Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Baroness Worthington Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I offer the suggestion that rather than making a long shopping list of particular types of vehicles we might introduce the concept of zero-emissions vehicles, which would be a very important category to report against. When we get statistics from the SMMT it talks about alternatively fuelled vehicles as a category but that includes hybrids, which of course have tailpipe emissions, and sometimes those emissions can be higher than those from a normal car. I encourage the Government to think about zero-emissions vehicles as a catch-all.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, it must have already been accepted that hydrogen vehicles are within the scope of the Bill, otherwise an amendment to deal with them would not have been accepted. I should have thought that having done that, it might add a bit of clarity to add it to the title of the Bill as a supplementary amendment with very little substance except form.

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[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to this group of government amendments. I thank the Minister for listening to our interventions on the topic. At the moment, we do not have good oversight of how the market will develop; we have what I feel is a somewhat unnatural market in infrastructure, as the Government have chosen to focus on charging infrastructure without sufficient attention to whether there are enough cars for people to buy and use affordably to make use of that charging. As a result, we may have boom and bust in the charging infrastructure. We must keep those two important aspects in parallel: both the charging infrastructure and the cars. In the absence of a more natural market with more cars, it is very important that we have the regulations to ensure that where charge points are installed, they are maintained, so I am very grateful to the Minister for tabling the amendments, and fully support their intent.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I just want to tell my noble friend how helpful I find the amendment and how useful it is. The climate change committee has drawn attention to the fact that one reason for the lack of uptake of such motor cars is people’s feeling that they cannot rely on a charging system to travel around the countryside. The amendment is an important addition to that provision.

However, I remind my noble friend that one issue here is that people are very suspicious of the correctness of the information given to them by the motor car industry generally. Therefore, this support will be invaluable. We are still being told things about motor cars which are not true. The figures being put out for the performance of motor cars—including electric motor cars—are very different from the reality. It is in that atmosphere that the amendment is important.

I hope that the Government will recognise that in other areas in this business, too, regulation is not an imposition but an encouragement. Good regulation is a good thing. We are against bad regulation. In this area, we need regulation that gives people confidence in what is for most of them a very new technology. I thank my noble friend but also urge her to recognise that we need similar support in other areas if we are to get the change which we will need. I remind her that the Government have set far too far a target for the eradication of new petrol and diesel-driven vehicles: 2030 is necessary if we are to meet the fourth and fifth carbon budgets, so there is a real need to get on with things which will encourage people to buy these motor cars.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, this amendment follows on very neatly from a reference in government Amendment 13 about the,

“performance, maintenance and availability of public charging or refuelling points”.

The point was made several times in previous debates that having no charging point at all is possibly less frustrating than getting to one that does not work. I am moving on to an issue that I have raised before, which is that once you have installed a charging point it needs to stay there. Since the Government appear to have accepted the principle that planning legislation will be able to take into account the provision of charging points, we need reassurance that it will also take into account that permission will be needed to remove charging points.

I am not dreaming up an obstacle out of the blue, for the sake of it. I have already come across this issue locally to where I live, where a charging point was installed and then there were moves to remove it to change the configuration of a car park. Local residents raised the issue and ran a campaign to keep that charging point there. We cannot expect that always to work. I suggest that this is a good opportunity for the Minister to say publicly that the Government intend to deal with this issue in the regulations.

I should have made it absolutely clear that Amendment 18 looks at the provision of charging points in non-residential premises. Amendment 20 looks at the requirement for charging and refuelling points in new developments. Once again, I draw the analogy with parking spaces. It is quite normal for planning permission to say that you must provide a parking space; if you are building a block of flats, you have to provide at least six parking spaces, for instance. You also need permission if you wish to remove those parking spaces.

My amendment suggests that there should be a requirement in the regulations that new residential, commercial and industrial developments should include charging or refuelling points in the same way as they would require parking spaces. However, I have an eye to being reasonable. There will, of course, be situations where requiring this would be inappropriate, or make the development not viable. The suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, of ducting as a possible preparation for this, deals with that issue. We clearly also need some kind of standard approach to such a requirement, in the same way as to the provision of parking spaces. It would be useful if the Government were able to clarify whether they intend to address these specific issues in the regulations. Only with the provision of charging points in a variety of situations, and refuelling points where appropriate, will we deal with the issue just raised by the noble Lord, Lord Deben. The public have to have confidence in a widespread supply of places to recharge or refuel their cars. I beg to move.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 19, 34 and 35 in my name. I am retabling amendments discussed in Committee relating to the changes to planning necessary to enable the huge change in our transport infrastructure which the Government have stated they wish to happen. The scale of this challenge is quite daunting. I fully support the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who said that we need to embrace positive regulation in this instance. The natural pace of things is far too slow at the moment. If we look at what has happened in other sectors of the economy, the power sector in particular has a very good story to tell about changing our outdated structure to a modern one. That did not happen by accident: it came about through a succession of policy instruments which the Government tabled. The transport industry has been left largely alone in the last 20 to 25 years and it has delivered virtually no change, except perhaps for more diesel on the road. We have to see some interventions that will cause this industry to embrace the scale of the necessary changes. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. I am sure that she has been consulting colleagues in the DCMS about what needs to be done in planning. I suspect the answer will be that there will be something in the zero-emission vehicles strategy—I hope so.

Amendment 19 introduces the equivalent of code rights for the installation of charging infrastructure, similar to that in the Digital Economy Act 2017. We have had a number of years of development in digital telecommunications that have justified that. I suspect that we will quite soon find ourselves in a similar position with this. We have looked for evidence that we need this now. I have to admit that it is thin on the ground, but I suspect that we will be back discussing this again before too long. I look forward to the Minister’s response on that. Amendment 34 is another big topic relating to the rights of leaseholders and what they can and cannot request of landlords. We discussed this in Committee, so I will not dwell on it for too long. I have heard that there is a Law Commission inquiry on leaseholds, but that will not report until 2021—rather a long time to wait to resolve this issue when there are people who want the power today to install and pay for charging infrastructure in their properties but whose landlords are obstacles. We need a resolution of this sooner than 2021.

Amendment 35 is similar to that in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on the need to address the issue of non-residential buildings and to make them ready for charging infrastructure. It is crucial to say that non-residential is not covered in the National Planning Policy Framework, while residential buildings are covered. I hope to hear from the Minister what might be done to address that anomaly. It is clear that we will save ourselves money if we think about this earlier rather than later. It is always harder to retrofit rather than install at the time of build. I very much look forward to hearing from the Minister.

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Moved by

[Baroness Worthington]

21: Clause 10, page 6, line 26, at end insert “or
( ) large car park operators which are privately owned and managed and fall within a prescribed description,”

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[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, in moving this amendment, I will speak also to Amendments 23 and 28 in my name. We are returning to the topic of Clause 10. I have perhaps been critical of the Government’s Bill in suggesting that it is a little lightweight and does not contain very much. However, it contains one interesting clause, Clause 10, which sets out that private companies which occupy an important strategic position could be required, through regulation, to make provision for charging/refuelling. It is probably the most interesting part of the Bill. However, the clause is unnecessarily narrow.

In Committee, we discussed the issue of the narrowness of this definition. I know that currently the department’s thinking is that this measure is taken to address the specific issue of range anxiety while on the motorway. I have tabled this set of amendments to ask the Government to think again about why they have chosen to take all this parliamentary time and effort to focus on one element of the transition. It is an important element. All of us who drive electric vehicles and have been on a motorway know the feeling of the charge going down far faster than it does on an A road, and having to look for the next point on your journey where you can safely recharge. That will be better once this has been addressed.

However, this is just one of many instances where the infrastructure and the vehicles need to be in harmony. There are many other ways in which we could bring about an increase in the uptake of electric and zero-emission vehicles if we made sensible regulations to provide the infrastructure in a wider selection of places, the most obvious of which have to be car parks. We know that a large amount of charging will be done either overnight at home when the vehicle is not in use, or perhaps during the day, or it will be done in destinations where people are stopping already to spend time and money and can charge conveniently while doing something else. Given that, car parks would be great places to build out this strategic infrastructure. These amendments seek to amend Clause 10 so that it is not unnecessarily narrow and focused purely on fuel retailers and service stations.

I know that the Minister has been thinking about this issue since Committee, because we did talk about it, but I would put this question to her. Perhaps we can go back in time and ask why it was that the Government decided to embark on a whole Bill process to address just this one narrow question around motorway range anxiety. Would it not have been wiser to have taken a broader approach? I have even gone back to the original consultation document for the modern transport Bill. Five of the seven questions asked in relation to infrastructure related to fuel retailers and only one question at the end asked which other places might be useful. In fact, a large number of respondents suggested that lots of places such as car parks would be very useful. The consultation responses in the summary are quite hard to interpret and we cannot see the raw data, but my gut feeling is that this decision was taken a long time ago and the Government have possibly even forgotten both when and why they took it. We need to revisit the question of narrow scope and Clause 10 being so strangely focused on just one part of the transition. The knowledge is there, but it is simply not enough to put us on the right footing to embrace the transition properly.

I hope that I will hear some words of reassurance, because Clause 10 is so important to the subsequent parts of the Bill that we will come on to. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response and I beg to move.

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[Baroness Worthington]

With respect, no. The noble Lord’s point is correct. When the Minister started to discuss this amendment the statement was made that Clause 10 “will require”. It does not. Clause 10 is an enabling power that enables regulations to be made at the Government’s discretion subject to consultation and publication of the zero-emission vehicles strategy, which we are all waiting for and I am sure will contain lots of statements about the need to roll out charging infrastructure to places other than motorway service stations. It is wrong to represent this clause as requiring anything and wrong to miss the opportunity to take a wider enabling power now, otherwise we will have to be back here in six months taking it another time.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I can assure the noble Baroness that it is the Government’s intention to use the powers designated in Clause 10, but we want to consult first on exactly which destinations are included in the definitions. It is our intention to use the powers we seek to have in Clause 10. As I said, the powers we seek would allow the Government to—

[Baroness Worthington]

I am sorry to interrupt again, but could the noble Lord clarify that? The powers will be used and a consultation will be undertaken about which destinations they will apply to, but the Bill is very specific and narrow and says that it will be only large petrol retailers and service station providers. That is the point we are making: it is too narrow. It is not even what is necessary. The Minister has given a long list of private sector movement. Most service stations already have charge points. That is one place where you can find them. We are talking about a much wider, countrywide need, specifically—when we come on to the next group of amendments—a city-led, demand-led process that Clause 10 could enable but does not as drafted.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The consultations I was referring to concern the definition of a large service station. We have not defined that and that is the consultation we want to embark on. Once that consultation has been completed, it is the Government’s intention to use the powers under Clause 10 to make progress and designate areas where we want more charge points.

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[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am possibly more aware than anyone else in the Chamber of the strength of feeling that we have had during debate on this issue. I understand where my noble friend is coming from but I would be misleading him if I said that I could give the commitment he asks for.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I am afraid that I cannot say I am any clearer or more reassured as to the logic behind the Government’s position on this issue. It feels to me as if, at some point in the distant past, a decision was made on behalf of all EV owners in the country that long-distance journeys were the problem. Where is the evidence that that is the case? What are the Government basing their policy on? Can we see the consultation document which asked, “What is your biggest fear about driving an electric vehicle?” The only consultation I have been able to find had five leading questions related to large fuel retailers and one open-ended question. The analysis of the responses indicates that there is almost no difference between those who supported mandatory provisions on fuel retailers and those who said, “We want them everywhere”. There is no evidence. I urge the Government, please, before Third Reading to come into dialogue to discuss this clause, so that we can get to the bottom of where the evidence is for it. If we can do that, although I reserve the right to bring back an amendment at Third Reading given the widespread support expressed today, then I will be happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 21 withdrawn.