Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Baroness Sheehan

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, Amendment 40 relates to the carbon take-back obligation. We had an excellent debate towards the end of Committee about the question of what government policy is on the supply side of the equation of tackling climate change and environmental impact. On one hand, we had a group of Peers who were talking about the need to increase our extraction of fossil fuels and to move into fracking and other types of exotic extraction. On the other hand, we had an amendment which said, “Absolutely no more—turn off the licensing completely”.

It struck me that there needs to be a path through those two positions. We need to start making this industry responsible for the impact of its product. When we look back, we will wonder how we allowed ourselves to carry on extracting fossil fuels in an unlimited way and putting them into the market without the Government having a policy on that aspect of the problem.

This amendment is designed to introduce a policy that would make the extractors of fossil fuels—the oil, gas and coal producers—responsible for the greenhouse gas impact of their product. A requirement to bury back the greenhouse gases arising from those products would be phased in over time. If the industry cannot find sufficient carbon capture and storage opportunities to permanently store those greenhouse gases, it should be paying a buyout price of £200 per tonne of CO₂, representing what is expected to be the social impact price of carrying on this unlimited extraction.

Should the UK be seeking to do this in what is essentially a global market? The international dimensions are at the core of why we need to do it. At the moment, as individual countries and companies, we all tell ourselves that it is important to extract every last gram, ounce or therm of gas, oil and coal out of our economy because others are going to have not to use theirs. Everyone is incentivised to think that they will be the one burning the last therm and the last tonne. Continuing with that approach is a collective international suicide pact. If every country carries on extracting to the very last atom of carbon left in our oil and gas fields, we will go well beyond 1.5 or 2 degrees. In doing so, we will remain hooked on this commodity. It will remain cheap, affordable and available. We will not make the break from fossil fuels that we know we need to in order to address not just climate change but the security, resilience and efficiency of our energy systems.

It is important that we start the debate about government policy on the continued extraction of fossil fuels in this way. At the moment there is no policy. That is why it falls to the planning inspectors to decide whether we should have a new coal mine and to other regulators to keep exploiting the economic value of the North Sea for oil and gas without reference to its future unsustainability. It is not sustainable now. We need to signal a move and acknowledge that this industry needs to adapt. If it wants to pursue carbon capture and storage, let us oblige it to do so.

I am perfectly happy with the Government supporting the first carbon capture and storage projects to get them started and for cost discovery, but there should not be a continued subsidy of that solution. We should oblige the industry to do it. In making it responsible for the impact of its products, it will discover whether it is cost effective, whether it can be done cheaply and whether carbon capture and storage is real. Let us allow industry to discover that. If we give it the obligation, everyone will move forward together on an equal playing field. We could take the responsibility away from the taxpayer and the bill payer and give it to the industry. Quite frankly, at the moment it has more than enough resources and profits to be able to invest in that and to find the least-cost solutions.

Admittedly, Amendment 40 is a big thing to introduce on Report. I am simply seeking to start a debate about this. I hope that I receive some support and that it will be considered in the other place. I look forward to the Minister’s comments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 40 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington—I hope I can refer to her as my noble friend. I have done so in solidarity with her and in acknowledgement of her dexterity and expertise in handling the excesses of the oil and gas sector, rather than from a steadfast conviction that the carbon take-back scheme is the deterrent needed to curtail the enthusiasm of the financial markets in their continuing and increasing support for the sector.

I want to find out more about the scheme and to raise some questions posed by it. I get that this novel scheme is cleverly devised, accounting for not just the carbon neutrality of the production of fossil fuels but their deployment, subsequent combustion and release into the atmosphere as greenhouse gases. I support that, but I also have concerns.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Baroness Sheehan

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I realise that I am a little late arriving for this debate. Having been here from the start of this afternoon’s proceedings, I hope that the House will allow me to make my contribution.

I will speak to Amendments 53, 54 and 57, in the name of my noble friend Lord Teverson. I support Amendment 56 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake. I will not bore your Lordships’ House with the details of why my name appears on Amendment 56 in the Marshalled List with a line through it. Suffice it to say, I support the measures in it.

However, I support even more strongly Amendments 53, 54 and 57, which aim to get rid of the hydrogen trials altogether. Although hydrogen has a role in decarbonising our future in many sensible ways, domestic heating is categorically not one of them. I would recommend anyone who is not convinced by that statement to look at the work of the Hydrogen Science Coalition, a group of independent academics, scientists and engineers who give their time voluntarily and have no public or private vested interests. Its briefing is very clear on how it arrives at its conclusion that there is overwhelming evidence against the use of hydrogen for heating homes in the UK and in favour of using heat pumps and district heating networks. Equally, it makes a well-argued case against the provisions of Clause 111 that compel consumers to take part in hydrogen heating trials, not least because the introduction of hydrogen into UK homes will significantly increase the risk of serious explosions and fires, as well as increasing exposure to NOx emissions, which pose a significant public health risk.

To back up its own analysis, it cites the overwhelming techno-economic evidence against the use of hydrogen for heating buildings compared with other sources. There have been 37 independent studies on the use of hydrogen for heating since 2019, by organisations such as the IPCC, the IEA, McKinsey, Imperial College London, the Potsdam Institute, the University of Manchester, the Wuppertal Institute, Element Energy, the International Council on Clean Transportation, the Energy Transitions Commission, et cetera. Every one of these studies has ruled out hydrogen playing a major role in heating buildings because it will be too expensive and inefficient compared to other clean alternatives such as heat pumps and district heating. Too expensive is putting it mildly; it will be six times more expensive than going down the heating networks route.

Chris Skidmore, chair of the net zero review, said in a recent article in the Times that he

“did not think the UK should embrace the idea of repurposing gas networks to run hydrogen boilers, a proposal that is being trialled at a pilot project at homes in Ellesmere Port in Cheshire.”

The House of Lords Environment and Climate Change Committee recently said that hydrogen is

“not a realistic replacement for natural gas”

and is “not a serious option” for heating. A House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report in December 2022 said that hydrogen is likely to play only a limited role in home heating and is not a panacea. Lastly, in a report in January 2022, the International Renewable Energy Agency—IRENA—said that residential heating is the lowest-priority application for hydrogen

“because heat pump solutions and district heating options already exist.”

I apologise for labouring the point but it is important for the people in the trial villages of Ellesmere Port and Teesside. The provisions of the Energy Bill that give gas companies a new power of entry into homes to cut residents off the gas network without their consent are particularly worrying. The bottom line is that the Bill should not be promoting hydrogen heating trials that expose consumers to health and safety risks and excessively high energy costs.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in this group but I do not propose to detain the House for long. My views on hydrogen are relatively well known, and we had a good debate in Committee on Clauses 111 and 112. I support the previous speeches and the approaches taken to get the Government to think again about the need for these trials to be included in the Bill.

I welcome government Amendment 55, which would provide for regulations that would make some rules for the trials a “must”, rather than a “may”, which is at least an acceptance that this is a prerequisite. We need clear regulations setting out the rules that must be adopted and followed by anyone involved in these trials. But I do not think that goes far enough, because there are still a number of unaddressed issues. Therefore, I am quite sympathetic to the idea of simply removing this from the Bill and thinking again. I am also sympathetic to the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, who have suggested that the Government ought to undertake a certain number of measures before they embark on a decision about these trials, including involving statutory agencies such as the Environment Agency in the trials, and the Health and Safety Executive on safety issues, so that we can properly assess their environmental impact—so that we actually are using them to trial something.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Baroness Sheehan

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I am sorry to speak a second time—I am not sure whether I am allowed—but may I speak to Amendments 130A and 130B? In my excitement I forgot to speak to them. Those amendments in my name seek to address the carbon removals questions in the Bill.

Amendment 130A is to try to interrogate the Government’s amendments to the definitions of carbon removals, as stated in the Climate Change Act. My amendment would reinstate reference to forestry and other physical activities in the UK. I think this amendment is necessary because we do not want to see definitions used in the Climate Change Act, which are foundational to our understanding of what we need to do to tackle climate change domestically, to somehow allow vague processes such as the purchasing of offsets or some other financial instrument to be eligible for the net-zero accounting. I seek reassurances on that. I also seek reassurances that we acknowledge that forestry and land use need to be referenced alongside mechanical sinks to keep the system holistic and inclusive. So I am probing on those two questions: forestry and land use, and making sure we are talking about physical activity and not financial chicanery or accounting trickery.

I feel quite passionate about Amendment 130B. I am sure the UK will emerge as a world leader in this regard. If we are to become the centre of a market or set of policies that are economy-wide in decarbonising our system, we will have to get to grips with the MRV—the monitoring, reporting and verification of carbon removals—to get to a net-zero position. It is hugely important. When you burn a tonne of fossil fuel the impacts are certain and very low in error bars, but when it comes to the biospheric removal of carbon in particular, there are huge uncertainties and an absolute paucity of data. It really has not been looked at comprehensively enough, especially now that large sums of money may be resting on this approach to reaching net zero.

I urge the Minister and the department to really assess what the UK could do to set some gold-standard regulations regarding carbon removals. Let us start the debate with this Bill, pursue it and continue with it. Given that we are at the forefront of reaching these challenging carbon budgets that we have set ourselves, I have no doubt that carbon removals will have a role to play. But let us do it in a world-class way and not use it as a weasel-word excuse for allowing fossil fuels to continue, without the certainty that those removals are genuine, additional and permanent and can offset the almost permanent damage that we know occurs from the release of fossil fuels. It is hugely important that we do this. I tabled this as an opportunity to spark a debate, and I hope we will come back and consider it in more detail. The UK has a great potential role to play in this area.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, as a member of the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee, I took part in the report we produced on batteries. The genie is out of the bottle on domestic EVs. That is going to happen; I think we are well on the road to better and better battery technology.

When the committee examined transport, we heard that batteries are heavy—a battery to power a bus would be very heavy—so there is a role for hydrogen in public transport for return-to-base vehicles where hydrogen does not have to be moved too far. Where there is a limited number of filling stations, that is a model that could work. Shipping and heavy industry, such as cement, are other applications for hydrogen.

My noble friend Lady Randerson mentioned fuel cells. We found in our report that for some reason the Government are not backing research on fuel cells to the extent that they could. Fuel cells would be another potentially sensible source of power for heavy transport vehicles, so I support the basic thrust of my noble friend’s amendment.

Amendments 130A and 130B, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, are really crucial. We are going to have to look at carbon removals, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said earlier. We need to do it in a way that gives confidence against greenwashing, of which there is far too much. The only way to do that is if accounting for carbon is rigorous.