Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Worthington Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 58, to which I have added my name. First, I thank the Minister for his constructive approach, and for listening to my amendments in Committee and responding by introducing this amendment, which addresses all of the points in my Committee amendments. I am most grateful. I must also thank his officials for the work that they have put into drafting and finding an acceptable way forward, and for engaging with me throughout the process. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington for her support throughout.

I break down the benefits of this amendment into three broad areas. First, it continues the work that the Government are doing to create a level playing field for low-carbon technologies. We heard the welcome news in the recent Budget Statement that nuclear will be considered as environmentally sustainable, or taxonomy aligned, under the UK green taxonomy. In a similar vein, the renewable transport fuels obligation amendment will allow nuclear to benefit from a subsidy scheme that is already available to renewable operators. This sends a clear message to investors that the Government sit squarely behind nuclear as an environmentally sustainable energy source. It also brings out the important principle of technological independence—to let the market do its job to find the most efficient solutions, but also because for net zero we need to throw the kitchen sink at the problem, if we are going to achieve it.

Secondly, the amendment directly enables a whole range of near-term projects that will help to kick-start the green hydrogen and recycled carbon fuel industries within the UK. With recycled carbon fuels, there are a number of industrial projects being scoped that will be enabled by this amendment—for example, Project Dragon, to use industrial waste gases from Port Talbot to produce ethanol from which recycled carbon fuels, including sustainable aviation fuels, can be derived. By setting strict rules for how to account for emissions, savings of around 70% can be generated when compared with the baseline of using fossil fuels. Those projects, enabled by this amendment, will be an important enabler for decarbonising transport fuels and moving towards a circular economy, saving significant amounts of greenhouse gas emissions in future.

For nuclear, there are near-term plans to produce hydrogen from Sizewell B for use in Sizewell C construction, and also in other nuclear projects, including SMRs and AMRs. Particular economic benefits may be gained through using nuclear power to produce hydrogen—for example, high temperature electrolysis, using heat from the nuclear reaction to produce hydrogen much more efficiently than cold electrolysis. Further down the line, using the heat from high temperature reactors to produce hydrogen directly through the sulfur-iodine cycle has the potential to increase efficiency further beyond traditional electrolysis techniques. If the Government are to meet their ambitious hydrogen production targets, nuclear needs to be part of the picture, which will be enabled by this amendment and help kick- start green, or pink, hydrogen production—I sometimes lose track of the colours—in the UK.

Thirdly, the amendment enables these fuel sources to be eligible for the sustainable aviation fuels, or SAF, mandate. Both recycled carbon fuels and nuclear will have a key role to play here. RCF has the potential to produce large volumes of SAF in the near term; in the longer term, the combination of direct air capture and hydrogen production from nuclear could allow power-to-liquid sustainable aviation fuel to be produced economically.

As I said, I am very grateful to the Minister and his officials for working together to make this important change to the Bill.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I shall speak briefly to Amendment 58, which the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, has so eloquently spoken to. I definitely support the nuclear element of this amendment, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing this to our attention, as well as to the Minister for taking it on proactively. However, I have a question around the inclusion of fossil-derived sources of energy in this approach. I am not one to rule things out, and I think that we need to use all the tools available to us, but there is a material difference when you are using a fuel derived from fossil fuels, in that once it is combusted the CO₂—the greenhouse gases—will be readmitted to the atmosphere. Can the Minister say a bit more about how something derived from nuclear electricity, which is intrinsically clean, to create a fuel, is different from the waste derived from a fossil source of energy? I just want clarification on that point.

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[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 17. I will not take up much of the House’s time, because this is just about consistency.

The Government have defined a UK low-carbon hydrogen standard, which was updated in July this year, and it includes guidance and a calculator tool for hydrogen producers to use for greenhouse gas emissions reporting and sustainability criteria. It has been designed to demonstrate that low-carbon hydrogen production methods can meet a greenhouse gas emissions test and threshold, and this amendment would require the regulations to have regard to that standard when assessing the eligibility of low-carbon hydrogen production. Using the low-carbon hydrogen standard will ensure that there is consistency for the industry and its users, and will provide them with the degree of certainty that they are looking for when developing their projects.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 18 in respect of who should be paying a hydrogen levy. I do not consider that hydrogen is going to play a large role in our broader economy. I think it will have specialised uses: it will be used where it is already used, in the production of fertilisers and in certain chemical processes, and it may well be used as a back-up fuel in extremis when we have no other forms of storage. I say that because it is going to be a relatively expensive commodity, it is not going to be easy to handle and it is not necessarily going to be very safe. For those reasons, I think we are overexcited about hydrogen in general, and the Bill is overexcited about hydrogen—and probably, as a result, about carbon capture and storage, which will also be quite expensive.

The reason I lent my name to this amendment is that it seems particularly egregious to expect electricity billpayers to be picking up the price of this expensive commodity, which is not very safe and quite unlikely to be very useful. Therefore, I think it is really important that the Government listen, and listen to everyone outside this Chamber who is saying that we should not be loading any more costs on to electricity consumers but should be doing the opposite. I am looking forward to the Government taking on this issue to redress the balance of how we are tackling climate change and who is paying. At the moment, the electricity consumer is paying nearly everything and the gas consumer almost nothing.

It is time that we started to recognise the value of electricity. It is hugely efficient, and it can be indigenously produced from our nuclear and homegrown renewables and offshore wind. It is that which we should be supporting, not necessarily this rather expensive alternative. Gas, oil and coal companies will continue to promote it, but it is not for the electricity billpayer to pick up the tab. So I fully support Amendment 18.

I would love to hear a little more from the Minister on new subsection (3) inserted by Amendment 20 in relation to the regulations. It is my understanding that that will enable payments to be made back to consumers, but could those regulations also decide not to impose any hydrogen levies on electricity consumers? I would like to understand the extent to which those regulations could solve this problem.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I make reference to the Minister’s amendments, particularly the issue he highlighted of including the new subsection that would allow regulations to make provisions requiring that energy consumers benefit. I want to ask just one question on that. While we welcome that provision, there is a concern. If we are allowing regulations to make this provision, what guarantee is there that they will actually be used? Are the Government committing to using them, if they use Clause 66 powers?

I support all of my noble friend Lady Liddell’s comments on her amendment. The main amendment for me is that just referenced by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. We spent a significant amount of time talking about this area in Committee, so I will not go through all the detail. However, as the noble Baroness mentioned, in the circumstances we are in, with the extra pressure on the cost of living from energy bills, why are we looking at a situation where we could be asking householders to pay more money? I acknowledge that there will be further consultation but I hope that, as well as it being done thoroughly, its conclusions will lead to the spirit of our amendment. As shown in our amendments, we believe that the Secretary of State could put a levy on gas shippers but not on gas and electricity suppliers, thus preventing responsibility for the levies falling on households.

We need to reflect on the spirit of the Bill—the whole idea is that, while reforming energy systems, we do everything we can to protect consumers and their ability to pay their bills. Every possible action should be taken to minimise the impact on consumers, focusing always on affordability. I am disappointed that the Minister has not gone further on this point. Unless he indicates a willingness to do so, due to the strong feelings surrounding the protection of consumers from inflated bills, I am minded to test the opinion of the House.

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Moved by

[Baroness Worthington]

40: After Clause 98, insert the following new Clause—
“Chapter 4ACarbon take back obligationClimate policy for fossil fuel extraction(1) No licence for exploration or extraction of oil, gas, coal or peat (“fossil fuels”) may be granted unless the condition in subsection (2) is met.(2) The condition is that the licensee must agree to produce certification to the economic regulator that the percentage of carbon dioxide which would be emitted when the fossil fuels are extracted and completely oxidised set out in subsection (4) has in each year of operation been captured and disposed of by way of permanent geological storage.(3) The carbon dioxide captured and disposed of under subsection (2) must be either—(a) carbon dioxide removed from the atmosphere, or(b) carbon dioxide that otherwise would have been emitted to the atmosphere under normal business practice.(4) The percentage referred to in subsection (2) is—(a) for years starting from 2025 and ending in 2034, prescribed in regulations;(b) 100 per cent for subsequent years.(5) Where the condition in subsection (2) is not met, the licensee must pay a penalty of £200 per tonne of the carbon dioxide which is not captured.(6) In relation to existing licences for extraction of fossil fuels, no new fossil fuels may be extracted from 2045 without certified evidence that 100 per cent of carbon dioxide emissions which would be emitted when the extracted fossil fuels are extracted and completely combusted are captured and disposed of by way of permanent geological storage.(7) In this section—“emissions” has the meaning set out in section 97 of the Climate Change Act 2008;“permanent geological storage” means storage of carbon dioxide in geological and chemical formations with a view to the permanent containment of carbon dioxide.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment sets an escalating proportion of carbon dioxide for new fossil fuel extraction licences which must be permanently geologically stored, whilst setting a 2045 requirement for 100% geological storage in relation to existing fossil fuel extraction licences.

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[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, Amendment 40 relates to the carbon take-back obligation. We had an excellent debate towards the end of Committee about the question of what government policy is on the supply side of the equation of tackling climate change and environmental impact. On one hand, we had a group of Peers who were talking about the need to increase our extraction of fossil fuels and to move into fracking and other types of exotic extraction. On the other hand, we had an amendment which said, “Absolutely no more—turn off the licensing completely”.

It struck me that there needs to be a path through those two positions. We need to start making this industry responsible for the impact of its product. When we look back, we will wonder how we allowed ourselves to carry on extracting fossil fuels in an unlimited way and putting them into the market without the Government having a policy on that aspect of the problem.

This amendment is designed to introduce a policy that would make the extractors of fossil fuels—the oil, gas and coal producers—responsible for the greenhouse gas impact of their product. A requirement to bury back the greenhouse gases arising from those products would be phased in over time. If the industry cannot find sufficient carbon capture and storage opportunities to permanently store those greenhouse gases, it should be paying a buyout price of £200 per tonne of CO₂, representing what is expected to be the social impact price of carrying on this unlimited extraction.

Should the UK be seeking to do this in what is essentially a global market? The international dimensions are at the core of why we need to do it. At the moment, as individual countries and companies, we all tell ourselves that it is important to extract every last gram, ounce or therm of gas, oil and coal out of our economy because others are going to have not to use theirs. Everyone is incentivised to think that they will be the one burning the last therm and the last tonne. Continuing with that approach is a collective international suicide pact. If every country carries on extracting to the very last atom of carbon left in our oil and gas fields, we will go well beyond 1.5 or 2 degrees. In doing so, we will remain hooked on this commodity. It will remain cheap, affordable and available. We will not make the break from fossil fuels that we know we need to in order to address not just climate change but the security, resilience and efficiency of our energy systems.

It is important that we start the debate about government policy on the continued extraction of fossil fuels in this way. At the moment there is no policy. That is why it falls to the planning inspectors to decide whether we should have a new coal mine and to other regulators to keep exploiting the economic value of the North Sea for oil and gas without reference to its future unsustainability. It is not sustainable now. We need to signal a move and acknowledge that this industry needs to adapt. If it wants to pursue carbon capture and storage, let us oblige it to do so.

I am perfectly happy with the Government supporting the first carbon capture and storage projects to get them started and for cost discovery, but there should not be a continued subsidy of that solution. We should oblige the industry to do it. In making it responsible for the impact of its products, it will discover whether it is cost effective, whether it can be done cheaply and whether carbon capture and storage is real. Let us allow industry to discover that. If we give it the obligation, everyone will move forward together on an equal playing field. We could take the responsibility away from the taxpayer and the bill payer and give it to the industry. Quite frankly, at the moment it has more than enough resources and profits to be able to invest in that and to find the least-cost solutions.

Admittedly, Amendment 40 is a big thing to introduce on Report. I am simply seeking to start a debate about this. I hope that I receive some support and that it will be considered in the other place. I look forward to the Minister’s comments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 40 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington—I hope I can refer to her as my noble friend. I have done so in solidarity with her and in acknowledgement of her dexterity and expertise in handling the excesses of the oil and gas sector, rather than from a steadfast conviction that the carbon take-back scheme is the deterrent needed to curtail the enthusiasm of the financial markets in their continuing and increasing support for the sector.

I want to find out more about the scheme and to raise some questions posed by it. I get that this novel scheme is cleverly devised, accounting for not just the carbon neutrality of the production of fossil fuels but their deployment, subsequent combustion and release into the atmosphere as greenhouse gases. I support that, but I also have concerns.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I also pay tribute to all the work that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, has done. It is indeed a great mystery to all of us why she seemingly wishes to swap the lovely, warm, calm weather of southern England for California, but I suppose that will become clearer over time. I thank her for the contribution she has made, and I am sure that we will hear a lot more from her in the future.

I am happy to contribute to this debate on Amendment 40 and the issue of the carbon take-back obligation for fossil fuel extraction. The concept of such an obligation is indeed worthy of debate, but the noble Baroness will understand when I say that its inclusion in the Bill is a little premature. Our primary instrument to decarbonise the UK economy is the emissions trading scheme, which provides a market price for emissions of carbon dioxide, incentivising investment in decarbonisation and ensuring that it happens wherever—and however—it is most cost effective to do so.

Introducing a carbon take-back obligation now, at such a pivotal time for the development of CCUS in the UK, could create uncertainty for industry and have a detrimental delaying effect on investment, resulting in investors looking to opportunities that exist in many other countries—perhaps even in California; one never knows. Such an obligation could also increase the costs of CCUS, making UK production of steel, chemicals, refinery products and other industrial products more expensive than that of their competitors, potentially impacting on our industrial competitiveness. All these issues need further detailed policy consideration before further legislation can be considered.

As I mentioned to the noble Baroness before the debate, the CCUS Council is the Government’s primary forum for engaging with representatives across the CCUS sector, and we have indeed asked the council to consider and provide advice on carbon take-back obligations. The concept indeed warrants further consideration, but I am sure the noble Baroness will accept that it is not for this Bill at this time. With that explanation, I hope she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, to the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, for adding her name, to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for her support, and to the Minister for his comments. This is indeed my last outing before I depart after recess. I want to say thank you to everyone who has made me feel so welcome in the 12 years I have been here on and off, intermittently, on different Benches. It has been a privilege and I will genuinely miss it. When things are coming to an end, often you value them even more. Hopefully, I will be back—in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

On the amendment, I am encouraged that this idea is being picked up by the CCUS Council. It seems that it will be difficult for the oil, gas and coal sector to come forward with this as a united voice, but it would definitely be good for it. It would give it clarity and certainty and enable it to take back control of its choices of projects or investments. It would be able to do it from the private sector, knowing that it is obliged to do it, and it would create a market mechanism through which it could operate, which I believe would reduce costs overall to the consumer and to industrial customers. Industry is very good at finding solutions: give it an obligation, get the engineers on it and it will find solutions. It will determine whether the price will come down or whether indeed it will be better for it to pivot fully into a cleaner system based on electricity and clean electricity rather than continuing to take things out of the ground and burn them.

I have some sympathy with the belief that it is probably high time we stopped burning things and moved on, especially as we—Great Britain, the United Kingdom—have grown rich on the back of the industrial revolution that seems to be dragging on. However, we now know that there are alternatives. There is a cleaner, cheaper, more efficient system available to us using electricity wherever it is possible, and where it cannot be used, deriving clean fuels from that electricity. That is the future. The chemical industry and the chemical-based energy system will decline because it will not be able to compete with that manufactured clean alternative. We have to manage that decline and it is incumbent on Governments to help manage it fairly and transition us out of it. This sort of policy would do that, and the industry should embrace it. I hope that the other place will debate it and that a campaign will emerge around it. I look forward to watching that from sunny California, and I wish your Lordships all the best of luck with the end of the Bill. Thank you. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 40 withdrawn.

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Worthington Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I realise that I am a little late arriving for this debate. Having been here from the start of this afternoon’s proceedings, I hope that the House will allow me to make my contribution.

I will speak to Amendments 53, 54 and 57, in the name of my noble friend Lord Teverson. I support Amendment 56 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake. I will not bore your Lordships’ House with the details of why my name appears on Amendment 56 in the Marshalled List with a line through it. Suffice it to say, I support the measures in it.

However, I support even more strongly Amendments 53, 54 and 57, which aim to get rid of the hydrogen trials altogether. Although hydrogen has a role in decarbonising our future in many sensible ways, domestic heating is categorically not one of them. I would recommend anyone who is not convinced by that statement to look at the work of the Hydrogen Science Coalition, a group of independent academics, scientists and engineers who give their time voluntarily and have no public or private vested interests. Its briefing is very clear on how it arrives at its conclusion that there is overwhelming evidence against the use of hydrogen for heating homes in the UK and in favour of using heat pumps and district heating networks. Equally, it makes a well-argued case against the provisions of Clause 111 that compel consumers to take part in hydrogen heating trials, not least because the introduction of hydrogen into UK homes will significantly increase the risk of serious explosions and fires, as well as increasing exposure to NOx emissions, which pose a significant public health risk.

To back up its own analysis, it cites the overwhelming techno-economic evidence against the use of hydrogen for heating buildings compared with other sources. There have been 37 independent studies on the use of hydrogen for heating since 2019, by organisations such as the IPCC, the IEA, McKinsey, Imperial College London, the Potsdam Institute, the University of Manchester, the Wuppertal Institute, Element Energy, the International Council on Clean Transportation, the Energy Transitions Commission, et cetera. Every one of these studies has ruled out hydrogen playing a major role in heating buildings because it will be too expensive and inefficient compared to other clean alternatives such as heat pumps and district heating. Too expensive is putting it mildly; it will be six times more expensive than going down the heating networks route.

Chris Skidmore, chair of the net zero review, said in a recent article in the Times that he

“did not think the UK should embrace the idea of repurposing gas networks to run hydrogen boilers, a proposal that is being trialled at a pilot project at homes in Ellesmere Port in Cheshire.”

The House of Lords Environment and Climate Change Committee recently said that hydrogen is

“not a realistic replacement for natural gas”

and is “not a serious option” for heating. A House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report in December 2022 said that hydrogen is likely to play only a limited role in home heating and is not a panacea. Lastly, in a report in January 2022, the International Renewable Energy Agency—IRENA—said that residential heating is the lowest-priority application for hydrogen

“because heat pump solutions and district heating options already exist.”

I apologise for labouring the point but it is important for the people in the trial villages of Ellesmere Port and Teesside. The provisions of the Energy Bill that give gas companies a new power of entry into homes to cut residents off the gas network without their consent are particularly worrying. The bottom line is that the Bill should not be promoting hydrogen heating trials that expose consumers to health and safety risks and excessively high energy costs.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in this group but I do not propose to detain the House for long. My views on hydrogen are relatively well known, and we had a good debate in Committee on Clauses 111 and 112. I support the previous speeches and the approaches taken to get the Government to think again about the need for these trials to be included in the Bill.

I welcome government Amendment 55, which would provide for regulations that would make some rules for the trials a “must”, rather than a “may”, which is at least an acceptance that this is a prerequisite. We need clear regulations setting out the rules that must be adopted and followed by anyone involved in these trials. But I do not think that goes far enough, because there are still a number of unaddressed issues. Therefore, I am quite sympathetic to the idea of simply removing this from the Bill and thinking again. I am also sympathetic to the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, who have suggested that the Government ought to undertake a certain number of measures before they embark on a decision about these trials, including involving statutory agencies such as the Environment Agency in the trials, and the Health and Safety Executive on safety issues, so that we can properly assess their environmental impact—so that we actually are using them to trial something.

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I hope that, with the explanations I have been able to provide, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, will appreciate that the purpose of the trial is to provide important evidence for the strategic decisions that we will need to make on the future of heat decarbonisation. I hope that they have been reassured that these clauses are necessary for the safe and effective delivery of the trial, and will therefore consider withdrawing the amendment.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I want to press on the question of what is being trialled. The Minister mentioned feasibility, benefits and costs, but what about the environmental impacts of this trial? We are talking here about a global warming gas, and a very slippery gas because it is the smallest element—it escapes everywhere. Will the regulations contain measures to monitor the environmental impact of both the NO_x emissions in the home and the greenhouse gas impact of the hydrogen, which will leak when it is distributed that widely? Can that be included in the trial so we can also assess those disbenefits?

Finally, it is true that the only reason really that some houses might not qualify for a heat pump is if they are not very efficient. It is ironic that, for safety reasons, the leakier the house, the more likely it is to then be able to take hydrogen. This precious commodity, which is very expensive to produce and will be very inefficient, is being used in houses which are leaky and being made leakier to be made safer. It seems just so counter to everything we want to achieve on efficiency, resilience and climate change. I hope there will be a trial of the environmental impacts on air quality, climate change and energy efficiency, not just the benefits to the gas industry.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know the noble Baroness has strong views on electrification but let me reassure her that this is precisely the purpose of the trial. We need to use an existing network to find out what happens to hydrogen in an existing network. Clearly, environmental monitoring and checking for leaks and so on is a crucial part of it. It is one of the reasons we need to do it on an existing network in an existing community, to find out what happens outside of theoretical lab experiments where it is very easy to set up a trial with new pipework, new valves and new equipment. I have visited hydrogen demonstration houses up in Gateshead, my home area. It works very well but these are brand new properties, constructed with hydrogen appliances and new pipework. That is not a very good trial as to how it would work in the real world in existing communities. That is why we need to do the trial. The things that the noble Baroness asked about are exactly what we need to be checking and monitoring to judge the effectiveness of any hydrogen experiments in the real world.

I turn to Amendment 56, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. This amendment covers several aspects which I fully agree are important for the safe and effective delivery of the village trial. However, I assure noble Lords that the evidence that this amendment seeks to gather through a statutory consultation is already being gathered and will be reviewed by the department as part of our assessment process, following the submission of final proposals at the end of this month. As I said, in May 2022, we sent a joint letter with Ofgem to the gas networks setting out an extensive list of requirements that proposals for the trial should meet. This included requirements mentioned in the amendment, such as local support, costs, environmental impact and consumer protections, as well as many other important areas.

After the gas networks submit their proposals for the trial—later this week, as I said—the department will undertake a thorough assessment against the full list of requirements set out in the letter. That process will involve expert input from the various statutory bodies involved, including the Health and Safety Executive and Ofgem. We will publish the result of that assessment later this year, including the relevant evidence to explain our decision, and that will be available to all noble Lords. I reassure the House that we fully understand the importance of conducting the trial properly.

I touched on this earlier but the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the point about local support for the trial. I reiterate that we will go ahead with a trial only in an area where there is strong local support. The gas networks are working closely with local authorities, communities and Members of Parliament as they develop their trial proposals. My officials also meet regularly with the relevant local authorities. Final proposals for the trial will need to contain evidence of strong support from the local community, validated by an independent external source, such as a local council. Again, I am happy to meet the local Members of Parliament.

The networks are extensively consulting local residents to develop an attractive consumer offer tailored to the community. They have opened drop-in centres in both Whitby and Redcar where anyone can engage directly with them and ask questions about what the project means for them, and have held a number of public events.

Safety is of course fundamental, which is the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. Before any community trial can go ahead, the Health and Safety Executive will need to be satisfied that the trial will be run safely. No trial will go ahead until all necessary safety assessments have been successfully carried out. I hope noble Lords will accept my reassurances on that.

If it goes ahead, the trial will start in 2025 and provide vital evidence that will be required to enable the Government to make decisions in 2026 on any potential future role for hydrogen in decarbonising heat. I hope noble Lords will accept that undertaking another formal consultation would duplicate the work that the department and the gas networks are already doing, and could delay important milestones for ultimately meeting net zero.

I agree that the trial must be conducted properly, and I have already spoken about the additional consumer protections that will be in place for the trial. Those protections, which must be met by the gas networks, also mean that the trial must be delivered with minimal disruption to consumers.

I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords that the department will carefully consider all these factors in coming to a decision on the trial. Importantly, we will be closely examining the evidence and outcomes of the gas networks’ engagement with local authorities and consumers in the trial areas. I hope that, with the reassurances that I have been able to provide, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Heat and Buildings Strategy: Gas Boilers

Baroness Worthington Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the next Question is on the boiler upgrade scheme; his question might perhaps have been more appropriate there, but I agree with him. The Answer I gave earlier shows what we are doing to invest in upgrading existing skills. It is a long-term job over decades, as the MCS correctly said. I was at a reception with the MCS last week, talking to it about this very issue.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I agree with the Minister in his statement that there is a multiplicity of solutions for decarbonising heat. One very promising technology is the use of heat loops, or networked ground source heat pumps. These are much more efficient than even air source heat pumps and are an excellent technology that we should be trialling, perhaps instead of hydrogen.

Domestic Heat Pumps: Budget Underspend

Baroness Worthington Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can answer my noble friend directly: we have done lots of research on these matters. I will give him a couple of examples of existing offers. British Gas has a starting price for an air source heat pump of £2,999 and Octopus Energy is offering one for £2,500 including the upgrade grant that we are offering. It obviously depends on the circumstances of the property. There are huge number of variable factors, such as how many radiators you need—whether your existing radiators can be reused will depend on their size. There are a lot of different factors to take into consideration, but his point is ultimately valid, in that we have to make sure that the prices of heat pumps come down over time. As consumers get more used to them and volumes go up, I think that they will.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I request a similarly detailed answer from the Minister on the costs of the hydrogen trials. As he will know, I do not support this way of moving forward. However, had we taken the same approach to heat pumps, ground source heat pumps in particular, how much would it have cost us per household for 2,000 homes? How much are we spending per household on the hydrogen trials?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the noble Baroness is aware, we have two potential trial villages at the moment. We will make a decision later this year on which one will be selected, assuming that we get the powers to do so in the Energy Bill. We are still looking very closely at the costs of the trial. They are still to be determined, so I cannot give her an answer yet. The two gas networks are looking at the costs as we speak.