National Health Service (Procurement, Patient Choice and Competition) (No. 2) Regulations 2013

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Baroness Cumberlege

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, we could have a whole debate on profit. Every person who sells their talents and does work has to profit. You cannot live without a profit unless you are receiving social care. Profit, of course, funds all our pensions, and a whole lot of other things—but I do not want to go into all that, because I think it is irrelevant to this debate.

I think that we should just look at what the private, independent sector does at the moment. South London, a very stressed area, has had a lot of problems with hospitals not having enough capacity. The Labour Government introduced urgent care centres, and they were introduced into south London. It is interesting to see that the regulator, the Care Quality Commission, recently described the service as first class; it is open seven days a week, from eight until eight. Better still, it was described by one of its users as the,

“best NHS experience I have ever had in my life”.

I am sure that that person was not only right about the experience but right that, whoever provides the service, it is the NHS—for it is the NHS that has paid for it through a contract. So privatisation is not about the provider; it is about reaching into your wallet to pay for the service for which the state should pay. That is the fundamental ethic of the NHS.

In southern England, an independent provider has ensured that 99% of target patients are screened for breast cancer, which compares with the national average of 77%. The provider also invested £4 million in new technology for outreach services. My third example—and I could go through lots—is in the north-east, where an independent provider of sexual health services has been able to screen 35% of 15-24 year-olds for chlamydia, which is significantly higher than the national average of 24%. It also saved commissioners money by reducing duplication across services.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I am sorry to interrupt at this time of night, but I am conscious of the fact that the noble Baroness is citing lots of examples of where private sector provision and competition has produced good results. Is she equally aware that the Care Quality Commission had to remove two licences from urgent care providers for an inadequate service that could not be allowed to be sustained for even a few days longer after it was detected? They are not all success stories, by any means.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, of course I accept that. We accept that in the NHS, do we not? You have only to look at the recent inquiries to know that the NHS is not perfect. What I am trying to put over is that by using a wider range of providers you can improve services for the NHS, but of course you need regulation and somebody ensuring that the quality is high. It is not perfect in all cases—of course I accept that—but it is not perfect in the NHS either. I do not think that any of your Lordships would not rejoice in better services that enhance patient care being provided. That is what we are all about. My view is that competition involves not a yes/no ideological choice but a pragmatic and nuanced judgment about how, or whether, to make use of it.

That is what brings me on to these regulations. There is much in them that will strengthen the NHS. I do not want to see them annulled or to see another delay. The NHS has been in something of a difficulty with all the changes that are being made, and it is now time to settle down and get on with it. So I do not want to see further delay. On the detail of the regulations, first and foremost I think that Regulation 2 of Part 2, which sets out the procurement objectives, is very good. It says—and I paraphrase a little—that NHS England and CCGs, when procuring healthcare services, must consider the needs of the people who use the services. So it is not about the staff but about the needs of the people who use the services.

There is a lot of rhetoric, as there has been for years, about putting patients first. However, we know that that rhetoric is not always put into practice. Again, I refer to some of the recent inquiries that we have had. In fact, we should be very concerned, as is the King’s Fund, that the UK has the second highest rate of mortality amenable to healthcare of 16 high-income countries. We should be deeply worried that we have the second highest death rate among those comparable countries. The NHS does need to change and improve. The think tanks and the people who think endlessly about the NHS all agree that it needs change. The Labour Party agrees that it needs change. The debate is about how to do it.

Regulation 2(b) refers to,

“improving the quality of the services”,

as the purpose of the legislation. Surely that is what we all want. Poor care is very expensive. It involves returning to hospital to put right what has gone wrong in the first place, litigation, poor staff morale and misery for users, families and friends. Regulation 2(c) is about efficiency. We all have a duty to ensure that money is not wasted and services are efficient. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has just talked about that and what we need to do to ensure that we have commissioners of the highest order. Surely that is what we are trying to achieve.