High-Speed Rail

Debate between Charles Walker and Andrea Leadsom

Thursday 31st March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I have made my main points. I have made them before in this Chamber, and I shall continue to make them, because they are rational. A lot of people in the industry also support my view, which is not based on nimbyism but on what Britain really needs. Britain does not need HS2; it needs more investment in conventional rail and, indeed, in rail freight.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Walker. For several months, the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) and I have attempted to secure this debate via the Backbench Business Committee. We have been preparing for this incredibly important debate for a long time, and I was assured only yesterday by the Table Office that my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) would make a few brief comments, and then I would be the first speaker.

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

It is always helpful if the Table Office conveys to the Chair the discussions it has had with Members’ researchers. If there has been confusion, I will get to the bottom of it.

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[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

Order. We have had too many questions.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I am struggling to follow some of my hon. Friend’s numbers, because I think that he might be looking at the numbers from the original business case, not from the current one. I do not want to address his points specifically because those numbers do not quite register with me. I apologise for that.

Passenger forecasts are another major assumption in the business case, relying on a 216% rise in demand for train travel. That figure remains wildly optimistic, in spite of being downgraded from the original business case, in which growth of 267% was forecast. The Department for Transport’s own national travel survey shows that overall transport demand is no longer growing with GDP. Eurostar’s passenger numbers in 2009 had reached only 37% of the level that was forecast, as a result of building the HS1 link. The Public Accounts Committee took evidence from the Department for Transport on that point and was reassured by it that lessons had been learned and that any future major project would factor in more severe downside assumptions—that has clearly not been the case. The only comparable forecasts for long distance rail travel by 2036 are from Network Rail, which predicts a range of growth of 45% to 89%, versus that forecast by HS2 Ltd in its original business case of 133% growth by 2033. I urge the Department for Transport to look closely again at that assumption.

Of course, in cash terms HS2 will never pay for itself. Once built, only one third of the total claimed benefits will be captured through fares. The value of the net revenues once it has been built—with a presumption of fares of £14 billion, less operating costs of £6 billion over a 60-year project life—will cover only less than half of the capital costs. At a time when families up and down the country are feeling the pinch, we must make sure that infrastructure projects offer value for money. Many people would argue that not a penny will be spent until 2015 anyway, but between 2009 and 2015 the Department for Transport expects to spend around £1 billion just on preparing the way for high-speed rail.

Secondly, on the environmental impact, HS2 Ltd itself says that the project is, at best, carbon neutral. It predicts that 65% of passengers will either transfer from existing rail services, where faster trains inevitably increase carbon emissions, or are additional new journeys as a result of the faster trains, which will also increase emissions. The shorter journeys by air that will transfer to HS2, will ironically, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) said, provide more capacity at our regional airports for cheaper long-haul flights. It is estimated that the modal shift from car to high-speed train will be approximately 7%. In fact, HS2 Ltd forecasts that the traffic volumes on the M1 will be reduced by only 2% as a result of HS2. So, it is not green. There will also be a significant environmental impact during construction, as well as permanently, to the English countryside, wildlife and historic sites.

Thirdly and fourthly, on the prospects for job creation and regeneration, the Department for Transport claims that HS2 will create 30,000 new jobs. Some 9,000 will be construction jobs and are likely to be temporary. The rest are skewed towards property development and retail near stations.

Onshore Wind Energy

Debate between Charles Walker and Andrea Leadsom

Thursday 10th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

Order. Many colleagues want to speak. Can we have pithy interventions?

[Andrea Leadsom]

Absolutely. As I said earlier, I completely applaud the Government’s intention to enable communities to share in the benefits of wind farms; it is absolutely right. It should have been done before now. I completely agree that where wind farms go ahead, communities should benefit. None the less, I slightly take issue with the point that my hon. Friend made about the amount of time that wind turbines are actually working. The latest statistics show that, on average in the UK, they operate between 25% and 30% of the time.

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[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

That is not a point of order. In his summing up, the Minister might want to refer to the letter that he sent to the hon. Lady, but it might just be a personal letter that we all receive from Ministers.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I can confirm that the letter was simply a piece of information that was put on the Department of Energy and Climate Change website. The Minister’s office sent me a link to it, so I can confirm that the information is in the public domain.

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[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point and it is one that I completely agree with.

There is now a fairly gloomy picture in this country, where it appears that the taxpayer foots the bill for wind farms, communities pay the price of the loss of amenity and the wind farm developer takes all the reward without even needing to prove that there is a benefit in terms of reducing our carbon footprint. So I again applaud the Minister for the way in which we are moving to a different environment, in which communities will have a greater say and will share in the proceeds that accrue from the building of wind farms.

Having looked into this issue in great detail in the last few weeks, I accept that there are marginal benefits from onshore wind. However, it is very difficult to suggest that onshore wind will mean that we can reduce our reliance on conventional power sources. By the very nature of wind, that will not be possible. Nevertheless, wind should be present in the mix of what we are trying to achieve: reducing our carbon footprint, plugging the energy gap, and ensuring good energy security.

Having said that, the benefits of onshore wind have been hugely exaggerated by the developers who stand to make huge sums from the taxpayer incentives. In addition, we are genuinely adding to fuel poverty in this country and costing consumers and businesses billions of pounds because of this battle to develop onshore wind. Another study, by the Centre for Policy Studies, suggested that 61% of people are either fairly unwilling or very unwilling to see their electricity costs rise to pay for onshore wind development.

So what are the solutions? First, as I have said, I welcome the Localism Bill. It goes a long way to providing solutions that will put people back in the driving seat. I welcome the commitment to sharing the financial benefits of wind farms between developers and the communities that host them. I thoroughly welcome neighbourhood planning, which will allow local communities to exclude or include wind farms within their neighbourhood plans.

Secondly, if those neighbourhood plans include wind farms, they can be up to a capacity of 50 MW. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to take my proposed amendment to the Localism Bill as his own and to adopt it. What I have proposed, with a great deal of support from hon. Friends and colleagues across the House, is that the capacity for onshore wind farms that come under the neighbourhood plans should be 100 MW, in line with offshore wind farms, rather than the 50 MW that is the current capacity. The reason is that otherwise there would be the perverse incentive for developers to apply for planning for a 52 MW capacity wind farm to get around the neighbourhood plans. Therefore, I urge the Minister to consider my amendment seriously.

Thirdly, we need to look very carefully at the rights of communities, to ensure that we have the right balance in this sector. In Denmark, for example, there is a minimum distance from habitation of four times the height of the wind turbine and in Scotland the guidance says that there should be a 2 km exclusion zone. There is certainly more that we in this country can do to ensure that people can defend their immediate environment.

Fourthly, we should look very carefully at how we ensure that developers go to those areas of the UK that are very windy and not to those areas that are marginal in terms of the amount of wind that they receive and that are only profitable because of the taxpayer benefits that they offer.

My fifth point is that we in this country should be looking much more closely at other sources of renewable energy. In particular, I want to highlight ground source heat pumps, which have been described as

“the most energy-efficient, environmentally clean and cost-effective space-conditioning systems available.”

There is an advert for them.

There are also tidal and marine technologies, which are more predictable and reliable than wind, and they are cheap to maintain once they are established. Hydroelectric power is even more reliable than tidal power, because it allows water to be stored to meet peak demand.

I also want to make a call for action on the renewable heat incentive. Last week, I saw a company in my constituency that turns methane from landfill sites into biofuel. The machines that the company uses to do that generate heat, which the company plans to use in polytunnels in Kent, allowing the strawberry-growers there to compete with our colleagues on the continent. What could be better than trying to use that long chain of renewable energy to provide yet more energy?

So what we need is cheap, reliable sources of energy and to have a better balance between onshore wind, which has such a high cost for communities, and other sources of renewable energy. In conclusion, onshore wind plays its part but as a country we need to balance the national priorities with the right of local communities to have their voices heard.

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

Order. We have an extraordinary number of colleagues who wish to speak. We have an hour and 40 minutes left before the wind-ups by the Front-Bench spokesmen, so I will leave colleagues to do the mathematics.