The Importance of the Relationship Between the United Kingdom and India

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Thursday 19th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, at the beginning of this month, India took over the chair of the G20. In a few months’ time, it will overtake China as the world’s most populous nation—perhaps not an unmixed blessing but still one with geopolitical consequences. So what better moment to review our own country’s relationship with India? All credit and thanks are due to the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, for making that possible. The two excellent maiden speeches that we have had, as well as the unique valedictory speech, show the width of interest in our relationship with India.

The histories of Britain and India have been deeply intertwined for the past several hundred years, but as we look now to the future, we need to remember that the different views of our mutual experience are part of a complex picture, and not invariably a positive one. For many Indians, Britain stands for damage to their economy, for the use of force to overthrow their rulers, and for terrible human rights abuses—the Amritsar massacre prominent among them. For Britons, there may still be traces of imperial nostalgia, and there is justifiable pride at promoting a free press, freedom of speech, parliamentary democracy, the rule of law—my own grandfather was a High Court judge in Madras—and one of India’s accepted languages, our own tongue. These histories contain many contradictions which need to be borne in mind but not to be predominant.

Currently, one has to begin with trade relations, since negotiations for an India-UK free trade agreement are ongoing. That is a worthwhile objective. But we really should cease setting artificial deadlines for their completion—“all done and dusted by Diwali” last October was the most recent one—and we should remember that those who show excessive neediness for a deal are likely to pay a price for it. India has a history of trade protectionism—after all, it scuppered the Doha round of multilateral trade negotiations—so a free trade deal on the basis of effective reciprocity, a characteristic not always evident in some recent trade deals that the Government have struck, will be a challenge not best achieved by excessive haste.

The Indo-Pacific tilt proclaimed in the Johnson Government’s security review is currently the object of further reflection following Russia’s war of aggression in Ukraine. That war has upended every previous analysis and cannot be ignored. Britain’s security requires not only continuing support for Ukraine but the strengthening of our contribution to NATO. That does not mean that we have lost an interest in seeing peaceful stability restored to India’s Himalayan border with China, in securing freedom of passage through the Indian Ocean, the South China Sea and the East China Sea, and in avoiding any attack on Taiwan. However, we cannot be everywhere and do everything, and we should not pretend that we can, if only because our claim would not be credible. I suggest that we need to look for ways of co-operating with India in sophisticated areas of military, technology and training to enhance the deterrence of an overassertive China.

We really must not neglect our soft power assets, which have a particular significance in our relationship with India, given our common use of the English language, the BBC’s overseas services, the British Council and our universities. But we are cutting back spending on the first two, and the Home Secretary seems to believe that making it easier for Indian students, particularly post-graduate students, to come to UK universities is something that should be discouraged, even when India clearly wants to make access easier. Does it make any sense to thus damage one of our most valuable invisible exports and, at the same time, to make conclusion of our trade negotiations more difficult?

I have said enough already to illustrate why the eminently desirable objective of strengthening Britain’s relations with India will not be entirely straightforward—and that is without even mentioning legitimate concerns about the effect of the Indian Government’s tendencies towards majoritarian treatment of their minorities and of their effect on their obligations under the UN and other international conventions. These cannot simply be overlooked, nor can the opportunistically limp Indian reaction to Russia’s aggression against Ukraine.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord’s time is up.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

I am coming to a conclusion.

Let us hope that India’s chairing of the G20 will be marked, as it was in the case of Indonesia, by a better response to flagrant breaches of international law. I look forward to the Minister’s responses to some of these points when he replies to the debate.

Migration and Economic Development Partnership with Rwanda

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, my honourable friend Tom Pursglove made clear in the other place that no unaccompanied asylum-seeking child will be sent to Rwanda, and I am sure I repeated it in this House.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister familiar with the statement by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Filippo Grandi—he is, after all, the guardian of the migration convention—that the action by the Government was not in conformity with international law? If that is the case, what right do the Government have to elevate their view of international law above that of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, whose job is to guard that convention?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, we had much discussion about the UNHCR’s view of the Nationality and Borders Act. We disagreed. He is perfectly within his rights to say what he did, but we respectfully disagree.

UK-Rwanda Asylum Partnership Arrangement

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Monday 25th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think I have explained the provisions in the Bill. They are underpinned by legislation going back over 20 years but, as I explained to the House during the passage of the Bill, it is the certification process that is now in play in the Bill.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

If, as they say, the Government see the need for new and innovative means of dealing with the migration crisis now, did they have any contact with any of the other signatories to the refugee convention about these new and innovative methods before taking action on their own?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I think it is quite clear why we are taking action now.

Refugees and Asylum Seekers

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Monday 28th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As we speak, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is outlining some of the further things we will be doing to help our colleagues and friends in Ukraine, as has the Prime Minister over the last 24 hours. This Question is about the UNHCR in relation to the refugee convention, and we do not think that anything in what we do breaches the convention.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister not recognise that although it is very welcome that she says that the Government will be sticking by their obligations under the convention, it is not terribly convincing when they are simply marking their own homework? What does she have to say about the extremely detailed and well-argued views put forward by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees about the legislation we will be considering later today? Why should we accept her word rather than the UNHCR’s word? Surely, they know about their own convention?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is absolutely for the UNHCR to comment on our interpretation of the refugee convention, but it is for Parliament to determine our interpretation of it.

Immigration: Points-based System

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally concur with my noble friend. On 20 February—only a few days ago—we launched the new fast-track arrangements, managed by UK Research and Innovation, which enable UK-based research projects that have received recognised prestigious grants and awards to recruit that top global talent. However, as she also says, we want those experts to be able to come and furnish us with the benefit of their knowledge: I will most certainly take that back.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister answer a couple of questions about the impact of this points-based system on the higher education sector? First, she said in the Statement that there would be an English test: is that test to be carried out by the Home Office or by the higher education establishments, which are required to offer a place to a student before they can get a visa? Secondly, I think she said, but perhaps she can confirm this, that the points-based system will not apply to higher education. However, my reading of the Statement is that it will apply. What I cannot understand, for the life of me, is how on earth students coming to our universities can acquire the points that are required. They certainly cannot state that they are going to get a particular income. They are not getting an income at all: they are coming with a large amount of money in their hands to pay to us. Will she answer those two points about higher education, and also perhaps say how we are going to test whether they have enough funds to see them through a three- or four-year course?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

A student coming to this country will have to demonstrate that they have the funds to pay for the course and be sponsored by the relevant university or higher education establishment. I think that point has long been clear. As for a student coming to this country having the English language, I have a feeling it depends on the course, but I will check that for the noble Lord and return to him on that point. Of course, the student can now stay for an additional two years after they have qualified in order to find work, which obviously makes the system far more generous than it was before.

Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Tuesday 4th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I said that it is not a replacement for the EAW, but of course the Government can make that request of Parliament. I was going to come to that point a bit later; in fact, no, I think I answered it. The Government can request Parliament, through the affirmative procedure, to add countries.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness but I simply do not understand why she spent a huge amount of time telling us that this has nothing whatever to do with the European arrest warrant—that it has no relevance and is not in the same context. She has told us that again and again. Why on earth did this point elude police officers who wrote about this measure? Why did it elude a large number of extremely well-informed—much better informed than me—people in this House who think it relevant? I simply do not understand why she is so determined to say so. All my questions, which she has not answered, were designed to get a positive answer, which would increase support for this measure—for example, if she said that it was a step that would enable us, in certain circumstances, where we have definitively lost the European arrest warrant, to do things that might then enable us to have reciprocal arrangements with other members of the European Union. She has not said a word about the security negotiations with the European Union.

Nobody asked that this measure should not be reciprocal; I did not and neither did any other noble Lord. We asked whether we will use this legislation—these powers—to persuade the other members of the European Union that we need a solid reciprocal arrangement if, by any chance, we get to the end of this year and such an arrangement has not been negotiated. Can the Minister explain why she is so keen not to refer to any of these issues?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope that I talked about the other EU instruments we are negotiating on; I think I did so at the beginning of my closing speech. I was asked about reciprocity twice, which is why I answered. I also stated quite clearly that it was our intention to do this with or without our membership of the European Union, which is why the Bill was put forward. I am not trying to deny anything about the European arrest warrant; all I am saying is that we are doing this with or without our European Union membership because it is a gap in our capabilities regarding category 2 countries.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 15th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

No, I was not making that inference. I was trying to point out both consistency and inconsistency within some of the debates we have been having today, as noble Lords seem to have contradicted themselves depending on what the issue is. On the division of competences between Parliament and Government, noble Lords will have seen, and will continue to see, changes being made across the Bill. It does not undermine our policy intent and rightly ensures that Parliament is informed of our policy intentions in respect of our future arrangements. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said that we have already written to the Commission, and that is correct. It shows our intent and commitment in the coming year.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, spoke of Clause 37 killing Section 17. It does not; it amends it, as he went on to outline.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Could she be clearer about this correspondence with the Commission? The Minister said in the meeting we had yesterday, and again just now, that a letter went to the Commission in October, to which there has been no reply. It is perhaps not surprising, since the Commission does not have a mandate to negotiate until after we have left the European Union. Perhaps that is a perfectly innocent explanation, but surely the amendment being moved will actually strengthen the Government’s hand when they come to negotiate in March or April, by demonstrating the high priority which Parliament gives to it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The reason we have not had a reply is probably, as the noble Lord pointed out, to do with the fact that we have a new Commissioner. I do not agree with the noble Lord’s point—this amendment ties the Government’s hands in negotiation, and we do not wish to see that. We want to articulate our commitment through the manifesto and in Clause 37.

Visas: European Union Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not think there is much that can bypass Parliament these days. Perhaps I might apologise for saying to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe that the scheme is to be implemented next year; it will actually be in 2021, the year after next.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that a much simpler way to approach this, and one which it could be hoped that the Government —whoever form it after the election—would embrace, is to make it clear that any student who receives a clear offer of a place at a British university registered under the Higher Education Act will be admitted to this country?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the system that we have at the moment works very well, and the number of students coming to this country is clear proof of this.

ISIS: British People

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Sorry, that was a bit of a Brexit dig. When the Home Secretary makes the decision to revoke someone’s citizenship, they may not render that person stateless. They must, therefore, take legal advice at the time, which they are doing. I know the exact point that my noble friend makes but the Home Secretary cannot render someone stateless.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister address the issue of the British orphans in the part of Syria that is now under attack? What are the Government doing? Does she recognise that there is real urgency here because if the truce is being extended for a bit, as was reported today, that could provide an opportunity to get some of these children at least as far as Iraq on their way back here, where they ought to be?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I not only recognise but acknowledge and agree with the noble Lord’s point. I appreciate the time that we had to talk about some of these difficult issues. Where a child is a British citizen, we will work with partners to try to find a safe route to return them to this country, as he says.

Freedom of Movement

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord has asked me a question that is a little out of the Home Office’s purview. Until a deal is done, it is very difficult to tell what the future economic landscape will look like, and in fact the best way to advantage the economy is to get a deal done.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, why have the Government still not taken full advantage of the various provisions that exist under free movement to member states to return people who do not have a job, as the Belgians do? Given that we are still in the European Union until 31 October and will be under European legislation until the end of 2020 or perhaps longer, why are the Government not taking advantage of the flexibility within European free movement?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will of course correct me after Questions when I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the Government are fully abiding by the provisions under EU law and will continue to do so until we leave the EU.

Overseas Students: TOEIC Tests

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the issue at the heart of this was not the questioning of people’s competence in English but the fact that a fraud was committed. I cannot say to the noble Lord how many people found themselves in detention, because we do not disaggregate those sorts of figures. Of course, as for individual cases, I am not at liberty to discuss them.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, I am entirely prepared to await the reports now under consideration which the Minister says will be the object of Statements in both Houses when their conclusions are reached, but could we please not elide the action taken quite correctly by the coalition Government to close down a huge number of dodgy language schools—which all of us strongly supported and where we believe a good job was done—with what is going now? Let us start a little bit later than that and see what is being done now. For example—perhaps the Minister could reply to this, too—it is not sensible to create the impression that a huge number of people on education visas are overstaying. We now have statistical evidence that it is a tiny number, yet for years Home Office Ministers stood at the Dispatch Box saying that it was a huge number. The interest of our universities, which are a major national asset, was not well served by stories of the sort that we are hearing now. As I said, it is perfectly reasonable for the Minister to say, “Wait, please, till the NAO has reported; wait till the Home Secretary has had a glance at that”, but can we not rake over all these old stories when we come to the report but start from somewhere a little nearer the present time?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that point, because we need to start from where we are now. The system in place was a very old one and, as he said, the coalition Government did much to close down those dodgy colleges, as he called them. The same NAO found that well over 97% of students are compliant with their visas, which is very good news. We would not want to conflate our welcome for those coming to this country to study with what was a very dodgy process—fraudulent, in fact. I welcome what the noble Lord said, and I would not want to conflate what happened then with a very good news story now: a 28% increase in the number of international students since 2010 and a 10% increase in only the past 12 months.

Brexit: Security

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Baroness and, to that end, we had a useful debate on that subject last week. For her information, at his Home Affairs Select Committee appearance, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Richard Martin, who is the Brexit lead for the National Police Chiefs’ Council, confirmed regarding policing:

“If we crash out on 29 March, we will have the team up. We will have everything written. We will have the whole system and the network developed, and we will be there, sitting on the shoulders of forces across the country from a policing point of view to help them through what that looks like. We will be fully prepared”.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister be so kind as to say what the extradition arrangements will be for each of the 27 member states on 30 March in the event of no deal? If she does not have those details at her fingertips, could she write to me and ensure that the letter gets here before 30 March?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will try to make sure it gets to the noble Lord by 29 March. I shall not go through every one of the 27 states, but in the event of no deal we would rely on the Council of Europe European Convention on Extradition of 1957. Just for noble Lords’ information, it is already used for other non-EU countries—for example, Norway.

Future Immigration

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Wednesday 19th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I repeat that £30,000 was a suggestion from the MAC. There will be a year-long period in which people can engage with the consultation. The figure is not set in stone. It is a salary that was suggested by the MAC.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister able to explain how this can be described as taking back control, when the largest proportion of immigration to this country, from outside the EU, is rising inexorably and the proportion coming from the EU, on which controls are now to be put, is dropping? Is that taking back control? Perhaps she can also explain why the Home Secretary is so pessimistic about the Prime Minister’s deal going through. The only circumstances in which free movement will end on 29 March is if there is no deal. If there is a deal, it does not end until the end of December 2020.

On students, while it is welcome that the post- study period is being relaxed a little, does the Minister recognise that the figures given for the relaxation still leave us at a disadvantage to all our main international competitors, which give longer post-study periods of immigration?

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am very happy to agree with both the noble Lord and, of course, my noble friend. We absolutely acknowledge that international students enrich the economy and, indeed, this country. We have no plans at all to cap the numbers—in fact, we encourage them, hence we are expanding the pilot.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords—

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree totally with the points that my noble friend makes. It is very pleasing to see that students are in a very compliant environment. To the year ending June 2017, there was a 9% increase in Russell group universities, and a 17% increase in all student visas granted for Chinese nationals. To bring up a point made in a previous Question, I mention that the proportion of Indian students coming to study in the UK at a higher education institute has increased from around 50% in 2010 to around 93% in the year ending June 2017.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that citation of selective statistics is not terribly convincing—the Indian figure, for instance, being 50% down over recent years? She sits on the Government Bench, which continually tells us that we have to respect votes. Does she therefore recognise that it might be better if her reply respected the vote of this House by a majority of 94 that students should not be considered as economic migrants, which they are not? Will the Government’s White Paper on immigration, due in a few weeks, cover that issue?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I appreciate that within statistics we can say all sorts of things. However, it is not a myth about the Indian students. People who come here and use services and infrastructure for more than a year are counted as migrants.

European Union: Freedom of Movement

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Thursday 12th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that will certainly be determined in negotiations as we exit the EU.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister, rather than answering a question she was not asked, answer the question she was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs? He asked why we do not now apply the three-month rule, not what we will apply when we have a new relationship. I understand that she is not prepared to say that, but will she now answer his question and say whether she thinks that if we decided now to start applying it we would put ourselves in a much better position when we start the negotiations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I did answer the noble Lord’s question. Each member state implements the free movement directive through their respective domestic legislation, all of which have different nuances within them.

Brexit: EU Citizens

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There certainly is merit in leading by example, but there is definitely a disbenefit in showing your hand too soon.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

Could the Minister perhaps be so kind as to have a different approach to the one she has taken so far and confirm that the British Government will not themselves place on the negotiating table any removal of rights to any EU citizens who are here? I am sure that if that assurance could be given, which was implicit in what the Minister said in her original Answer, it would be very helpful.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The answer to that is that we want to get the best deal for everyone, both our citizens living abroad and EU nationals living in this country.

Higher Education: Financial Sustainability

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Monday 15th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the figure for accepted entrants as of August 2014 was up by 4% and that for mature students was up by 6%. In terms of postgraduate funding, your Lordships will know that loans of up to £10,000 will be available from 2016-17. Indeed, in 2012 the Government introduced non-means-testing for loans for part-time students of 25% or more of the full-time equivalent.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister not recognise that her original Answer sounded rather like someone sitting in the back of a canoe facing upstream just before going over a very large waterfall? Can she perhaps say something about financial sustainability, which she has not covered very fully? In particular, 45 modern languages schools in British universities closed in recent years on the grounds that they were not financially sustainable. Does that leave the Government calm or worried?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not recognise the words “canoe”, “upstream” or “waterfall” mentioned in that question. According to the OECD, we are one of the few nations to have introduced a system of sustainable higher education finance. Indeed, our numbers of students are up to record levels at nearly half a million.

Criminal Justice and Data Protection (Protocol No. 36) Regulations 2014

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Hannay of Chiswick

Monday 17th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is not unusual to refer to the Companion on the general principles of conduct of the House. We have had the Modern Slavery Bill and the Statement today, which were expected to conclude earlier than they did. I am just giving guidance.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I have every sympathy with the noble Baroness’s response, but she is aware that someone from her Front Bench spoke for a pretty lengthy time at the beginning of this debate, and now she is asking everyone else to take a lot less time. I think it would be best if we got on with it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that it would be a good idea to get on with things. I am simply giving guidance from the Companion, rather than dictating to anyone that they curtail their remarks.