Baroness Williams of Trafford
Main Page: Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts“( ) An order under subsection (1) may include further provision about the exercise of the function including—
(a) provision for the function to be exercisable by the public authority or combined authority subject to conditions or limitations specified in the order;(b) provision as to joint working arrangements between the combined authority and public authority in connection with the function (for example, provision for the function to be exercised by a joint committee).”
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 28, I wish to speak also to Amendments 29, 30, 71, 72, 80, 82 and 83. It may also assist the House if I comment on opposition Amendments 31, 32, 34 and 67.
These amendments are all about devolving functions. Underpinning the government amendments in this group is consideration we have given to issues raised in Committee about devolving health functions and devolution not only in cities but in counties where there may not be combined authorities, such as Cornwall.
Government Amendments 28, 29, 30, 80 and 82 relate to discussions we have had on devolving health matters and would provide greater flexibility over how functions can be exercised jointly by a public authority and combined authority. They are intended to provide assurance that any future devolution arrangements will continue to uphold existing accountabilities and national standards for the NHS. This was a core principle set out in the memorandum of understanding concerning health and social care functions agreed with Greater Manchester in February.
I have listened carefully to the points made by noble Lords, particularly the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Hunt, both during Committee and Second Reading, and during the very useful meeting we had last week. I am bringing forward these amendments and providing further assurances today, which I hope will go at least some way to meeting the concerns that noble Lords have.
Clause 6 enables the Secretary of State by order to confer on a combined authority functions held by a public authority. Such functions could be exercisable by the combined authority instead of the public authority, or the functions could be exercisable concurrently by each authority.
Amendment 28 enables the Secretary of State to provide for the functions concerned to be exercisable by the combined authority or public authority, subject to specified conditions or limitations. This would enable conditions to be attached to any conferral of powers from a public authority to a combined authority. This could, for example, enable a conferral of health powers on a combined authority to be accompanied by a condition that the combined authority must also meet the current statutory duties held variously by the Secretary of State for Health, NHS England and clinical commissioning groups, thereby ensuring continuation of current NHS accountabilities and standards. So, for example, the Secretary of State could transfer powers attaching the duty to seek continuous improvement in the quality of services, reduce health inequalities, promote the NHS constitution, seek to achieve the objectives in the NHS mandate or act consistently with those objectives. Other conditions might be attached that were specific to the two authorities’ arrangements for working together.
Amendments 29 and 30 provide greater flexibility to ensure that combined authorities and public authorities can work effectively together. They enable Ministers to specify that functions are to be exercised by the public authority and combined authority working jointly, in addition to the powers to require that functions are exercised concurrently or are fully transferred to the combined authority. Amendments 80 and 82 are minor changes which support these amendments by enabling the Secretary of State to amend or modify legislation; for example, the National Health Service Act 2006 might need some amendments or modifications in relation to the particular combined authority to which functions were being transferred. These amendments allow greater flexibility for devolved arrangements to be specified according to local context and the function concerned, and would give greater assurance that the combined authority or council would have to work co-operatively in the exercise of functions.
I understand that Amendment 31 is also prompted by health considerations. It seeks to limit Clause 6 to exclude public authority functions,
“of a regulatory or supervisory nature”,
from being conferred on a combined authority. I understand the intent behind this amendment, having discussed it with noble Lords last week and again now, and I agree that a combined authority should not be able to act as the regulator or supervisor of functions that it is responsible for exercising. Indeed, I can see a case for excluding from the scope of Clause 6 the functions of any national regulatory or supervisory body overseeing the exercise of functions by public authorities. Such an exclusion would put it beyond any doubt that the regulator responsibilities of, say, Monitor and the Care Quality Commission could not be devolved to combined authorities. Moreover, if a combined authority is provided, by order, health functions, perhaps to be exercised jointly with the local clinical commissioning groups, the combined authority should not also be conferred with the functions of the clinical commissioning groups’ regulators.
As I have already indicated, I can assure noble Lords that we are absolutely committed to upholding existing accountabilities and national standards; for example, for the NHS. This core principle was set out in the health and social care memorandum of understanding with Greater Manchester. As I have said in earlier debates, the Government are committed to the view that health and social care services in any area, whatever devolution arrangements are entered into, must remain firmly part of the NHS and social care system; that all existing accountabilities and national standards for health, social care and public health services will still apply; and that the position of NHS services in the area in relation to the NHS constitution and mandate cannot change. The exclusions sought by Amendment 31 could be made by excluding them from the set of functions which are transferred and, if it were necessary, the Secretary of State’s power to attach conditions or impose limitations could be used, as provided for in Amendment 28. However, I am prepared to consider further and reflect on today’s discussion and, if we consider it appropriate, for the Government to return to these issues at Third Reading.
Government Amendments 71, 72 and 83 will enable the Secretary of State to confer functions of a public authority on local authorities as well as combined authorities. These amendments are ensuring that we have the powers we may need to devolve powers in county areas where there may not be a combined authority. In previous stages of the Bill, concerns have been raised that the Bill focuses on devolution to those large cities with combined authorities, and questions have been asked about how the Bill’s provisions apply in non-metropolitan areas, where perhaps there may not be combined authorities.
As I have explained on more than one occasion, we are very clear that devolution applies equally across all parts of England—cities, counties and towns—and that we are looking to do bespoke deals with all areas that want them. We are also ready to have conversations with any area about the powers and budgets it wants devolved to it and the governance arrangements it proposes to support those powers. This amendment is to put it beyond doubt that there is a level playing field for all areas, including areas where there is no combined authority. That we are serious about this is unequivocally demonstrated by the Chancellor’s announcement in the Budget:
“The government intends to support towns and counties to play their part in growing the economy, offering them the opportunity to agree devolution deals, and providing local people with the levers they need to boost growth. The government is working with towns and counties to make these deals happen and is making good progress towards a deal with Cornwall”.
Clause 6 enables the Secretary of State to confer functions of a public authority on to a combined authority, subject to appropriate consent and process. Amendments 71 and 72 replicate these powers for application to local authorities to enable the Secretary of State to confer functions of a public authority on to a county or district council. Amendment 83 makes some minor amendments to tidy up Section 15 of the Localism Act accordingly. These amendments will enable, for example, devolution deals to be made with individual local authorities such as Cornwall, as I have mentioned, in the same way as for a combined authority.
Functions of a public authority could be conferred on a local authority to be exercised individually by the local authority, concurrently with the public authority or jointly with the public authority. All these powers can be transferred with limitations and conditions, as for the transfer of powers from a public authority to a combined authority. As with combined authorities, such a conferral of power can be made only with consent from the local authority and if the Secretary of State considers that doing so would be likely to improve the exercise of statutory functions in the local authority area. Such a conferral of power would also need approval from each House of Parliament and to support Parliament’s consideration, the Secretary of State would lay a report before it setting out the reasoning for the proposed conferral of powers. I hope that noble Lords will agree that these amendments respond to their earlier questions about what the Government are offering to non-metropolitan areas.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
We are getting major amendments, which are very welcome, at Report rather than in the Bill. It is very hard to find out what is going on because being on Report confines the sort of discussion which we would normally have in Committee. I am grateful for the Minister’s tolerance. She made the point about county functions. Is she saying that under Amendment 71, in conjunction with Amendment 83, the functions of a public authority may be conferred on any single district authority, not just on combined authorities and counties? I was not sure.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I was saying that it applies to any local authority.
Amendment 32 would require the Secretary of State to consult for 60 days before he could lay a draft order before Parliament which would confer powers of a public authority on a combined authority. I am clear that this amendment is unnecessary and risks adding significant delay to the implementation of devolution deals agreed between the Government and the areas concerned. That we cannot countenance delay is not primarily because we are seeking some bureaucratic neatness or even public administration—desirable as those aims are—but because implementing those deals is critical to enabling areas to address the serious economic challenges that the country faces, including the great challenge on productivity.
As the Chancellor made clear in his Budget, addressing this challenge is key to delivering the financial security that families seek when living standards rise. We cannot delay this. Noble Lords have heard me say a number of times that the Government are open to discussing devolution proposals from all places, and that our approach is for areas to come forward with proposals that address their specific issues and opportunities. These are deals between the Government and civic leaders who have been elected by, and are democratically accountable to, those living in the area.
Amendment 33, which is in my name and which we will be discussing shortly, requires the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament a report whenever he lays an order which supports such a transfer of power, to provide further detailed information about the deal and conferral of powers as proposed in the draft order. This report is designed to enhance the transparency of such deals and support parliamentary scrutiny.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my Amendments 31 and 32, and thank the Minister very much for her response. Amendment 31 relates to the exclusion of the transfer of regulatory functions. I was very grateful for what the noble Baroness had to say, particularly that we will return to the issue at Third Reading. She referred to our debates about the NHS and naturally referred to NHS bodies, but the general principle arises with other functions as well. For example, I have been pondering Cumbria and the potential under this Bill for the regulators of civil nuclear plants and the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority to be transferred, under an order through Clause 6, to Cumbria County Council, which clearly would not be possible. Again, that would apply to the Environment Agency. I think the discussions the Minister is having with her officials between now and Third Reading need to go wider than just the National Health Service.
My Amendment 32 suggests that, because of the Henry VIII nature of Clause 6 orders, the super-affirmative procedure ought to be adopted. I know that in some circumstances, that procedure would not always be appropriate because of the length of time it takes. I am therefore very grateful for the noble Baroness’s Amendment 33, which was originally grouped with these amendments, because it meets the substance of my concerns without making use of the super-affirmative procedure. I am very content with her amendment and look forward to further debate on my Amendment 31, on the exclusion of regulatory and supervisory functions from Clause 6 orders.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
May I just clarify a comment that I made to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis? I talked about local authorities, but it does actually exclude London boroughs.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, I should like to speak to Amendment 67, which is not an opposition amendment but an amendment in my name. I apologise to noble Lords for entering the fray at such a late stage, but the fact is that I completely failed to appreciate the significance of this legislation for the provision of advice services in which I have a strong interest. That is entirely my failure, but I crave your Lordships’ indulgence and hope that noble Lords will not mind too much if I take a few moments to draw their attention to the matter on Report.
My interest, which I have declared, stems from the fact that the amendment emanates from one of the key recommendations from the commission that I chaired on the future of advice and legal support on social welfare law—namely, that:
“Local authorities or groups of local authorities should co-produce or commission local advice and legal support plans with local not for profit (NFP) and commercial advice agencies. These plans should review the services available, including helplines and websites, while targeting face-to-face provision so that it reaches the most vulnerable”.
The fact that my amendment emanates from a commission of which I was myself the chair does not necessarily make it a bad amendment—indeed, one might think rather the reverse. In fact, there are a number of considerations which come together to suggest that this amendment makes a lot of sense in a Bill which is dealing with the devolution of power to larger, more strategic authorities. Advice services such as citizens advice bureaux, law centres and other charities provide crucial support to individuals in dealing with financial, legal and welfare problems concerning such things as housing, debt, disability benefits and claiming unpaid wages from employers, and they help communities to adjust to economic shocks and the effects of changes in government policies on things such as welfare reform. As non-statutory, or non-protected, services, they have suffered as a result of funding cuts, most social welfare issues having been removed from the scope of legal aid at the same time as cuts to a range of social support budgets.
The first report of my commission in January 2014 was entitled Tackling the Advice Deficit. Just over a year after that, in March this year, we published a second report which concluded that the advice deficit had increased significantly. In the first year since the implementation of LASPO, nine law centres had closed, comprising six of the Law Centres Network’s membership, and the Law Centres Network estimated that local government support for law centres had reduced by almost a quarter since 2010-11.
Our commission’s principal recommendation was that a strategic approach should be adopted towards the provision of advice. On 10 June this year, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, for the Ministry of Justice in answer to Questions endorsed this approach when he said:
“The Liberal Democrat manifesto contains a number of wise things, including the suggestion that we should, ‘develop a strategy that will deliver advice and legal support to help people with everyday problems like personal debt and social welfare issues’. I entirely agree with that”.—[Official Report, 10/6/15; col. 792.]
If we take Manchester, which is highly relevant in the present context, as an illustration of these points in microcosm, CAB funding of £1.3 million will be cut by more than one-third between 2015 and 2017, involving major restructuring, including the closure of South Manchester Law Centre and other CAB services, as well as reductions in some face-to-face services. That after £1.2 million had already been stripped out as a result of the LASPO cuts, despite increasing numbers of families and individuals running into debt and legal problems.
As for the strategic response, a combined authority could collaborate with the local advice sector to plan services within a wider range of resources, including the welfare support grant, the universal credit local services framework, the homelessness prevention fund, the troubled families programme, lottery projects to support those with complex and multiple needs, the better care fund and other resources, such as support services for victims provided at local level by police and crime commissioners. This offers a viable model for the rehabilitation and stabilisation of our system of advice and legal support on social welfare law. Such collaboration has been facilitated since 2013 through partnership programmes supported by the lottery’s advice services transition fund. This funding has now run out, although we hope that the Cabinet Office might still work with the Big Lottery Fund to extend this into a rolling programme that could be match-funded from a number of sources and built into a national advice and legal support fund to support the local plans which the recommendation in our report, which I referred to, calls for.
Co-ordination across funding streams and services would not only prevent duplication but help to sustain partnerships across the advice sector. The whole would be greater than the sum of the parts. This is aptly demonstrated by the example of Sheffield, which we studied in our report. The council brought together some 19 separate organisations under CAB leadership, which made for not only economies of scale but gains in efficiency—for example, through three in-house lawyers becoming available to the whole organisation.
Section 4(1) of the Care Act 2014 states that:
“A local authority must establish and maintain a service for providing people in its area with information and advice relating to care and support for adults and support for carers”.
Combined authorities operating the sort of collaborative model that I have outlined offer a perfect vehicle for discharging this obligation. It seems a no-brainer. This is just the sort of thing that combined authorities are being set up to do—if not this, then what?
Lord Heseltine (Con)
My Lords, the more I have listened to the debate on Amendment 34, the more worried I have become about many of the interventions from the Benches opposite. Devolution is not something that government departments are longing to do. They are not sitting there asking, “How can we give up power? How can we transfer this back from where we have taken it?”. There is controversy between departments within government. It is a personal controversy and a power structure controversy. If we were to agree to this line of thinking, we would force the Government to find minimalist compromises within the existing structure. Why should the Government go further within the controversy? Why not simply give the least? That would broadly satisfy the consensus within the power structure of Whitehall.
The argument that I have used in my personal capacity with local authorities is: be adventurous. I have asked: do you have the capacity to see how to do something bigger, better and more imaginative than you will ever get if it is imposed on you from central government? Some authorities have that capacity. Manchester has been quoted many times but there are other examples—the noble Lord, Lord Low, in an interesting intervention talked about what has happened in Sheffield. However, in order to galvanise the momentum of local talent based on local strengths, you need men and women who can envisage how to do things better than will ever be achieved by what is imposed on them by the central machine. That is why Amendment 34 is at the heart of the worst way of dealing with things.
We want local people to rise up in indignation with their ideas, to argue for them and to put forward proposals which in many parts of government will not be acceptable so that a debate is forced on government. Then, those who believe in the devolution argument will, in the normal processes of government, have the chance to win the concessions that can meet the aspirations that are put forward. However, clamping down with prescriptive lists divided into tiers of local government and into functions, mirroring the Whitehall structure, is the way to stop devolution in its tracks.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Heseltine for setting the context for some of my answers tonight. We do not intend to make lists to prescribe anything. We want to hear proposals from local authorities—single local authorities or whatever they might be. As my noble friend said, we want to hear about their vision for the future of their areas. I hope that that answers some of the questions that were raised.
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to Amendments 71 and 72. As with the other amendments which the Delegated Powers Committee considered today, these can be discussed further on Wednesday, when the committee’s report will be available.
I was asked whether single local authorities could make proposals to the Secretary of State. The answer is yes.
The noble Lord, Lord Low, asked about social welfare reports. Whatever the merits of these issues—and I can see their importance—again, these are matters for local areas, and indeed perhaps for combined authorities, to respond to if that is considered right locally. They are not matters for a generally enabling Bill providing the framework for devolving powers as part of a bespoke deal.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked why there should not be a prospectus for local authorities to respond to. Again, a prospectus tempts us to shift from our bottom-up approach to devolution to an approach driven by the Government’s ideas about what may or may not be devolved. That goes back to the comments of my noble friend Lord Heseltine. We are totally wedded to the bottom-up approach of having conversations with those in any area for whatever they propose for devolution.
“( ) At the same time as laying a draft of a statutory instrument containing an order under this section before Parliament, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report explaining the effect of the order and why the Secretary of State considers it appropriate to make the order.
“( ) The report must include—
(a) a description of any consultation taken into account by the Secretary of State,(b) information about any representations considered by the Secretary of State in connection with the order, and (c) any other evidence or contextual information that the Secretary of State considers it appropriate to include.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I will speak also to Amendment 70. During Committee, noble Lords expressed concern that Parliament should be fully informed on the nature of devolution deals and proposals. We have considered carefully the points raised, and we agree that we could strengthen and extend the information available to Parliament. Amendments 33 and 70 are intended to do this. They provide that when a Secretary of State lays a draft order in Parliament, in addition to the order’s Explanatory Memorandum, he will also lay a report explaining what the order does and why he proposes to make it. The report would need to include details of any consultation.
In Committee, we considered several amendments from noble Lords about consultation. Among those were requirements for the Secretary of State to undertake consultation before putting orders before Parliament. We consider that where consultation is undertaken, it is most appropriate that this is at local level by the areas developing the proposals, but it may be appropriate for the Secretary of State to consider such consultation as has been undertaken, and it is right that Parliament should know about such consideration, so my amendments require that the reports to be laid in Parliament contain a description of any consultation and any representations considered by the Secretary of State—and any other relevant evidence or information considered appropriate to include.
For example, in respect of consideration of policing within any deal, the Government would fully expect police and crime commissioners to be part of discussions early on in the development of those proposals at local level. Where the transferring of PCC functions to a mayor is proposed, the report would therefore include descriptions of the discussions that have taken place on this matter between local PCCs, the combined authority and the Government.
I believe that these reports, together with the Explanatory Memoranda, will ensure that Parliament will have all that it needs to consider the orders implementing devolution deals and the governance changes put before it. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, Amendment 33 is to be welcomed as it requires a report, as we have heard, to be laid before Parliament at the same time as the statutory instrument containing an order under Clause 6. The report will cover descriptions of any consultations and representations received and evidential and background information. Amendment 70 requires a similar report in respect of regulations arising under Clause 10. We consider these to be important amendments, which we support.
However, the amendment raises one question, which I touched upon earlier in relation to Amendment 1. The devolution process under way is happening not just necessarily under an order in Clause 6 or 10. It has been an evolving process, particularly in the case of Greater Manchester. The build-up of that devolution arrangement happened under different provisions, and that could be replicated in other deals.
We are trying to understand whether this will culminate always in one order under Clause 6 or Clause 10, or whether there are bits along the way. If the latter, that would obviously have an impact on the type of information and the type of report, and on whether there are any gaps in it. How will it work in practice?
As I said earlier, the reports could be an important component of an annual report, but I would be interested in how it all works and how it culminates always in one order which then triggers the report that we are discussing.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, for the two points that he raised and for his increasing confidence as the Bill goes along—it is reassuring to me if not to anyone else. He asked whether each and every deal would be brought forward in this way. The answer is yes. He also asked whether the reports would be in addition to the Explanatory Memorandum. Not only will they be in addition, but they will be full and detailed.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether the report plus the Explanatory Memorandum would be part of the full deal explanation, or whether it would be done piecemeal. My view at this moment—and I will correct it if it is wrong—is that once an area is ready to go forward with a devolution deal and therefore the orders that come with it, there will be a substantial report plus Explanatory Memoranda. It may be that that is added to through a future order, but that order on its own would then come through both Houses of Parliament. That is how I see it working, and I will correct it if it is not the case.