very disturbing story, and we send our sincere condolence and good wishes to Mr Volante’s family and convey our distress about the fact that this could happen. Clearly, one would wish the housing association involved to be acting quickly to make sure on the ground that that cannot happen again, but I will also make sure that my colleagues in the Department of Health are aware that this happened and ask them to look at whether there are lessons to be learned for the future.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

May we have a statement from a Minister on the crisis in funding for local services? How can it be fair that every household in Audenshaw, Denton and Dukinfield has lost £414.74 in Government grant since 2011 and every household in Reddish and the Heatons has lost £297.35 in that same period, yet every household in Epsom and Ewell has lost only £13.12? We are not all in it together, are we?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman quotes the change figures, but he may wish to look at the absolute figures. We attempt to provide a fair balance of funding around the country. We take difficult decisions that ensure that local authorities have funding they can use to deliver necessary services while also enabling us to meet our national targets. I assure him that councils in many parts of the country still receive far less than councils in his area.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 25th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am not aware of that small number of cases. The Secretary of State is here on Monday, and I will ensure that he is aware of the hon. Lady’s concern. If she wants to bring that matter to him then, he will be able to give her a more detailed response.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The Government’s childhood obesity strategy has been pre-briefed and then delayed not once but five times. The answers that I am getting from Ministers, including the Prime Minister, who cannot even tell me whether he has seen a draft copy of the strategy, have been not worth the paper they are written on. May we have a statement as soon as possible outlining the Government’s intentions to publish the childhood obesity strategy and finally break this wall of silence from Ministers?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course it is the Government’s intention to publish the childhood obesity strategy, but we are also working on getting it right. I can absolutely assure the hon. Gentleman that, when we come to publish that document, when it is ready and we are satisfied that it is the right tool for the job, we will bring it to the House.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 4th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I always value the moments when we find ourselves sitting alongside the SNP, as it were, because they are all too rare. We talk about the deficit because it is true: over the past few years this country has had a major crisis in its public finances. We have made good progress in turning that around, but we have a way still to go. It has led to some difficult decisions. The pension issue is about equality. It is about ensuring that men and women have the same state retirement age, and it is also about our retirement age reflecting the good news that we are all living longer.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the impact of relaxing planning rules? Such a debate would give me the opportunity to raise the plight of Haughton Green in my constituency, where, in recent times, residents have seen a loss of their heritage with the bulldozing of the old rectory and have been deprived of a say over the future use of the Methodist church, and where there is likely to be extensive in-fill development, even though that will require the use of already congested medieval road infrastructure.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman will have the opportunity to raise these issues with Ministers on Monday. There is a balance to be found in making sure that we protect local environments and the character of local areas but also provide adequate housing for the next generation, because that is also important.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 28th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The only person who should resign is someone who works for the current leader of the Labour party and does not agree with him. Let us be clear. The hon. Gentleman has clearly misunderstood the point that I was making last week. There is not a recommendation in the Smith commission report that this should happen. We have implemented the recommendations of the Smith commission report about what should happen. The two Administrations should carry on talking about this area and a whole variety of areas, and we do and we will, but the Smith commission did not recommend that we implement a change on this and we have not done so.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Public health and the air we breathe was greatly improved as a result of the Clean Air Act 1956, but much of the progress since then has gone backwards. In large parts of England, including in my own constituency, air quality falls dramatically below European safe standards, so may we have a statement from the Environment Secretary about the need for a new clean air Act fit for the 21st century?

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 21st January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady makes an important and sensible point. The Under-Secretary of State for Disabled People will be here on Monday week when she can put that point to him. It is something that I will also ensure is passed on to the Department, as she makes an interesting and valuable point.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the Government’s decision to cut public health in-year budgets by £200 million, given that Simon Stevens’ “Five Year Forward View” predicates that in year 5 £5 billion will be freed up from prevention? Is it not short-sighted of this Government to cut the very budgets that will allow that to happen in the future?

[Chris Grayling]

We face different challenges in the health world, but we continue to increase the amount of money that we spend on health in this country, and will continue to do so.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 14th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I had a brief discussion about this very matter with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice a while ago. I know that it is a matter of great concern to Home Office Ministers, who have been considering and discussing it in recent days. It is clearly a matter of great concern, because the lasting impact of an acid attack on an individual can be profoundly life-changing. We must always condemn such attacks, and always try to stop them. I will ensure that my hon. Friend’s concerns are raised after this session.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Last Monday saw the deadline pass for responses to the consultation on the Greater Manchester spatial framework, which sets out housing land supply for the next 20 years. It is bad enough that very few councillors in Greater Manchester knew that the consultation was taking place, but it is atrocious that the public did not know either. May we have a debate in Government time on the accountability of combined authorities, to the electorate in particular, but also to the members of the constituent councils?

[Chris Grayling]

I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has said. I will pass his concerns to the Department for Communities and Local Government, which will undoubtedly be anxious to ensure that the new systems work effectively. Of course, councils and councillors have a duty to communicate what is going on to their members and their constituents. When that does not happen it is not always the fault of the people at the centre; nevertheless, there is that duty to try to ensure that the message gets out.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 7th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Motability is of course an important scheme—indeed, the welfare support we provide to people facing disability challenges is very important—but it is right and proper to have gateways in place. One of the reasons why we moved from the disability living allowance to PIP was that a very large number of people receiving DLA and accessing the support provided to people with disabilities had self-referred or self-diagnosed and, in the end, we had no certainty that those people genuinely needed such support.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

May we have a statement from the Minister for Housing and Planning on carbon reduction building regulations? It is clear to all but Ministers that it is more cost-effective to integrate solar photovoltaics and solar thermal in buildings at the construction stage. Both the Greater London Authority and the Scottish Government have improved their building regulations in that respect. Is it not time for the rest of the United Kingdom to follow suit?

[Chris Grayling]

We have a record in government of encouraging the growth of renewables in this country that is second to none. In the last year, the level of electricity generated by renewables has risen above 25%. Building regulations and standards have improved, developed and changed, but there has to be a degree of flexibility for building firms to decide what products they will actually build.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 17th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is clearly making very effective use of social media in his campaigning, and I commend him for that. I will make sure that his request is passed on to the Secretary of State.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The Manchester Evening News recently ran a piece highlighting premises in Greater Manchester with poor food hygiene ratings, and featured the Red Lion in Denton. Unfortunately for the Manchester Evening News, the Red Lion is under new ownership. The editor has apologised to the proprietors, but they tell me that it got the information from the gov.uk website. May we have a debate in Government time on how up to date the information on Government websites is, and whether, when information is incorrect, it can be corrected promptly?

[Chris Grayling]

Most importantly, before any newspaper publishes a list of people to name and shame them, it is good practice to telephone them first to put it to them. If the newspaper had done that, it would have been able to be corrected. I always want and expect gov.uk to be as up to date as possible, but tracking every change of management in an organisation that has had a poor report would be impossible. It is good journalistic practice to phone up and ask for a comment and then discover that the change has happened.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Many Departments are now responding to questions electronically. It is a bit harsh of the hon. Gentleman to criticise both the team at No. 10 and the Foreign Office for being extremely quick in responding to his questions. We aim to please.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

By capping the number of occupants at five and renting properties rather than buying them, as has happened at Porlock Avenue in Audenshaw in my constituency, Serco, which is contracted by the Home Office, avoids planning and licensing requirements relating to houses in multiple occupation. May we have a debate on asylum dispersal addresses, as this sharp practice risks undermining public confidence and community relations, which none of us wants to see?

[Chris Grayling]

We will shortly have Communities and Local Government questions. I would never support inappropriate practices, but it might be the case that not putting large numbers of asylum seekers in the same place and instead allowing them to blend into the community is the right thing to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The review and the work we do in the next 12 months should take into account all concerns raised by Members. I give the right hon. Gentleman a commitment that we will of course listen to views from across the House on this and other matters.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I, too, find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). Does the Leader of the House not accept that unless he is very careful in the drafting of the new rules, there will be the unintended consequence of creating certain members of the other place who will be more powerful than Members of this House?

[Chris Grayling]

I do not accept that. We have taken great care in drafting the rules. We will monitor very carefully their operation in practice. If the hon. Gentleman and other Members have concerns over the next 12 months, they will undoubtedly want to raise them as part of our review process.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, when we talk about the international challenges facing this country, we are referring to the UK as a whole. That is a given. Many aspects of the way in which we as a Government interact with the steel industry are devolved. Transport is an example. It is disappointing that, while we are working hard in England and Wales to ensure that we source as much steel for transport projects as possible from local suppliers, the same has not happened in Scotland, whose own Administration have responsibility in this area.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The reply from the Leader of the House to my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) made it quite clear that he did not understand the issues surrounding the state pensions of ladies born in the 1950s. May I politely suggest that he meet representatives of Women Against State Pension Inequality, in order to understand that they are not against the equalisation of the state pension age, but that this is an equality issue? Those women have been clobbered not once but twice, and there is no transition. When he has met them, will he change his mind about having a debate on the matter?

[Chris Grayling]

I have already had discussions with people who are affected, and I understand why they are frustrated, but the Government have to take difficult decisions about transitions and increasing the state pension age. That is what took place under the previous Government, and it is taking place under this Government. When life expectancy rises sharply—which is good—we have to raise the state pension age, and we have to take difficult decisions about how to do that.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

I beg to move,

That

(1) The following new Standing Orders and changes to Standing Orders be made:

“CERTIFICATION OF BILLS, CLAUSES AND SCHEDULES ETC: GENERAL

83J. Certification of bills etc. as relating exclusively to England or England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence

(1) The Speaker shall, before second reading-

(a) consider every public bill presented by a Minister of the Crown or brought from the Lords and taken up by a Minister of the Crown, and

(b) certify any such bill, or any clause or schedule of any such bill, which, in the Speaker’s opinion-

(i) relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, and

(ii) is within devolved legislative competence.

(2) A clause or schedule relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales if (disregarding any minor or consequential effects outside the area in question) it applies only to England or (as the case may be) to England and Wales.

(3) A clause or schedule which relates exclusively to England is within devolved legislative competence if-

(a) it would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to make any corresponding provision for Scotland in an Act of that Parliament,

(b) it would be within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales to make any corresponding provision for Wales in an Act of that Assembly, or

(c) it would be within the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly to make any corresponding provision for Northern Ireland in an Act of that Assembly and the corresponding provision would deal with a transferred matter.

(4) A clause or schedule which relates exclusively to England and Wales is within devolved legislative competence if-

(a) it would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to make any corresponding provision for Scotland in an Act of that Parliament, or

(b) it would be within the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly to make any corresponding provision for Northern Ireland in an Act of that Assembly and the corresponding provision would deal with a transferred matter.

(5) A bill-

(a) relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence if every clause and every schedule of it relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence;

(b) relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence if every clause and every schedule of it relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence.

(6) In deciding whether a bill relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, the Speaker shall treat any clause or schedule whose only effects are minor or consequential effects outside the area in question as relating exclusively to that area.

(7) In deciding whether a clause or schedule is within devolved legislative competence, the Speaker may take account of any amendments to the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly which-

(a) are not in force at the time of certification, but

(b) are to come into force on a day already fixed by law,

if the Speaker considers that the clause or schedule is itself only likely to come into force on or after that day; and, for this purpose, an amendment which is in force but applies only in relation to a future period of time (or a clause or schedule which is likely to come into force but so apply) is to be treated as not being in force (or as not likely to come into force) until the start of that period (being a day already fixed by law).

(8) In deciding whether to certify a bill, clause or schedule under this order, the Speaker-

(a) may consult two members of the Panel of Chairs who are appointed for this purpose by the Committee of Selection on a session by session basis, and

(b) shall disregard any provision inserted by the House of Lords which, in the Speaker’s opinion, has the sole objective of ensuring that Standing Order No. 80(a) (Privilege (bills brought from the Lords)) will apply to the bill.

(9) The Speaker shall announce any decision under this order to the House.

(10) This order shall not apply to the following bills-

(a) a bill which is certified under Standing Order No. 97(1) (Scottish Grand Committee (bills in relation to their principle)),

(b) a bill referred to the Welsh Grand Committee under Standing Order No. 106(1) (Welsh Grand Committee (bills)),

(c) a bill referred to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee under Standing Order No. 113(1) (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (bills in relation to their principle)),

(d) a bill which falls to be considered by the select committee appointed under Standing Order No. 140 (Joint Committee on Consolidation, &c., Bills),

(e) a bill whose main purpose is to give effect to proposals contained in a report by a Law Commission,

(f) a tax law rewrite bill,

(g) a bill introduced under the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act 1945 or for confirming a provisional order.

(11) This order-

(a) shall not affect the right of every Member to vote on-

(i) the consideration of estimates, and

(ii) ways and means motions and motions for money resolutions (other than motions to which Standing Order No. 83U applies), and

(b) shall not apply to a Consolidated Fund or Appropriation Bill.

83K. Committal and recommittal of certified England only bills

(1) A bill certified by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England and being within devolved legislative competence may only be committed to-

(a) a public bill committee (to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies), or

(b) the Legislative Grand Committee (England).

(2) A bill whose current certification by the Speaker (whether under Standing Order No. 83J or 83L) is that it relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence may only be recommitted to-

(a) a public bill committee (to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies), or

(b) the Legislative Grand Committee (England).

83L. Reconsideration of certification before third reading

(1) Paragraph (2) applies in relation to every bill which-

(a) was eligible for certification under Standing Order No. 83J (whether or not the bill, or any clause or schedule of it, was so certified),

(b) has been amended since its second reading, and

(c) has completed the stages before its third reading.

(2) The Speaker shall, before a motion may be made for the third reading of the bill-

(a) reconsider the bill, and

(b) certify the bill, or any clause or schedule of it, if the bill or clause or schedule, in the Speaker’s opinion-

(i) relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, and

(ii) is within devolved legislative competence.

(3) Paragraph (4) applies in relation to every bill which-

(a) was certified (whether in whole or in part) by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J,

(b) has been amended since its second reading, and

(c) has completed the stages before its third reading.

(4) The Speaker shall, before a motion may be made for the third reading of the bill, certify any amendment made to the bill since second reading which, in the opinion of the Speaker-

(a) related to the bill so far as certified under Standing Order No. 83J,

(b) was not made by the Legislative Grand Committee (England) or a public bill committee to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies, and

(c) either-

(i) resulted in there being no certification under paragraph (2) when there would otherwise have been such a certification, or

(ii) changed the area to which a certification under paragraph (2) would otherwise have related.

(5) Any amendment certified under paragraph (4) shall be certified as relating exclusively to the area to which the certification under paragraph (2) would have related had that amendment not been made (and there shall be no certification as to devolved legislative competence).

(6) The Speaker shall announce any decision under paragraph (2) or (4) to the House.

(7) The Speaker shall, wherever possible, announce the Speaker’s decisions under paragraph (2) or (4) immediately after the conclusion of proceedings on the previous stage of the bill.

(8) Paragraphs (2) to (8) of Standing Order No. 83J apply for the purposes of certification of bills, clauses, schedules and amendments under this order as they apply for the purposes of certification of bills, clauses and schedules under that order.

83M. Consent Motions for certified England only or England and Wales only provisions

(1) Paragraphs (2) and (3) apply where-

(a) a bill, or clauses or schedules of a bill, have been certified under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence, and the bill has completed the stages before its third reading without having been amended,

(b) a bill or clauses or schedules of a bill have been certified under Standing Order No. 83L(2) as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence, or

(c) amendments have been certified under Standing Order No. 83L(4) as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales.

(2) A Consent Motion which gives consent to the bill, clauses or schedules or amendments must be passed by the legislative grand committee for the area to which the certification relates before a motion may be made for the third reading of the bill.

(3) If a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move a Consent Motion, the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee which is to consider the motion.

(4) If a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move both a Consent Motion which is to be passed by the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) and a Consent Motion which is to be passed by the Legislative Grand Committee (England)-

(a) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) to consider the motion for that committee,

(b) on moving that motion, the Minister shall also inform the committee of the terms of the motion to be moved in the Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(c) any debate in the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) may also relate to the motion for the Legislative Grand Committee (England), and

(d) on conclusion of proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales)-

(i) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(ii) a Minister of the Crown shall forthwith move the motion for that committee, and

(iii) proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) shall be brought to a conclusion forthwith.

(5) Standing Orders Nos. 83E (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration and up to and including third reading) and 83I (Programme orders: supplementary provisions) shall apply for the purpose of bringing proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (4)(d)(iii) above (whether or not those proceedings are subject to a programme order) as they apply for the purpose of bringing proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with a programme order.

(6) On the conclusion of proceedings on a Consent Motion (or, in a case falling within paragraph (4), the conclusion of proceedings on the second Consent Motion), the chair shall report the decision of the committee (or, as the case may be, the decisions of the committees) to the House.

(7) Subject to paragraph (8), a Consent Motion shall be in the form either “That the Committee consents to the XXX Bill” or “That the Committee consents to [the following certified clauses [and schedules] of the XXX Bill] [and certified amendments made by the House to the XXX Bill]…”; and in the latter case the motion shall identify the clauses or schedules or amendments in question.

(8) If a Minister of the Crown wishes to propose that a committee should not consent to certain clauses or schedules or amendments, the Consent Motion shall be in the form “That the Committee consents to [the following certified clauses [and schedules] of the XXX Bill] [and certified amendments made by the House to the XXX Bill]… and does not consent to [the following certified clauses [and schedules] of the XXX Bill] [and certified amendments made by the House to the XXX Bill]…”; and in any such case the motion shall identify the clauses or schedules or amendments in question.

(9) A Consent Motion may only be moved by a Minister of the Crown and may be moved without notice.

(10) Proceedings under this order may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption.

83N. Reconsideration of bills so far as there is absence of consent

(1) Where a legislative grand committee decides on a Consent Motion under Standing Order No. 83M to withhold consent to a bill or any clause or schedule of a bill or any amendment-

(a) the bill shall be set down for reconsideration unless a Minister of the Crown moves a motion for the bill to be reconsidered (and any such motion may be made without notice, the question on any such motion shall be put forthwith and, if the motion is passed, the House shall proceed forthwith to reconsideration), and

(b) any order for the third reading of the bill shall be discharged.

(2) Reconsideration of the bill shall be for the sole purpose of considering amendments to the bill to resolve matters in dispute as a result of the withholding of consent.

(3) Paragraphs (2) and (4) to (8) of Standing Order No. 83L, and Standing Order No. 83M, shall apply following reconsideration of a bill in relation to the bill so far as reconsidered as they apply in relation to a bill; but as if-

(a) in Standing Order No. 83L(4)-

(i) the reference to any amendment since second reading were a reference to any amendment made on reconsideration, and

(ii) sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) were omitted, and

(b) in the case of any matter, there were a deemed certification in relation to the area or areas to which any relevant previous certification under Standing Order No. 83L(2) or (4) related if there would not otherwise be a certification in relation to that area or areas.

(4) If, following reconsideration of a bill and the steps taken by virtue of paragraph (3), a legislative grand committee withholds consent to the whole bill (whether or not amended on reconsideration), the bill may not be given a third reading and shall not pass.

(5) Paragraph (6) applies if, following reconsideration of a bill and the steps taken by virtue of paragraph (3), a legislative grand committee withholds consent to-

(a) any clause or schedule of the bill (whether or not amended on reconsideration), or

(b) any amendment to the bill, but does not withhold consent to the whole bill.

(6) The bill shall be amended so as to remove any provisions of the bill which are not agreed by the House and any relevant legislative grand committee; and it is the bill as so amended which proceeds to its next stage.

(7) A Minister of the Crown may move a motion for the bill as so amended to be considered again (“consequential consideration”); and such a motion may be made without notice and the question on any such motion shall be put forthwith.

(8) If the motion is passed, the House shall proceed forthwith to consequential consideration of the bill as so amended; and any order for the third reading of the bill shall be discharged.

(9) Consequential consideration of the bill as so amended shall be for the sole purpose of considering minor or technical amendments in consequence of the removal of provisions under paragraph (6).

(10) Proceedings on reconsideration or consequential consideration, or a motion for reconsideration or consequential consideration, may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption.

(11) References in the standing orders of this House to consideration of a bill on report shall, so far as relevant and subject to paragraph (12), include reconsideration or consequential consideration of a bill under this order.

(12) In its application by virtue of paragraph (11), Standing Order No. 72 (Consideration of bill as amended in committee of the whole House) has effect as if the words “, as amended in a committee of the whole House,” were omitted.

83O. Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages

(1) The Speaker shall consider any motion relating to a Lords amendment to a bill or to any other message from the Lords in respect of a bill.

(2) The Speaker shall certify the motion if, in the Speaker’s opinion, it-

(a) relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence, or

(b) relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (2) a motion relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence if it or any provision of it-

(a) relates to a Lords amendment, or an item in another message, which would, if agreed, result in-

(i) a clause or schedule as amended which relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence,

(ii) a new or unamended clause or schedule which so relates and is within devolved legislative competence, or

(iii) the omission of a clause or schedule which so relates and is within devolved legislative competence, or

(b) contains proposals which would, if agreed, so result.

(4) The Speaker shall also certify the motion if, in the Speaker’s opinion, it or any provision of it-

(a) relates to a Lords amendment, or an item in another message, which would, if agreed, result in a clause or schedule, which relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence, ceasing to so relate or to be within devolved legislative competence, or

(b) contains proposals which, if agreed, would so result.

(5) Any motion certified under paragraph (4) shall be certified as relating exclusively to the area to which the clause or schedule relates (and there shall be no certification as to devolved legislative competence).

(6) The same motion may be certified in relation to different areas under paragraphs (2) and (4) or either of them.

(7) If a division is held on a motion certified under this order, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) in the case of a motion certified in relation to England, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) in the case of a motion certified in relation to England and Wales, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, and

(c) in the case of a motion certified both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, a majority of Members, a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, vote in support of the motion.

(8) The Speaker shall, in selecting motions relating to Lords amendments or other messages, have regard to the extent to which such motions are drafted so that they can be certified under this order by virtue of every provision of them meeting the test in paragraph (3)(a) or (b) or (4)(a) or (b).

(9) If a motion relating to a Lords amendment or other message is disagreed to under this order because one of the groups voting in the division has not voted in support of it while another has, the decision of the House shall be-

(a) in the case of a motion to disagree (or agree) to a Lords amendment or an item in another message, to disagree with it, and

(b) in any other case, such decision as would have the effect of leaving the bill so far as it relates to that matter in the same position as it was before the Lords amendment or other message was received from the Lords.

(10) The Speaker shall announce any decision under paragraph (2) or (4) to the House.

(11) This order does not apply in relation to-

(a) any motion relating to a bill which was not eligible for certification under Standing Order No. 83J, and

(b) any of the following motions-

(i) any ways and means motion or motion for a money resolution,

(ii) any programme motion,

(iii) any order of consideration motion,

(iv) any motion of, or relating to, the Reasons Committee, and

(v) any other motion of a similar kind to a motion falling within any of paragraphs (i) to (iv).

(12) In this order-

(a) references to motions are to be read as including, so far as relevant, references to amendments to Lords amendments and references to amendments to the bill, and

(b) the reference in paragraph (3)(a)(i) to clauses or schedules as amended includes, in particular, a reference to clauses or schedules which would be amended by virtue of their territorial application being modified otherwise than in the clauses or schedules themselves.

(13) Paragraphs (2) to (4), (7) and (8)(a) of Standing Order No. 83J apply for the purposes of deciding under this order whether clauses or schedules relate exclusively to England or to England and Wales and are within devolved legislative competence as they apply for the purposes of the certification of clauses or schedules under that order; and, in the case of a bill which relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, paragraph (6) of that order also applies for the purpose of deciding under this order whether clauses or schedules so relate.

CERTIFICATION OF INSTRUMENTS AND MOTIONS: GENERAL

83P. Certification of instruments

(1) The Speaker shall-

(a) consider every instrument to which this order applies, and

(b) certify any such instrument which, in the Speaker’s opinion-

(i) relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, and

(ii) is within devolved legislative competence.

(2) An instrument-

(a) relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence if every provision of it relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence;

(b) relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence if every provision of it relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence.

(3) Paragraphs (2) to (4), (6) and (7) of Standing Order No. 83J apply for the purposes of this order; and as so applied those paragraphs have effect as if-

(a) references to a bill were to an instrument, and

(b) references to a clause or schedule were to a provision of an instrument.

(4) In deciding whether to certify an instrument under this order the Speaker may consult two members of the Panel of Chairs who are appointed for this purpose by the Committee of Selection on a session by session basis.

(5) The Speaker shall announce any decision under this order to the House.

(6) This order applies to any instrument (whether or not in draft) upon which proceedings may be taken in pursuance of an Act of Parliament where the instrument-

(a) meets any of conditions A to C, and

(b) is not a report within paragraph (1)(a) to (c) of Standing Order No. 83R.

(7) Condition A is that the instrument-

(a) stands referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee pursuant to paragraph (3) of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees), or

(b) does not stand so referred because sub-paragraph (a) of that paragraph applies to it.

(8) Condition B is that a member has given notice of a motion of the kind mentioned in paragraph (4)(a) of Standing Order No. 118 in relation to the instrument and the instrument-

(a) stands referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee, or

(b) has been set down for consideration in the Chamber on a particular day.

(9) Condition C is that the Regulatory Reform Committee has made a recommendation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2) of Standing Order No. 18 (Consideration of draft legislative reform orders etc.) in relation to the instrument.

83Q. Deciding the question on motions relating to certified instruments

(1) This order applies to the following motions-

(a) a motion to approve a certified instrument;

(b) a motion of the kind mentioned in paragraph (4)(a) of Standing Order No. 118 in relation to a certified instrument;

(c) a motion to disagree with a report of the Regulatory Reform Committee that contains a recommendation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 18 in relation to a certified instrument;

(d) an amendment to a motion within sub-paragraph (a) or (b).

(2) If a division is held on a motion to which this order applies, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) a majority of Members, and

(b) a majority of Members representing qualifying constituencies,

vote in support of the motion.

(3) In this order-

(a) “a certified instrument” means an instrument which has been certified under Standing Order No. 83P as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales;

(b) “qualifying constituencies” means constituencies in the part of the United Kingdom to which the instrument has been certified as relating exclusively.

83R. Deciding the question on certain other motions

(1) This order applies to the following motions-

(a) a motion to approve-

(i) a report which has been laid before the House under paragraph 5 of Schedule 7B to the Local Government Finance Act 1988 (local government finance report) and which contains a determination under section 78 of that Act (revenue support grant), or

(ii) a report which has been laid before the House under section 84A of that Act (revenue support grant: amending report);

(b) a motion to approve a report which has been laid before the House under section 52ZD of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 (referendums relating to council tax increases: principles);

(c) a motion to approve a report which has been laid before the House under section 46 of the Police Act 1996 (police grant);

(d) a motion for a resolution under section 26(2)(b)(ii) of the Higher Education Act 2004 (student fees);

(e) an amendment to a motion within sub-paragraph (d).

(2) If a division is held on a motion to which this order applies, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) a majority of Members, and

(b) a majority of Members representing qualifying constituencies,

vote in support of the motion.

(3) In this order “qualifying constituencies” means-

(a) in the case of a motion within paragraph (1)(a), (b), (d) or (e), constituencies in England;

(b) in the case of a motion within paragraph (1)(c), constituencies in England or Wales.

CERTIFICATION OF FINANCE BILLS, INSTRUMENTS AND MOTIONS

83S. Modification of Standing Orders Nos. 83J to 83N in their application to Finance Bills

(1) In their application in relation to a bill within paragraph (2), Standing Orders Nos. 83J to 83N shall have effect with the modifications in paragraphs (3) to (5).

(2) A bill is within this paragraph if-

(a) it is a Finance Bill, or

(b) it is a bill which, before second reading, only contained provision which would be within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill (or would be if the provision was to take effect in the current financial year).

(3) In Standing Order No. 83J-

(a) in paragraph (1)(b)(i) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(b) in paragraph (2) after “Wales” (in both places) insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(c) after paragraph (4) insert-

“(4A) A clause or schedule which relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland is within devolved legislative competence if it would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to make any corresponding provision for Scotland in an Act of that Parliament.”;

(d) in paragraph (5) after sub-paragraph (b) insert “;

(c) relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence if every clause and every schedule of it relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence”;

(e) in paragraph (6) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”; and

(f) after paragraph (11) insert-

“(12) The test in paragraph (3)(a), (4)(a) or (4A) is also met if the clause or schedule concerned sets a rate of income tax in respect of any kind of income for a person who is resident in the United Kingdom for tax purposes but is not a Scottish taxpayer where the corresponding rate for a Scottish taxpayer may be set by a resolution of the Scottish Parliament under Chapter 2 of Part 4A of the Scotland Act 1998 (and the reference in paragraph (7) to the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament includes a reference to that Chapter)”.

(4) In Standing Order No. 83L, in paragraph (2)(b)(i) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”.

(5) In Standing Order No. 83M-

(a) in paragraph (1) after “Wales” (in each place) insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(b) for paragraph (4) substitute-

“(4) If a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move Consent Motions which are to be passed by more than one legislative grand committee-

(a) the order in which the Consent Motions are to be considered is:

(i) any motion to be considered by the Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland),

(ii) any motion to be considered by the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales), and

(iii) any motion to be considered by the Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(b) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee which is to consider the first Consent Motion,

(c) on moving that motion, the Minister shall also inform the committee of the terms of any other Consent Motion to be moved in any other legislative grand committee,

(d) any debate in the first legislative grand committee may also relate to any other Consent Motion to be moved in any other legislative grand committee,

(e) on conclusion of proceedings in the first legislative grand committee-

(i) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee which is to consider the next Consent Motion,

(ii) a Minister of the Crown shall forthwith move that motion, and

(iii) proceedings in the second legislative grand committee shall be brought to a conclusion forthwith, and

(f) on conclusion of proceedings in the second legislative grand committee, sub-paragraphs (e)(i) to (iii) shall apply in relation to any third Consent Motion and a third legislative grand committee as they apply in relation to the second Consent Motion and the second legislative grand committee.”;

(c) in paragraph (5) for “(4)(d)(iii)” substitute “(4)(e)(iii) and (f)”; and

(d) in paragraph (6) for “second Consent Motion” substitute “Consent Motions”.

83T. Modification of Standing Orders Nos. 83P and 83Q in their application to financial instruments

(1) In their application in relation to a financial instrument, Standing Orders Nos. 83P and 83Q shall have effect with the following modifications.

(2) In Standing Order No. 83P-

(a) in paragraph (1)(b)(i) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(b) in paragraph (2) after sub-paragraph (b) insert “;

(c) relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence if every provision of it relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence”; and

(c) in paragraph (3) for the words from the beginning to “apply” substitute “Paragraphs (2) to (4A), (6), (7) and (12) of Standing Order No. 83J (as modified by Standing Order No. 83S(3))”.

(3) In Standing Order 83Q(3)(a) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”.

(4) For the purposes of this order an instrument is a “financial instrument” if it is made or proposed to be made in exercise of powers conferred by (and only by)-

(a) an Act which resulted from a Finance Bill;

(b) a provision of an Act which would have been within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill.

83U. Certification of motions upon which a Finance Bill is to be brought in which would authorise provision relating exclusively to England, to England and Wales or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland

(1) This order applies to any founding motion which, if passed, would-

(a) authorise a bill to include provision which would be within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill, or

(b) authorise a Finance Bill to include provision which would not be within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill.

(2) The Speaker shall-

(a) consider every motion to which this order applies, and

(b) certify any such motion which, in the Speaker’s opinion, falls within paragraph (3), (4) or (5).

(3) A motion falls within this paragraph if it would, if passed, only authorise a bill to include provision which-

(a) relates exclusively to England, and

(b) is within devolved legislative competence.

(4) A motion falls within this paragraph if it would, if passed, only authorise a bill to include provision which-

(a) relates exclusively to England and Wales, and

(b) is within devolved legislative competence.

(5) A motion falls within this paragraph if it would, if passed, only authorise a bill to include provision which-

(a) relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and

(b) is within devolved legislative competence.

(6) In deciding whether to certify under this order a motion to which this order applies, the Speaker may consult two members of the Panel of Chairs who are appointed for this purpose by the Committee of Selection on a session by session basis.

(7) The Speaker shall announce any decision under this order to the House.

(8) Paragraphs (2) to (4A), (7) and (12) of Standing Order No. 83J (as modified by Standing Order No. 83S(3)) apply for the purposes of this order; and as so applied those paragraphs have effect as if references to a clause or schedule were to a provision.

(9) In paragraph (1) “founding motion” means a motion upon which a bill is to be brought in.

83V. Deciding the question on motions certified under Standing Order No. 83U

(1) If a division is held on a motion which has been certified under Standing Order No. 83U, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) a majority of Members, and

(b) a majority of Members representing qualifying constituencies,

vote in support of the motion.

(2) In this order “qualifying constituencies” means-

(a) in a case where the motion concerned was certified as falling within paragraph (3) of Standing Order No. 83U, constituencies in England;

(b) in a case where the motion concerned was certified as falling within paragraph (4) of that standing order, constituencies in England or Wales;

(c) in a case where the motion concerned was certified as falling within paragraph (5) of that standing order, constituencies in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

LEGISLATIVE GRAND COMMITTEES

83W. Legislative Grand Committees

(1) There shall be-

(a) a Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(b) a Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales), and

(c) a Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland).

(2) The Legislative Grand Committee (England) shall consist of all Members representing constituencies in England.

(3) The Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) shall consist of all Members representing constituencies in England and all Members representing constituencies in Wales.

(4) The Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) shall consist of-

(a) all Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) all Members representing constituencies in Wales, and

(c) all Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland.

(5) A Deputy Speaker or a member of the Panel of Chairs may chair a legislative grand committee.

(6) The functions of the Legislative Grand Committee (England) shall be-

(a) to consider any bills committed or recommitted to the committee in accordance with Standing Order No. 83K, and

(b) to consider any Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M which relate to the committee.

(7) The functions of the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) and the Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) are to consider any Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M which relate to them.

(8) Any Member who is not a member of a legislative grand committee may take part in the deliberations of the committee but shall not vote or make any motion or move any amendment.

83X. Legislative Grand Committees: supplementary

(1) The procedure of this House applicable to a committee of the whole House shall, so far as relevant, be applicable to a legislative grand committee.

(2) Accordingly, references in the standing orders of this House to a committee of the whole House or to the House in committee, or similar references, shall be read as references to the relevant legislative grand committee.

(3) Paragraphs (1) and (2) do not apply to Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee).”

In Standing Order No. 12 (House not to sit on certain Fridays), in line 20, after “notices of” insert “Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M (Consent Motions for certified England only or England and Wales only provisions) and of”.

In Standing Order No. 51 (Ways and means motions), in line 12, after “forthwith” insert “or, in the case of a motion to which Standing Order No. 83U applies, forthwith upon the announcement of the Speaker's decision with respect to the motion under that standing order”.

After Standing Order No. 63(4) (Committal of bills not subject to a programme order) insert-

“(5) In the case of a bill certified by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England and being within devolved legislative competence-

(a) committal under this order is subject to Standing Order No. 83K (Committal and recommittal of certified England only bills), and

(b) committal under this order to a public bill committee is accordingly to a public bill committee to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies.

(6) Nothing in this order enables a bill to be committed to any legislative grand committee other than to the Legislative Grand Committee (England) in accordance with Standing Order No. 83K.”

In Standing Order No. 64 (Notices of amendments, &c., to bills), in line 2, after “schedules” insert “, of Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M (Consent Motions for certified England only or England and Wales only provisions)”.

In Standing Order No. 73 (Report of bills committed to public bill committees), in line 4, after “bill committee” insert “or the Legislative Grand Committee (England)”.

In Standing Order No. 83A (Programme motions), in line 30, after “and” insert “up to and including”.

In Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees)-

(a) in line 2, after “reading” insert “or in legislative grand committee or on reconsideration or consequential consideration”, and

(b) in line 14, after “reading” insert “or in legislative grand committee or on reconsideration or consequential consideration”.

In Standing Order No. 83C (Programming sub-committees)-

(a) in line 22, after “and” insert “up to and including”,

(b) in line 62, after “and” insert “up to and including”, and

(c) in line 75, after “and” insert “up to and including”.

In Standing Order No. 83D (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings in public bill committee or in committee of the whole House)-

(a) in the title, after “House” insert “etc.”, and

(b) in line 2, after “bill committee” insert “, in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) when exercising functions under Standing Order No. 83W(6)(a) (Legislative Grand Committees)”.

In Standing Order No. 83E (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration or third reading)-

(a) in the title for “or” substitute “and up to and including”,

(b) in line 2, after “and” insert “up to and including”, and

(c) in line 22, at end, insert-

“(5) In the application of this order to proceedings on a Consent Motion in legislative grand committee, the references to the Speaker in paragraph (2) are to be read as references to the Chairman of Ways and Means or either Deputy Chairman.”

After Standing Order No. 83F(7) (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments), at the end of line 35, insert-

“(8) Where a single question would be put under paragraph (3)(a), (4)(a) or (7) in circumstances where some or all of the amendments concerned are certified under Standing Order No. 83O (Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages) in relation to a particular part or parts of the United Kingdom, the Speaker shall put forthwith-

(a) a single question on any amendments for which the certification is in relation to England,

(b) a single question on any amendments for which the certification is in relation to England and Wales,

(c) a single question on any amendments for which the certification is both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, and

(d) a single question on any amendments for which there is no certification.

(9) Where a single question would be put under paragraph (6) in circumstances where, if there were (or are) separate motions to agree in relation to each of the remaining Lords amendments, some or all of the motions would be (or are) certified under Standing Order No. 83O (Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages), the Speaker shall put forthwith-

(a) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) motions certified in relation to England, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments,

(b) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) amendments certified in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments,

(c) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) motions certified both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments, and

(d) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) motions which would not be (or are not) certified, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments.

(10) If a division is held on a question put under paragraph (8) or (9), the amendments shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (a) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (b) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales,

(c) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (c) of that paragraph, a majority of Members, a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, and

(d) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (d) of that paragraph, a majority of Members,

vote in support of them.

(11) Paragraph (9) of Standing Order No. 83O shall apply to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (10) above on a question as it applies in relation to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (7) of that order on a motion.”

In Standing Order No. 83G (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the Lords)-

(a) in line 12, after “shall” insert “, subject to paragraphs (6) and (7),”, and

(b) at the end of line 14 insert-

“(6) Paragraph (7) applies where, if there were (or are) separate motions to agree in relation to each of the remaining Lords proposals, some or all of the motions would be (or are) certified under Standing Order No. 83O (Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages).

(7) The Speaker shall put forthwith-

(a) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions certified in relation to England, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals,

(b) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions certified in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals,

(c) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions certified both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals, and

(d) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions which would not be (or are not) certified, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals.

(8) If a division is held on a question put under paragraph (7), the proposals shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (a) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (b) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales,

(c) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (c) of that paragraph, a majority of Members, a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, and

(d) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (d) of that paragraph, a majority of Members,

vote in support of them.

(9) Paragraph (9) of Standing Order No. 83O shall apply to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (8) above on a question as it applies in relation to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (7) of that order on a motion.”

In Standing Order No. 83I (Programme orders: supplementary provisions), in line 2, after second “House” insert “or in legislative grand committee”.

In Standing Order No. 86 (Nomination of general committees), in line 33, at end insert-

“(iv) for the consideration of any bill certified by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J (or, in the case of recommittal after recertification, Standing Order No. 83L) as relating exclusively to England and being within devolved legislative competence, the Committee of Selection, in nominating Members to a public bill committee, shall have regard to the composition of that part of the House consisting of Members representing constituencies in England; and no Member who does not represent a constituency in England shall be nominated to such a committee”; and

(2) The new Standing Orders, and the changes to Standing Orders, made by this order do not apply in relation to-

(a) any bills which have had a Second Reading in this House on or before the day on which this order is made,

(b) any bills introduced in the previous Parliament which have been carried over into this Parliament,

(c) any instruments or draft instruments laid on or before the day on which this order is made, and

(d) any motions agreed to on or before that day.

This is the third time that the proposals have been debated by the House, and the second occasion for debate that I promised back in July. I have endeavoured throughout this process to listen to the views expressed by hon. Members about the way all this is conducted and to respond as positively as possible, notwithstanding the timetable commitments in our manifesto.

I should add that the reason we have timetabled votes for 4 pm is that I was aware there were likely to be a number of Divisions, and I was particularly concerned to ensure that Members from constituencies a little further away could get away to catch planes and trains to get back to their constituencies this evening.

I will endeavour to keep my remarks relatively short so that all Members who want to speak can do so, and I hope other Front Benchers will do the same. I want to start by setting out briefly why we are pursuing this strategy. If Members will forgive me, I will do that before I take interventions. I will obviously be happy to take interventions a little later.

I am a staunch Unionist. I support the devolution of powers to the different parts of the United Kingdom. I want the United Kingdom to remain secure and intact. I was delighted when the Scottish people voted clearly to stay in the United Kingdom. The whole is greater than the sum of our parts. Indeed, I have great affection for all the countries of the United Kingdom, so I cheered when Wales and Northern Ireland secured their places in Euro 2016 and was dismayed last Sunday when Scotland was so narrowly pipped at the post at Twickenham. I will always cheer the home nations in competition.

I have, however, listened with concern to some in England who have expressed less enthusiasm than me about the future of the UK. I am sure I am not alone in having experienced strong views from an English perspective about the nature and extent of devolution, and the sense that somehow the other parts of the United Kingdom are getting something that the English are not. It is clearly not in the interests of the Union for us to see mounting resentment in any part of the United Kingdom. That is why I looked carefully at the polling evidence that suggests a majority of Scots think the approach we are taking is fair.

To all of those in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland who share my concern for the future of the Union, I say this: it cannot be in the interests of any of us to see the English people becoming cynical about the Union and even perhaps wishing for its end. That is why I think these proposals will help to secure what most reasonable people would think was a fair settlement across the United Kingdom.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give way?

[Chris Grayling]

I will give way in a while, but I will just make some progress before I do.

When the Prime Minister asked me to take over dealing with the issue of English votes for English laws—I should emphasise that it is sometimes English and Welsh votes for English and Welsh laws—I looked very hard at the proposals I inherited from my predecessor. I found what I believe to be a sensible set of proposals, which fit well with the Government’s strategy on devolution. I found a package that, taken overall, should strengthen the Union through giving greater devolution to all parts of the United Kingdom—the Scotland Bill and the draft Wales Bill, which has been published in the past few days. I found a package that creates fairer Parliaments and fairer Assemblies, and that gives the English a strong voice on English matters without—I emphasise, without—excluding MPs from other parts of the United Kingdom from participation in this House.

[Andrew Gwynne]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

The answer to that question is that in 1997, in the wake of the general election, the right hon. Gentleman’s party passed a devolution package meaning that, on issues such as health and education, he had no right to vote on issues affecting his constituents, but that people sitting in the Assembly did. Members of the House of Lords can vote on English matters, but it is of course for the Assembly in Cardiff to vote on matters affecting his constituents in areas such as health, education and transport.

[Andrew Gwynne]

If the Leader of the House does not think it is unfair for Lord Thomas of Gresford to be able make a judgment on legislation on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) cannot make a judgment, what about Lord Roberts of Llandudno, who has fought five general elections for the Liberal Democrats and lost all five, but will be able to make laws on which Welsh MPs cannot have a say?

[Chris Grayling]

The irony of this, as I keep saying, is that both the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson)will continue to be able to vote on matters relating to health, education and other issues in relation to the constituencies of Government Members, with the exception of those who represent Wales and Scotland, whereas they cannot vote on those issues in relation to their own constituencies. That is the point of the devolution settlement that Labour set up.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 15th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and his family for their involvement in an iconic aircraft in the history of this country. He must be very proud that they have played a part in its construction. For so much of our heritage, we rely on groups of volunteers who give up their time to protect for future generations what has been. He describes a very important group of those volunteers who are doing a great job; I commend them for it.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Changes to the state pension as part of the Pensions Act 1995 and the Pensions Act 2011 have adversely impacted, not just once but twice, on a number of women born in the 1950s. May we have an urgent debate in Government time to discuss the impact of those pension changes on women born in the 1950s and potentially look at solutions to put right the injustices?

[Chris Grayling]

These issues have been debated in this House extensively over the years. Yes, there are difficult decisions to take when deciding to raise the state pension and having to set a framework within which to do that. These decisions were taken under Governments of both parties. We have all recognised the need to increase the state pension age and the logic of equalising the pension age between men and women, and we have tried to do that in as sensitive a way as possible. It has been extensively debated in this House, but I do not think we could move to further changes now.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 16th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, and we will continue to discuss that issue. It is important for us to set out that vision for the Union. We want a strong Union with strong devolved Assemblies in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We want fairness for the English. We want local communities and cities in England to have greater responsibility for managing their affairs. Ultimately, however, we want a strong Union in which we all work together.

I might add that the hon. Gentleman, in Northern Ireland, benefits from what I believe to be one of today’s finest and most popular tourist attractions, namely the Iron Throne.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Reference has already been made to the Chancellor’s proposed planning reforms, which will involve a near-presumption in favour of housing on brownfield land. Given that that is a substantial departure from the current plan-led system, in which such pieces of land are identified for other uses and particularly for employment use, will the Leader of the House first tell us how those measures will be brought to the House for discussion, and secondly what the time scales will be?

[Chris Grayling]

There are regular opportunities to discuss planning matters. We will be debating the Finance Bill next week, at which point such matters can be raised, and there will be Treasury questions and Department for Communities and Local Government questions when we return in September. It is important that we should move ahead with the development that we need, and that we should use sites that are sitting idle as the focal point for that development. That is the Government’s strategy. We do not want sites that could be used to meet urgent housing need to sit idle for years and years. That does happen in some places.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

This is very much a concern for Members on both sides of the House. When we look at the challenges for our individual local hospital trusts, we realise that this is one of the biggest pressures they face. I remind my hon. Friend of the work my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary is already doing to try to address this issue. He will no doubt have heard my hon. Friend’s comments today. We really do need to get to grips with this properly.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

May I take the Leader of the House back to 1980? Baroness Thatcher’s Government were one year old, the Commodore Pet computer was the height of technological advancement and the first Pacer trains were developed as a short-term solution to rail capacity in the north of England. May I now bring him forward 35 years? With electrification cancelled, the Chancellor merely offers us an Oyster card to use on our now decrepit Pacer trains. May we have an urgent statement from the Transport Secretary on rail strategy for the north of England?

[Chris Grayling]

We have just had a statement on rail strategy and there will be further opportunities. I remind the hon. Gentleman of two things. First, he makes reference to the manufacturing of trains in the north. It was under the Government of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown that manufacturing in this country almost halved as a proportion of our national income. Secondly, Labour was in government for 13 years and had money in the bank, but electrified only 10 miles of railway. Under this Government, we have started to redress that woeful failure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, the hon. Lady and her colleagues will have the opportunity to raise this matter today and next Monday and Tuesday during the debate on the Budget, of which infrastructure investment is very much a part. It is on the agenda.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Not in the north.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman has only to look back at 13 years of Labour Government during which time absolutely nothing was done about this. We at least are starting a process of modernising our infrastructure. It is years too late, but that is because Labour did nothing about it.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 18th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman’s point is the flipside of what we heard a moment ago. Although there is great care in this country, there is sometimes awful care. What I find encouraging at the moment is the willingness of the Care Quality Commission simply to close bad homes. It is not acceptable to leave people in that condition and anyone who is running a care home that is substandard in looking after our elderly should expect a knock on the door and should know that their livelihood is in danger. I commend the CQC for ensuring that that happens in enough cases to send out a message.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

In the past 12 months, the eight NHS hospital trusts in Greater Manchester have spent more than £100 million on employing agency staff. May we please have a statement from the Health Secretary about the training, recruitment and retention of nurses in the NHS so that our health service can be both financially and medically sustainable in the future?

[Chris Grayling]

This subject is debated regularly in this House and will continue to be so. I know that health service managers and Ministers in the Department of Health are focused on the unnecessarily high level of cost. Personally, I am strongly in favour of creating banks within the NHS rather than externally generated ones, and some trusts are now doing that—certainly, that is beginning to happen in my area. It is right and proper that we try to bring down costs in the health service where we can, and this is an important way of doing so.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 11th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who is one of two Members who are volunteer responders. I commend him for his role in that extremely important work. I also commend his local ambulance service for what it is doing, which is enormously important. Effective first response and the presence of defibrillators can make the difference between life and death. The Government take it very seriously, and we are therefore providing additional funds for more defibrillators around the country to try to save lives.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

In the early hours of Sunday morning, 21-year-old Dominic Doyle was stabbed in Denton. So far, five people have been arrested and charged. May we have a statement from the Home Secretary on what more the Government can do to tackle the scourge of knife crime?

[Chris Grayling]

Any stabbing is both unacceptable and tragic for those involved. It would not be right for me to comment on the specific case because it is under investigation, but, by chance, the Home Secretary is sitting on the Bench near me and will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I know that she will choose to respond in due course when she can, given that the matter is currently being investigated.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 4th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to praise the Chief Whip, who has made a brilliant start in his job. I would, however, have been slightly worried if he had had a rebellion in his first vote. There is a long tradition in this House, only occasionally broken, of Chief Whips simply getting the job done, rather than advertising what they are doing. I suspect that my right hon. Friend will prefer to keep things that way rather than change the practice of the Chief Whip remaining a silent participant in the House.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House now answer the points made by the shadow Leader of the House on the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill? A great many Members, on both sides of the House, from Greater Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds and Hull wanted to speak in yesterday’s oversubscribed debate on devolution to the cities and regions in England. There is clearly a great demand here, and it is doing this House a disservice to start the Bill in the other place.

[Chris Grayling]

First, it may be appropriate to wish the hon. Gentleman a happy birthday. May I point out to him that there is an Opposition day next week, and the subject of that debate has not been announced yet? A couple of Opposition Members have expressed an interest in discussing the issues he raises, so there is an ideal opportunity for them and they should speak to the shadow Leader of the House.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Thursday 28th May 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity next Thursday in questions to the new Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate you, Mr Speaker, on your re-election.

Given that the Gracious Speech signalled the Government’s intention to devolve more powers to those city regions with metro mayors, will the Leader of the House ensure that when he brings forward his proposals to change the Standing Orders of the House in relation to English votes for English laws there will be no unintended consequences impacting on the 27 Members of Parliament from Greater Manchester who, to use his own logic, will be able to vote on health matters relating to his constituents, but not on health matters relating to their own constituents?

[Chris Grayling]

When we bring forward our proposals, there will be plenty of opportunity for this House to scrutinise them, but we are not offering to Manchester the chance to take the kind of powers that are being offered to the Scottish Parliament. When we bring forward those proposals, which I think are right for England, the interesting question for Labour is whether it will support them. Are English Labour MPs going to defend the right of their own constituents or are they going to put party advantage first?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We have had a discussion on the Traveller issue. It is an area on which we both feel strongly, and one that requires attention after the general election as soon as a Conservative Government are elected.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

T5. Does the Justice Secretary not sense a little bit of irony in his hijacking of the 800th anniversary celebrations of Magna Carta at a time when his Government are constantly removing people’s rights and removing access to justice? Is that not hypocritical?

[Chris Grayling]

We hear the same old tune from the Opposition time and time again. They oppose the changes we have made, but they will not commit to reverse them. Until and unless they turn around and say, “We will reverse the changes you have had to make because of the mess that was left behind” I will not take them seriously.

Prison Overcrowding

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Monday 16th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That is at the heart of our reforms to the probation service, which will mean, crucially, that later this year we will begin to provide support, supervision and mentoring to short-sentence prisoners when they leave prison. At the moment, they get nothing at all and are left to their own devices, and nearly two thirds of them reoffend quickly. That is the biggest blot on our criminal justice system. Unlike the last Government, we are doing something about it.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

In a spirit of openness, perhaps the Justice Secretary will tell the House how much the emergency prison places that he has bought from private prisons are costing the public purse, so that we can ascertain whether they are more cost-effective than the prison places that he has closed.

[Chris Grayling]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the marginal cost of an additional place within a prison is much lower than the overall cost of running a prison.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My view is that it is not appropriate for the Court to seek to make law for this country in such an area, which should be a matter for Parliament. My hon. Friend will understand, particularly given the realities of coalition politics, the care we are taking with our response, but he should be in no doubt that both I and the Prime Minister believe that the ruling takes us into a place where we should not be.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Notwithstanding the difference between the two coalition parties in government, does the Secretary of State not believe that there are no examples of the Strasbourg Court defending our rights where domestic courts have failed?

[Chris Grayling]

That is an interesting point. Although we understand and respect the differences between the coalition parties on this matter, the Labour party is dancing on a pin. One week, it says that it opposes votes for prisoners; the next week, it supports the rulings of the European Court. As our party sets out its proposals over the next 18 months, it will be fascinating to see exactly where Labour stands.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Closure decisions are never easy for the staff and communities involved. I regret the need to take such decisions, but we have to continue the process of new for old in the prison estate. I can give my hon. Friend an assurance that we will ensure that voluntary redundancy or transfers will be available for the staff affected. We aim to transfer as many staff as possible to other prisons and we will, of course, make sure there is appropriate and adequate coverage in my hon. Friend’s part of the country. That is the least we can do to protect her constituents.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State not agree that, in the light of the recent inspection report of Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons, the prison estate is actually getting worse, not better?

[Chris Grayling]

I am afraid that I do not agree. We are moving as fast as we can to modernise the prison estate, to bring in new, quality accommodation. Next year we will open four new house blocks, which will provide modern, updated accommodation. If the hon. Gentleman visits some of the older, Victorian prisons, he will see for himself that they are poor places to deliver proper rehabilitation services: there is not enough space for workshops or training facilities. I think that a modern prison estate is much better for all of us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Tuesday 18th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am aware of the circumstances that prompt my hon. Friend’s question. He makes a valuable point and I would like to discuss the issue with him further. I am open to providing appropriate and more broadly based support to victims if that proves necessary.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

15. What recent representations he has received on coroners.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Grayling and Andrew Gwynne

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I am sorry to follow such a highly negative speech from the Opposition spokesman on an occasion when the Government are bringing before the House an historic Bill that lies at the heart of an historic set of reforms that will reshape the relationship between the Government, the citizen and the welfare system. The Bill strikes a balance between fairness and responsibility, and crucially, it sets out the framework for creating a more effective welfare system that is fit for the 21st century. Above all, the Bill puts in place many more of the building blocks that we will need if we are to tackle the blight of deprivation that affects too many of our communities and too many of our citizens. In the past 13 years, millions of our citizens were left on the sidelines of society, trapped by a culture of dependency, facing financial barriers to a return to work, and with inadequate support to help them to make a return to the workplace, even if their financial position made it sensible for them to do so. All that must now change.

We have had a good and lively debate, and I congratulate all hon. Members who participated in it. Time does not permit me to refer to all the points raised, but I will happily answer questions or letters, and indeed, those who serve on the Public Bill Committee can raise many of the detailed issues in the days and weeks ahead.

Not least among those contributions was a particularly disappointing start by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), the shadow Secretary of State. He and the Leader of the Opposition have both openly backed the principles of the reforms, and they even put some of the Bill’s measures, such as the housing benefit reforms, in their party’s manifesto. Yet what did we hear today? They have done a U-turn. They have been captured by the left wing of their party, and are reverting to the politics of type. That is a real shame, because the shadow Secretary of State was right to say that the reforms would benefit from consensus. It is therefore unhelpful to hear Opposition Front Benchers spend so much time seeking dividing lines rather than working with the Government to deliver reforms that will transform this country. The shadow Secretary of State may not realise it, but there is a great degree of consensus about the reforms out there in the country, among people who believe that it is time that we sorted out the mess that has built up around our broken benefits system—a mess that has left millions trapped in dependency.

One of the other disappointments of the debate was that so many Opposition Members reverted to type in the language that they used. Too many couched this debate in the kind of language that I thought we had left behind 20 years ago. Let us be absolutely clear. The reforms are designed to help those in our society who are struggling. The universal credit will help to lift hundreds of thousands of adults and hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty. We are challenging for the first time in far too long the cycle of deprivation that incapacity benefit represents for too many of our fellow citizens. We are providing more individualised support to help people to move back into the workplace.

There are some tough decisions, but for what reason do hon. Members believe that we must take those decisions? It might have something to do with the fact that the Labour Government left us with the biggest deficit in our peacetime history and we must pick up the pieces. As the shadow Secretary of State so aptly reminded us, there was no money left when we took office.

I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) for saying that the best social security policy is a job. He is absolutely right, and that principle—that simple premise—lies at the heart of our reforms and the change that we are seeking to deliver.

Let me also address the point about the gaps in the Bill, which was raised many times this afternoon. I remember being up against the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), the shadow Minister, in Public Bill Committees when he was in government. Some of those Bills had virtually no substance at all to them. This is a bit like the poacher turning gamekeeper, but it is pretty ripe for him to turn round and say that not all the details have been included. What I would say to the House is this. As we work through the Bill in Committee, we will deliver detail to the Opposition at each stage on how we plan to put the measures into practice. We will answer questions and be as open as we possibly can, including in saying where work still needs to be done. The Committee will, I hope, be an exercise in discussion and debate, and we will inform it to the best of our abilities, because these reforms are vital. Making work pay will transform lives, especially for the poorest, through the universal credit, the single taper and getting rid of the complexity that has dogged our system. Members on both sides of the House will know about all the problems that we have had with tax credits over the years and all the constituency cases that have come to us. They should realise that this Bill sweeps all that away. A simpler system for our constituents and a simpler system for society—this is a better way of doing things.

Many of the clauses in the Bill are also vital to the conditionality changes that will underpin the delivery of the Work programme, helping to deliver much better back-to-work support for those struggling to get into work. We have always been clear that there needs to be a clear two-way contract between individuals and the state. We will provide much better back-to-work support and a system that makes work pay, but refusing that support cannot be an option for those with the potential to work. This Bill will place clear and firm responsibilities on their shoulders, and will bring clear consequences if they fail to live up to those responsibilities.

This Bill is about taking a step in the right direction towards a more common-sense welfare system that targets resources more effectively to the vulnerable, but also restores credibility in our welfare system. That is why we have tackled the insanity of a system that can pay housing benefit to people in quantities far beyond what those in work might expect to be able to afford when finding a house for themselves. That is also why we are introducing the benefit cap, so that we remove perverse disincentives to work. Last week I sat with an adviser in a Jobcentre Plus office who said to me, “The thing I find strange is this: why am I organising payouts to people who get far more money than I do, and I’m doing a job?” That is the kind of situation that we have to address.

That is also why we are getting to grips with reforming the disability living allowance, so that we can move away from an unsustainable welfare state and a system where we leave people for long periods, untouched, uncontacted and unchecked. We do not ask the question, “Is this still right for you?” That is what the changes are about, and they are necessary.

Despite the rhetoric, Opposition Members have said that they believe that it is time for reform, and this is why we are pressing ahead with it. We are also sorting out the mess that is child maintenance in this country. Finally, we are doing something that I am very proud of—something that Opposition Members called for, but which the previous Government did not do: putting an end to jobcentres having to accept adverts from sex clubs or lap-dancing clubs in a way that exploits the most vulnerable women in our society. In short, the Welfare Reform Bill is about putting responsibility, fairness and common sense back into the heart of the welfare system, while ensuring that we deliver value for money for hard-working taxpayers.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Grayling]

No, I am not going to give way.

Before I conclude, let me briefly touch on a couple of points raised by hon. Members. The Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), raised the issue of contributory ESA. I want to make two points to her. The first is that all those who move off incapacity benefit who fit into the contributory bracket will be given access to the Work programme regardless of their status. That is important in ensuring that they receive back-to-work support. However, I would also remind her that the changes to ESA simply bring it into line with JSA. It is a simple principle that, if someone has financial means in their household, the state will not support them. The state will be there to provide a safety net for those who do not have the means to support themselves. That is a sensible principle. We have extended the period beyond six months, so that we can deliver support to people with health problems, but it is sensible to have an aligned system. I will be happy to talk further with the hon. Lady in Committee or in the Select Committee.