Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Lord McKenzie of Luton Excerpts

Monday 13th July 2015 Lords Chamber

I would have hoped that the Minister would consider this a valuable addition to the Bill or, if not in this precise form, that she would have been prepared to work with me to find the most appropriate way of incorporating the spirit of the amendment into the Bill. I could not really understand why she felt that it was inconsistent with the Government’s policy. Perhaps, as a result of joining the discussion at this late stage, I have not properly understood the Government’s policy, but if this is the case then maybe the Minister would be willing to meet me before Third Reading so that we could talk through whether there is not a way of meeting both the Government’s objectives and mine in tabling this amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, as explained, Amendments 28 to 30 were basically driven by the health agenda. The facility for joint working arrangements, the transfer of functions subject to conditions or limitations, and providing for functions to be undertaken by the public authority on a continuing basis together with joint working seemed to us to be entirely reasonable. On the fundamental debate about the NHS we do not believe that this goes far enough, but that issue will be returned to on Wednesday.

Amendment 34, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham, is another attempt at clarity on the list of functions that the Government are prepared to consider as available for devolving under the provisions of the Act. We anticipated the answer that we got, and I will not prolong that at this time of night. I just ask: what is so wrong with some form of prospectus that would help local authorities to understand the criteria applied and the capacity that they may build? An annual report would help. I do not fully understand the Government’s reticence on this matter. My noble friend Lord Hunt has dealt with Amendments 31 and 32, and we look forward to the further consideration on Amendment 31.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Low, that we appreciate the amendment that has just been moved. There is a great need in this area; we know that the social welfare advice system has been all but decimated—advice around benefits, debts, employment and housing—and it is a very difficult time. The noble Lord should be congratulated on the work that he did and the commission that he chaired. He is right on the fundamental point that combined authorities should be a forum within which a strategic framework could be put together to deal with these very issues. I take the Minister’s point that it is not the process of this Bill to prescribe that for each individual authority or the way that they should do it, but I hope that she will accept that it would be enabled by this process—indeed, it is quite an appropriate matter for a combined authority to address.

Amendments 71 and 72, as we have heard, would enable the transfer of public authority functions to certain individual local authorities. To reiterate a question asked by my noble friend, this would apply to any sort of authority—a district, county, unitary or single authority—and potentially the same type of powers that would be available more generally. It is an important change, which is welcomed, although we look forward to the DPRRC’s report when it comes out tomorrow. The change is achieved by the Secretary of State making regulations if it is considered that the exercise of statutory functions will be improved. As we have heard, they have to have the consent of the relevant local authority.

We acknowledge that the affirmative procedure will operate, and the order will be accompanied by a more detailed report, which we will debate in a moment. However, the underlying process is unclear—perhaps we will get some clarity from the report tomorrow. It does not seem to require any starting assessment by the local authority and the proposal then being made to the Secretary of State; that seems to have disappeared from the process. In practice that may end up as an iterative process, but if there is no right for the individual local authorities to make proposals to the Secretary of State for consideration which merits some response, what assurance do we have that this is an inclusive process? It starts from the other end of the process to the existing Section 109, so what creates an effective right for individual authorities with a case to be able to make that case and to be heard? I was anticipating an amendment from my noble friend Lady Hollis in this group but perhaps it will come in a subsequent one.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I apologise to my noble friend, but as my amendment was on the very different issue of council tax bands and I thought it was worth trying to explore that in greater detail, fairly late today I asked for it to be disaggregated. Therefore noble Lords will find that on the latest list of amendments Amendment 75A is at the very end, and it will be the last amendment to be debated on Wednesday. The noble Lord may have had an earlier set of groupings in which it was included; I pulled it out after the draft groupings had come out.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that clarification. I will just say to the Government that where my noble friend leads, Governments eventually catch up.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I do not wish to repeat anything that has been said on Amendments 31 and 32, because I am very happy with the debate we have had so far. I will draw the Minister’s attention to the very helpful words of the noble Lord, Lord Low, on Amendment 67, and will then take that and compare it to Amendment 34 and the list of public functions, which the Labour Party has identified as needed, and which I support. It starts to matter. We had a brief discussion in Committee around careers services and their role as regards the devolution of skills budgeting—what the exact responsibility of combined authorities would be as regards careers services. All that matters because it is not clear to all the organisations outside your Lordships’ House exactly what is in scope. Therefore the production of that list called for by Amendment 34 seems very important, because the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Low, were extremely important and appropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Woolmer of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation but want to say a couple of things. First, I assume that these amendments will relate to each and every agreement that will be brought forward in due course in the House. Secondly, I was reassured that the document setting out the various details would be additional to the Explanatory Memorandum, which is notoriously modest in its explanations. It would be extremely helpful to me and to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee to have the reassurance that those reports will be thorough.

I hope that the Government are able to have all success in their ventures. As the debate has gone on over the weeks, I have become more convinced than I was early on that this could well lead to some genuine devolution initiatives. Noble Lords may think that I was rather cynical at the start, but the drive and intention behind it, not least from the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and the Minister, is greatly reassuring.

I hope that these reports will be full and genuinely helpful to the House, because those will be the reports that will persuade both Houses that the devolution proposals are substantial and well founded. Of course only experience will show that as the reality, but nevertheless the parliamentary process is important because that is what will carry opinion with the Government and in the local communities.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, Amendment 33 is to be welcomed as it requires a report, as we have heard, to be laid before Parliament at the same time as the statutory instrument containing an order under Clause 6. The report will cover descriptions of any consultations and representations received and evidential and background information. Amendment 70 requires a similar report in respect of regulations arising under Clause 10. We consider these to be important amendments, which we support.

However, the amendment raises one question, which I touched upon earlier in relation to Amendment 1. The devolution process under way is happening not just necessarily under an order in Clause 6 or 10. It has been an evolving process, particularly in the case of Greater Manchester. The build-up of that devolution arrangement happened under different provisions, and that could be replicated in other deals.

We are trying to understand whether this will culminate always in one order under Clause 6 or Clause 10, or whether there are bits along the way. If the latter, that would obviously have an impact on the type of information and the type of report, and on whether there are any gaps in it. How will it work in practice?

As I said earlier, the reports could be an important component of an annual report, but I would be interested in how it all works and how it culminates always in one order which then triggers the report that we are discussing.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, for the two points that he raised and for his increasing confidence as the Bill goes along—it is reassuring to me if not to anyone else. He asked whether each and every deal would be brought forward in this way. The answer is yes. He also asked whether the reports would be in addition to the Explanatory Memorandum. Not only will they be in addition, but they will be full and detailed.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether the report plus the Explanatory Memorandum would be part of the full deal explanation, or whether it would be done piecemeal. My view at this moment—and I will correct it if it is wrong—is that once an area is ready to go forward with a devolution deal and therefore the orders that come with it, there will be a substantial report plus Explanatory Memoranda. It may be that that is added to through a future order, but that order on its own would then come through both Houses of Parliament. That is how I see it working, and I will correct it if it is not the case.